Carstens reefer


spsalso
 

An interesting bit from the MR forum:

There was a Carstens reefer. A full size one. Maybe more than one.

Anyway, there's a photo on this site (about 3/4 page down)

http://sbiii.com/rr4.html


If we're flinging the word "cute" around, it would certainly stick to this car.

I figure there's only one ice bunker, not one on each end. And I also figure the door on the other side lines up with the one on this side.



Ed

Edward Sutorik:


james murrie
 

There was a Carstens meat packing plant located in the Tideflats area of Tacoma WA. The cursive "Carstens" on the refer is very similar to the lettering used on their tractor-trailers in the 1950s.
Jim Murrie
Lakewood, WA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "spsalso" <Edwardsutorik@...> wrote:

An interesting bit from the MR forum:

There was a Carstens reefer. A full size one. Maybe more than one.

Anyway, there's a photo on this site (about 3/4 page down)

http://sbiii.com/rr4.html


If we're flinging the word "cute" around, it would certainly stick to this car.

I figure there's only one ice bunker, not one on each end. And I also figure the door on the other side lines up with the one on this side.



Ed

Edward Sutorik:


Jack Burgess
 

<An interesting bit from the MR forum:
<
<There was a Carstens reefer. A full size one. Maybe more than one.
<
<Anyway, there's a photo on this site (about 3/4 page down)
<
<http://sbiii.com/rr4.html
<
<
<If we're flinging the word "cute" around, it would certainly stick to
<this car.
<
<I figure there's only one ice bunker, not one on each end. And I also
<figure the door on the other side lines up with the one on this side.
<
<
<
<Ed
<
<Edward Sutorik

The 1913 Seattle Car and Foundry catalog (reprinted in 1974 by NorthWest
Short Line) includes a artist's drawing of a refrigerator car of the same
basic design with the offset door and lettered for Carsten's Packing Co. but
the billboard illustration filling the entire side of the car is for White
Swan Shortening with a black woman cook holding a pie and the statement
"Ain't no Hog fat in dis pie".

But the description of the car includes the statement "The interior of this
car is arranged to accommodate halves of beef of the largest size suspended
from trolleys on a track." There were three tracks with switches at the door
to allow access to all three tracks. It goes on to state "Ice boxes are
arranged at ends with provision for ventilation and complete refrigeration."

Jack Burgess


thmsdmpsy
 

It looks identical to the TCRL 108 in the Seattle Car and Foundry catalog which is listed as a steel underframe beef car built for Carstens Packing Company, albeit without the colorful paint job TCRL 108 has.  The description claims two small ice bunkers, one at each end.  Length 34 feet.  Three meat rack tracks extending the length of the car.  Diamond Arch Bar trucks.  Inside height 10 feet, 2 inches.  Westinghouse Automatic Air Brake.  Metal Bolsters. 33 inch Chilled Cast Iron wheels.  Inside hung brake beams.  Weight of car, 49,000 pounds.

Tom Dempsey, Spokane, WA




________________________________
From: james <bi291@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 3:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Carstens reefer


 

There was a Carstens meat packing plant located in the Tideflats area of Tacoma WA. The cursive "Carstens" on the refer is very similar to the lettering used on their tractor-trailers in the 1950s.
Jim Murrie
Lakewood, WA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "spsalso" <Edwardsutorik@...> wrote:

An interesting bit from the MR forum:

There was a Carstens reefer. A full size one. Maybe more than one.

Anyway, there's a photo on this site (about 3/4 page down)

http://sbiii.com/rr4.html


If we're flinging the word "cute" around, it would certainly stick to this car.

I figure there's only one ice bunker, not one on each end. And I also figure the door on the other side lines up with the one on this side.



Ed

Edward Sutorik:


Steve H <nwicfan@...>
 

I have a 1915 Bellingham WA business directory that locates a Carstens branch house there. It is at 1310 Commercial St.
 
I'm guessing that the reefer probably was used in Tacoma to Bellingham service. I don't know if Carstens had other locations.
 
My 1915 ORER lists 4 tank cars and 5 refrigerator cars for Carstens.
 
"TC Pure Lard" and "Snowcap Shortening" was a couple of their products.
 
In 1954 Hygrade Food Products Corp took them over and the Tacoma plant was closed in 1990.
 
- Steve Hedlund (modeling the EP&SW at El Paso)

--- On Wed, 3/20/13, spsalso <Edwardsutorik@aol.com> wrote:


From: spsalso <Edwardsutorik@aol.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Carstens reefer
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 3:45 PM



 



An interesting bit from the MR forum:

There was a Carstens reefer. A full size one. Maybe more than one.

Anyway, there's a photo on this site (about 3/4 page down)

http://sbiii.com/rr4.html

If we're flinging the word "cute" around, it would certainly stick to this car.

I figure there's only one ice bunker, not one on each end. And I also figure the door on the other side lines up with the one on this side.

Ed

Edward Sutorik:








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


spsalso
 

I figure there's only an ice bunker at one end because I only see an ice hatch on one end.

If there were ceiling tracks in the car and there were "track switches", then it would make sense that the doors were aligned with each other--they'd only need one area with switchwork instead of two.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Douglas Harding
 

Here is what I have on the Carstens Packing Co. There is some differences in
dates, as the different sources could not agree.



The Carstens Packing Company was founded in 1897, and was one of the early
Tacoma businesses to locate on the tideflats. In 1952 the company was sold
to Hygrade Food Products Corp. Hygrade closed its Tacoma plant in 1990.
Carstens Packing Company was the largest independent meat packing company on
the West Coast, with plants in Tacoma, Seattle and Spokane. They provided
quality assured wieners, beef, bacon, ham, sausage, lamb, pork, veal and
many other meat products.



Carstens' went under a TC Brand and handled Kimberly beef, TC bacon, pork,
lamb, Sweet-N-Tender ham, TC sausage, veal and canned meats. The Carstens
Packing Company opened on Tacoma's tideflats at 1623 East J. Street in 1903.
By 1905 Carstens was one of the largest slaughtering and packing houses on
the west coast.



Carstens Packing Company opened in Tacoma in 1903 at 1623 East "J" Street.
It became part of Hygrade Food Products in 1954, and closed in 1990.



As to the car itself, I don't have anything, but I would guess the doors are
to the left on each side, with an ice bunker in each end. You only
load/unload from one side, you want the doors so you can spot in the same
location, no matter which side of the car is dock side. Further off set
doors were probably thought to reduce the loss of cold air. Note the four
hinges per door, something not seen too often. And the door height goes to
the fascia, also something unusual for a meat reefer.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


spsalso
 

I found the drawing of T.C.R.L. 108. It shows the right side. The photo of 109 shows the left side. The car numbering implies they're in a series. Maybe.

Anyway, if I'm seeing both sides of the car, then the doors are indeed NOT aligned across the car. And, since there's no ice hatch showing to the right in the photograph, that implies there's only two ice hatches per car. And that they're on opposite corners of the car. Which gets me thinking that to ice both ends of the car, the "icers" would have to get the ice slid over to the opposite side of the car for one of the bunkers. Quell irritating!

As a final check, if anyone can find the cars' info in ORER's (I found nothing in 1926), I would appreciate it being posted here.



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Douglas Harding
 

Cannot find a listing for Carstens in a Mar 1901 or a June 1917 ORER.



They had one 6500 gal tankcar, #104 in 1919.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Larry Sexton
 

Per a 1948 Seattle newspaper ad, Carstens was still advertising and selling
their "Lucky Dog" brand of meat by-products. I don't know if that would have
been shipped via their reefers or not.



Larry Sexton


Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi All,

This is a very interesting car with the door offset to the left side of
the car. Someone thought that the doors would be opposite. This could be
true, but it could also be that the door was not opposite and the car had
only 2 ice hatches, one on each end near the door. Does anyone know for
sure and could there be plans for it anywhere?

Joel Holmes



Per a 1948 Seattle newspaper ad, Carstens was still advertising and
selling
their "Lucky Dog" brand of meat by-products. I don't know if that would
have
been shipped via their reefers or not.



Larry Sexton






Douglas Harding
 

Here is a link to the 1913 Seattle Car and Foundry catalog. You can download
a pdf in the menu box to the left. Go to page 47 to see Carstens reefer 108
in their White Swan Shortening paint scheme. The description states ice
bunkers in the ends. On page 48 is what appears to be an identical car for
Frye & Company (an early meat packer in Seattle), which states the doors are
located at diagonal corners with ice bunker in the ends.



http://archive.org/details/catalogueno300seatrich







Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


spsalso
 

I did a google search for "reporting marks" "carstens packing" and turned up a page in the February 1919 ORER.

Carstens showed a series 101-108 (5 cars) as refrigerator cars with an internal length of 34'. There were no other dimensions mentioned. There is no car listed as 109 (the one in the photo). THAT one sure doesn't look to me like it has an IL of 34'. Assuming a truck wheelbase of 5', I get an external length of 33'. 109 looks to be an orphan.

There were also 4 tank cars: 100 and 104-106


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Joe Bower <jnbower1@...>
 

Doug Harding, Yahoo Group, and attn. Jack Burgess.



Thanks Doug for the lead to the Seattle Car and Foundry Catalog, I was able
to down load it and select and print certain pages. The car specifications
are particularly detailed and complete. To Jack Burgess: I'm sure you are
aware of the illustration of their tank car for Yosemity Lumber # 1 with the
dome at the very end of the tank, page # 54. Was that because needed on the
Incline ?

Joe Bower

_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Harding
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 9:13 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Carstens reefer





Here is a link to the 1913 Seattle Car and Foundry catalog. You can download
a pdf in the menu box to the left. Go to page 47 to see Carstens reefer 108
in their White Swan Shortening paint scheme. The description states ice
bunkers in the ends. On page 48 is what appears to be an identical car for
Frye & Company (an early meat packer in Seattle), which states the doors are
located at diagonal corners with ice bunker in the ends.

http://archive.org/details/catalogueno300seatrich

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Jack Burgess
 

< To Jack Burgess:
<I'm sure you are aware of the illustration of their tank car for
<Yosemity Lumber # 1 with the dome at the very end of the tank, page #
<54. Was that because needed on the Incline ?
<
<Joe Bower

Yes, they had three of these tank cars and used them to transport Bunker C
up the incline to the logging camps for the Shays. I built a model of one of
these cars last year. The Seattle Car and Foundry Co. also built all of the
log cars for the YV (Page 36-37 of the catalog) and 6 box cars for the line.

Jack Burgess


Douglas Harding
 

OK I've been doing some more digging regarding the Carstens Company. I have
not found any evidence that the company used the reporting marks CPCX, as
seen on the photo of #109. CPCX was used by Cosden Petroleum beginning in
1937, known for Diamond, DX & Mid-Continent Oil products. Near as I can tell
Carstens used TCRL, and perhaps TCRX.



As for the photo itself, it looks like the car has been repainted, except
for the logo, as if someone was attempting to preserve it. And there are no
other markings or lettering, which makes me wonder if someone, not knowing
the proper lettering just guessed as to the reporting marks.



Reporting Marks, from ORER and other sources.

1901 ORER no listing.

1907 document for Asso of Transportation & Car Accounting Officers p 976
shows Carstens Packing Co (see Thos Carstens Refrigerator Line - TCRX)

1908, March, ORER listed as Thos Carstens Refrigerator Line - shows reefers
listed 100-110 - TCRL

1909, March listed as Carstens Packing Co.

1910, listing in Wyoming Auditor report as Thos Carstens Refrigerator Line

1913 ORER shown as Carstens Packing Co. - TCRL w/ 5 reefers 101-108, 4 tanks
101, 104-6



Lettering

c. 1900 Art Griffin decal with the following lettering:

Carstens Packing Co. Beef & Pork Packers CRL 103, P.S.E. Ry (Puget Sound
Electric Railway?)



Clover House #8883-01 dry transfer lettered as:

White Swan Shortening, TCRL 108





The Carstens Packing Company was a Meat Packer based in Tacoma WA. Here is a
Company Time Line I have created.



1890 Organized as Carstens Brothers, a small butcher shop with three
employees in Seattle

1897 The Carstens Packing Company was founded, opening a packing house near
the Grant St. Bridge

1903 relocated to Tacoma, on the Tacoma tideflats, 1623 East J St.; site of
the old Pacific Meat Co. ruins relocated in Tacoma in 1903 under the name
of Carstens Bros. Packing Co.

1904 Incorporated by Thomas Carstens

1905 it was reincorporated as Carstens Packing Co. Known as one of the
largest slaughtering and packing houses on the west coast.

1908 A new sausage kitchen was constructed, doubling the capacity of the
department. A modern three-story boarding house for the accommodation of
their employees was built with workers only being charged a nominal fee for
room and board. It is not clear whether the company also had separate dining
facilities elsewhere on plant grounds.

1909 150 cattle, 400 sheep and 300 hogs were slaughtered daily By the
decade's end, Carstens handled 1,800 cars of cattle, 600 cars of sheep and
1200 cars of hogs yearly.

1914 Purchased Empire Packing Co of Spokane WA

1914 had a fire

1916 had a fire, built new concrete structures to replace wood buildings.

1926 Oct 21, Advertised bonds for company expansion, built a new 4 story
unit to hold the sausage factory, sausage coolers, lard refinery and smoke
houses, beef coolers and beef sales coolers. Had 652 employees with packing
plants in Tacoma and Spokane, and 50 distributing branches and markets in 24
cities and towns throughout the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and
Alaska.

1931 build a new office building

1947 put a new Kartridg-Pack machine into use in mid-May for packing wieners
side-by-side, bound together by paper loops instead of the usual method of
stringing them tail-to-tail. The Kartridge-Pack had the ability to pack
3,200 pounds of wieners per 8 hour shift.

1947 June Carstens added refrigerated trucks to their fleet. The new trucks
are the first of their kind in Tacoma. They were built on Chevrolet chassis
and designed by Right of Way Auto Works of Tacoma. Designed by Carstens
personal, the trucks are called "mobile sales units".

1954 sold to Hygrade Food Products Inc.

1954 built new fertilizer production facility to replace an outmoded part of
the plant

1990 plant closed





Carstens had a lard, tallow and oleo refinery on part of its 15-acre
property. Along with a glue factory, tannery, and fertilizer plant.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Douglas Harding
 

Forgot to add, the logo painted on the Carstens reefer is the logo they used
on their delivery trucks, visible in a photo taken in the late 20's. It does
not show in photos taken in 1909 of delivery wagons. I have no idea if this
logo was ever used on a reefer, I have no photo or drawing to show.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


 

I had planned to do this prototype as a kit but put it off for lack of modeler interest. Why didn’t you guys start this thread five years ago? – Al Westerfield

From: Douglas Harding
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 7:14 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Railway_Bull_Shippers_Group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Carstens reefer


Forgot to add, the logo painted on the Carstens reefer is the logo they used
on their delivery trucks, visible in a photo taken in the late 20's. It does
not show in photos taken in 1909 of delivery wagons. I have no idea if this
logo was ever used on a reefer, I have no photo or drawing to show.

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Douglas Harding
 

Al, I wasn't doing this kind of research five years ago. Last night, after
my posting, I was sent NP freight car diagrams for two NP meat reefers that
had offset doors like the Carstens reefer. Turns out the NP had two reefer
designs with offset doors, dating from the 1930's, which ran at least into
the 40's. The NP served the Carstens meat plant, so there could be a
connection. Makes me speculate, that if the car in the photo has been
repainted by a well-meaning preservation group, it could be a NP reefer, not
a Carstens reefer.



One series, 99998-99, (yes a total of two cars) from 34/5 was a 50' single
sheathed reefer rated at 100,000lbs, with steel underframe. The other
series, 99990-91 (yes again just two cars) from 37/8, is a traditional 37'
double sheathed wood reefer rated at 80,000lbs with steel underframe. It is
this second series that looks very much like the car in the Carstens photo.



Here is a photo of an offset door NP reefer
http://www.barraclou.com/rail/cars/np_wooden.jpg



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


brianleppert@att.net
 

There are two photos with Frye & Co.'s #505 in the book To Tacoma By Trolley The Puget Sound Electric Railway by Warren Wing, published by Pacific Fast Mail in 1995, on page 91. These are views of a wreck scene. A PSERy train was crossing their bridge over the Green River when it collapsed.

The reefer is sitting somewhat horizontal in the water. An adjacent box car has smashed into the B end and is tilted up and away at about 45 degrees. A few feet of the box car's roof is overlapping the reefer's roof. An open hatch can partially be seen at that end. At the A end two hatch covers are seen.

The two photos show both sides of the reefer. They both have a door offset to the far left.

This wreck happened Oct. 7, 1914. Frye & Co.'s reefers were still listed in the July 1935 ORER but not in the April 1938 ORER.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Here is a link to the 1913 Seattle Car and Foundry catalog. You can download
a pdf in the menu box to the left. Go to page 47 to see Carstens reefer 108
in their White Swan Shortening paint scheme. The description states ice
bunkers in the ends. On page 48 is what appears to be an identical car for
Frye & Company (an early meat packer in Seattle), which states the doors are
located at diagonal corners with ice bunker in the ends.