Weaver Models 40' SS boxcar - prototype match


Mark Mathu
 

Has anyone identified the closest prototype match for Weaver Models' O scale
outside braced (...single sheathed, let's not go down _that_ path...)
6-panel 40' boxcar? Any suggestions for a close match?
http://www.weavermodels.com/page37.html
____
Mark Mathu


Benjamin Hom
 

Mark Mathu wrote:
"Has anyone identified the closest prototype match for Weaver Models' O
scale outside braced (...single sheathed, let's not go down _that_
path...) 6-panel 40' boxcar? Any suggestions for a close match?"
http://www.weavermodels.com/page37.html

Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss" 8 ft 7 in IH
prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL), and none with Dreadnaught ends or 13-
carline roofs. You can use this model as a stand-in for the B&M/MTC,
L&N and SAL cars, but be advised that roof and ends do not match these
prototypes.


Ben Hom


Scott H. Haycock
 

Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss" 8 ft 7 in IH
prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL), and none with Dreadnaught ends or 13-
carline roofs. You can use this model as a stand-in for the B&M/MTC,
L&N and SAL cars, but be advised that roof and ends do not match these
prototypes.
Ben Hom

Ben,

Anytime I see SAL mentioned, my ears perk up!

Could you advise me of the series numbers of the cars you're referencing, and any HO models that might work for these cars?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Scott H. Haycock
 

Sorry
Yahoo deleted my signature from my query to Ben. (I would hate to wind up in the anonymity cell- How would I order lunch? )


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent

----- Original Message -----








Ben Hom

Ben,

Anytime I see SAL mentioned, my ears perk up!

Could you advise me of the series numbers of the cars you're referencing, and any HO models that might work for these cars?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
"Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss" 8 ft 7 in IH
prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL)..."

Scott Haycock asked:
"Anytime I see SAL mentioned, my ears perk up!
Could you advise me of the series numbers of the cars you're
referencing, and any HO models that might work for these cars?"

SAL Classes B-3, B-4, and B-5. HO scale kits available from Sunshine:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun91c.pdf


Ben Hom


Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
 

The Great Northern had a "Pratt truss" 40' box series 31000-31499 built 1927 with Dreadnaught ends although they were 3/5 instead of 4/4, 9 ft IH. They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex) and to start with wood doors with the metal band a little further down (accomodated the Faceing Goat herald on the door). Received Youngstown steel doors in the 1930's. The side braceing was Z-shape rather than hat sections and the metal brace at the bottom corners of the side were triangular steel plates. The GN cars had a shallow fish belly underframe.

There is a George Werkema photo in the GNRHS archives:

http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Werkema_Photos/DispForm.aspx?ID=451&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egn%2Dnpjointarchive%2Eorg%2FLists%2FGN%5FWerkema%5FPhotos%2FAllItems%2Easpx%3FView%3D%7BA9C8C7C7%2D0FFE%2D4010%2DA4E5%2D691AB90827E8%7D%26FilterField1%3DEquipment%255Fx0020%255FType%26FilterValue1%3DBox%2520car%26FilterField2%3DEquip%255Fx0020%255FNo%255Fx002e%255F%26FilterValue2%3D31388&ContentTypeId=0x0100FDAB9398FE439241A3F56A0D93FDCC1B

Staffan Ehnbom

----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:23 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Weaver Models 40' SS boxcar - prototype match



Mark Mathu wrote:
"Has anyone identified the closest prototype match for Weaver Models' O
scale outside braced (...single sheathed, let's not go down _that_
path...) 6-panel 40' boxcar? Any suggestions for a close match?"
http://www.weavermodels.com/page37.html

Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss" 8 ft 7 in IH
prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL), and none with Dreadnaught ends or 13-
carline roofs. You can use this model as a stand-in for the B&M/MTC,
L&N and SAL cars, but be advised that roof and ends do not match these
prototypes.

Ben Hom


Clark Propst
 

Off the top of my head a 'look alike' might be possible using a F&C B&M kit? Maybe adding a X29 roof? Micro Scale makes/made SAL decals.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Scott H. Haycock " <shhaycock@...> wrote:

Sorry
Yahoo deleted my signature from my query to Ben. (I would hate to wind up in the anonymity cell- How would I order lunch? )


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent
----- Original Message -----








Ben Hom

Ben,

Anytime I see SAL mentioned, my ears perk up!

Could you advise me of the series numbers of the cars you're referencing, and any HO models that might work for these cars?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Misc Clark
 

Hi Staffan - you said "They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex)"...
I am not familiar with that roof style...can you point me to an online
reference(s)?
TIA,
(another "Clark"), Clark Cone


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@telia.com>wrote:

**


The Great Northern had a "Pratt truss" 40' box series 31000-31499 built
1927 with Dreadnaught ends although they were 3/5 instead of 4/4, 9 ft IH.
They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex) and to start with wood
doors with the metal band a little further down (accomodated the Faceing
Goat herald on the door). Received Youngstown steel doors in the 1930's.
The side braceing was Z-shape rather than hat sections and the metal brace
at the bottom corners of the side were triangular steel plates. The GN cars
had a shallow fish belly underframe.

There is a George Werkema photo in the GNRHS archives:


http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Werkema_Photos/DispForm.aspx?ID=451&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egn%2Dnpjointarchive%2Eorg%2FLists%2FGN%5FWerkema%5FPhotos%2FAllItems%2Easpx%3FView%3D%7BA9C8C7C7%2D0FFE%2D4010%2DA4E5%2D691AB90827E8%7D%26FilterField1%3DEquipment%255Fx0020%255FType%26FilterValue1%3DBox%2520car%26FilterField2%3DEquip%255Fx0020%255FNo%255Fx002e%255F%26FilterValue2%3D31388&ContentTypeId=0x0100FDAB9398FE439241A3F56A0D93FDCC1B

Staffan Ehnbom


----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:23 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Weaver Models 40' SS boxcar - prototype match

Mark Mathu wrote:
"Has anyone identified the closest prototype match for Weaver Models' O
scale outside braced (...single sheathed, let's not go down _that_
path...) 6-panel 40' boxcar? Any suggestions for a close match?"
http://www.weavermodels.com/page37.html

Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss" 8 ft 7 in IH
prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL), and none with Dreadnaught ends or 13-
carline roofs. You can use this model as a stand-in for the B&M/MTC,
L&N and SAL cars, but be advised that roof and ends do not match these
prototypes.

Ben Hom





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Benjamin Hom
 

Staffan Ehnbom wrote:
"The Great Northern had a "Pratt truss" 40' box series 31000-31499 built
1927 with Dreadnaught ends although they were 3/5 instead of 4/4, 9 ft IH.
They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex) and to start with wood
doors with the metal band a little further down (accomodated the Faceing
Goat herald on the door). Received Youngstown steel doors in the 1930's.
The side braceing was Z-shape rather than hat sections and the metal brace
at the bottom corners of the side were triangular steel plates. The GN cars
had a shallow fish belly underframe.

There is a George Werkema photo in the GNRHS archives:
http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Werkema_Photos/DispForm.aspx?ID=451&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egn%2Dnpjointarchive%2Eorg%2FLists%2FGN%5FWerkema%5FPhotos%2FAllItems%2Easpx%3FView%3D%7BA9C8C7C7%2D0FFE%2D4010%2DA4E5%2D691AB90827E8%7D%26FilterField1%3DEquipment%255Fx0020%255FType%26FilterValue1%3DBox%2520car%26FilterField2%3DEquip%255Fx0020%255FNo%255Fx002e%255F%26FilterValue2%3D31388&ContentTypeId=0x0100FDAB9398FE439241A3F56A0D93FDCC1B


Clark Cone asked:
"Hi Staffan - you said "They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex)"...
I am not familiar with that roof style...can you point me to an online
reference(s)?"

Also known as Murphy XLA.
FWIW, Sunshine offers kits for the GN 31000-series cars in HO scale:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun77.pdf


Ben Hom


Misc Clark
 

Thanks, Ben! Murphy XLA sounds more accessible!


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Benjamin Hom <b.hom@att.net> wrote:

**


Staffan Ehnbom wrote:
"The Great Northern had a "Pratt truss" 40' box series 31000-31499 built
1927 with Dreadnaught ends although they were 3/5 instead of 4/4, 9 ft IH.
They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex) and to start with wood
doors with the metal band a little further down (accomodated the Faceing
Goat herald on the door). Received Youngstown steel doors in the 1930's.
The side braceing was Z-shape rather than hat sections and the metal brace
at the bottom corners of the side were triangular steel plates. The GN cars
had a shallow fish belly underframe.

There is a George Werkema photo in the GNRHS archives:

http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Werkema_Photos/DispForm.aspx?ID=451&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egn%2Dnpjointarchive%2Eorg%2FLists%2FGN%5FWerkema%5FPhotos%2FAllItems%2Easpx%3FView%3D%7BA9C8C7C7%2D0FFE%2D4010%2DA4E5%2D691AB90827E8%7D%26FilterField1%3DEquipment%255Fx0020%255FType%26FilterValue1%3DBox%2520car%26FilterField2%3DEquip%255Fx0020%255FNo%255Fx002e%255F%26FilterValue2%3D31388&ContentTypeId=0x0100FDAB9398FE439241A3F56A0D93FDCC1B

Clark Cone asked:

"Hi Staffan - you said "They had 13 carline roofs (Murphy pivoted flex)"...
I am not familiar with that roof style...can you point me to an online
reference(s)?"

Also known as Murphy XLA.
FWIW, Sunshine offers kits for the GN 31000-series cars in HO scale:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun77.pdf

Ben Hom



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


David
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:
SAL Classes B-3, B-4, and B-5. HO scale kits available from Sunshine:
http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun91c.pdf
Were available, at least. Present and future availability is still an open question, to my knowledge.

David Thompson


Mark Mathu
 

Ben Hom wrote:
http://www.weavermodels.com/page37.html
Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss"
8 ft 7 in IH prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL), and none
with Dreadnaught ends or 13-carline roofs. You can use
this model as a stand-in for the B&M/MTC, L&N and SAL
cars, but be advised that roof and ends do not match
these prototypes.
To the untrained eye (such as mine), how can a person identify the Weaver Models boxcar as 8'-7" IH?
____
Mark Mathu


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mark_mathu" <mark@...> wrote:



Ben Hom wrote:
http://www.weavermodels.com/page37.html
Unfortunately, there aren't that many "Pratt truss"
8 ft 7 in IH prototypes (B&M/MTC, L&N, SAL), and none
with Dreadnaught ends or 13-carline roofs. You can use
this model as a stand-in for the B&M/MTC, L&N and SAL
cars, but be advised that roof and ends do not match
these prototypes.
To the untrained eye (such as mine), how can a person identify the Weaver Models boxcar as 8'-7" IH?
____
Mark Mathu
I think everyone is just assuming that since the sides look like the hat-section Pratt truss framing of the 1923 ARA car, that that's what was copied. But with Weaver these days, who knows... the sides may have been stretched to fit existing ends.

Dennis


Benjamin Hom
 

Mark Mathu asked:
"To the untrained eye (such as mine), how can a person identify the
Weaver Models boxcar as 8'-7" IH?"

Easy way? Take the applicable hi-rail or scale Atlas/Middle Division
PRR Class X29 boxcar and couple it to the Weaver model.

How to train your eye? Keep in mind the height of a house car
affects its proportions. A 40 ft car with an 8 ft 7 IH is
less "chunky" than a 40 ft car with a 10 ft IH:
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/prrx29main.html
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/hptd424main.html

Even though these cars appear to be identical at first glance, the
proportions are different. Don't sell short your ability to perceive
this difference - even though it's only 1 ft 5 in (4.95 mm in HO),
your brain can sense the different proportions of both cars, even if
they aren't side-by-side.


Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
"I think everyone is just assuming that since the sides look like the
hat-section Pratt truss framing of the 1923 ARA car, that that's what
was copied. But with Weaver these days, who knows... the sides may have
been stretched to fit existing ends."

I'll buy reusing existing ends from another model:
http://www.weavermodels.com/page38.html

However, this car still has the proportions of a lower IH boxcar (8 ft
7 in), and does not have the proportions of one of the taller "Pratt
Truss" prototypes (ex: SP Class B-50-15/16).
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/sp37582main.html

I'm still standing by my assetion that this model has no prototype.


Ben Hom


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ben Hom wrote:
However, this car still has the proportions of a lower IH boxcar (8 ft 7 in), and does not have the proportions of one of the taller "Pratt Truss" prototypes (ex: SP Class B-50-15/16).
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/sp37582main.html
Remember that the SP cars like this are NOT the ARA standard, but were 6 inches taller inside.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Could the 'prototype' have been another model? Perhaps one of the Train Miniatures? :-)
It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer copied someone else's model.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@att.net>

I'm still standing by my assetion that this model has no prototype.

Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
However, this car still has the proportions of a lower IH boxcar (8 ft 7 in),
nd does not have the proportions of one of the taller "Pratt Truss" prototypes
(ex: SP Class B-50-15/16).
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/sp37582main.html

Tony Thompson added:
"Remember that the SP cars like this are NOT the ARA standard, but were 6 inches

taller inside."

My point exactly!


Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Could the 'prototype' have been another model? Perhaps one of the Train
Miniatures? :-)
It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer copied someone else's model. "

That was my first thought this morning, but the Walthers/T-M model had Z-section
"Howe truss" sides and different ends (DS, SS, or 3/3/3 Dreadnaught ends).  Not
a copy of either version of the MDC SS boxcar either.


Ben Hom


Jack Mullen
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:



Dennis Storzek wrote:
"I think everyone is just assuming that since the sides look like the
hat-section Pratt truss framing of the 1923 ARA car, that that's what
was copied. But with Weaver these days, who knows... the sides may have
been stretched to fit existing ends."

I'll buy reusing existing ends from another model:
http://www.weavermodels.com/page38.html

However, this car still has the proportions of a lower IH boxcar (8 ft
7 in), and does not have the proportions of one of the taller "Pratt
Truss" prototypes (ex: SP Class B-50-15/16).
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/sp37582main.html

I'm still standing by my assetion that this model has no prototype.


Ben Hom
I think this single-sheathed car, the steel-sided car Ben mentioned, and a wood-sided reefer http://www.weavermodels.com/page36.html
all originated with Crown Metal Products a few decades ago (maybe the '80s?), and came to Weaver later. They seem to share the same dimensions and ends, with different roofs and sides. I think looking for the prototype is a wild goose chase.

IIRC,the reefer resembles the MDT composite reefers built c'40. The steel box is sorta like a 1932 AAR, but shorter, I think. I've thought of these cars as being around 9' IH, but I sure could be wrong about a few inches. I don't recall whether I ever measured one.
To me, the sides of the single-sheathed car would have been worthy of a kitbash if it weren't for the overly prominent joints between boards. Another missed opportunity for the scale community. (descends from soapbox)


Jack Mullen