With all the discussion of the demise of Floquil it got me wondering has anyone ever considered recording railroad colors in a paint independent way? The latest announcement is not the first time we have lost a paint line, and with concerns about lacquers in some places we may be barred more options in the future. Even before Floquil’s demise the concerns about color drift of the product have been expressed on this forum.

So the question is has anyone ever considered Pantone or some other independent scheme for denoting the colors. I am particularly thinking of folks with paint chips or other data that represents the real color.

I realize that a large number of factors from fading and weathering of the prototype, the type of film that was used to take the photo, all the way to the type of lighting on a layout impact our color perception but having a basis to start would help.

A lot of us base our formula on an article about building a model of a particular car, or someone’s published mix for a particular railroads color. With the loss of Floquil a lot of these sources have been invalidated, and as we build up new approaches perhaps figuring something not dependant on a paint manufacturer should be considered.

Don Burn

I think Don’s idea here is an excellent one, but the main question is who and where will the information be recorded? And how can it be ensured that it will remain accessible. Think about the model railroad publication index which, I understand, is again unavailable.



The other thing is that many of the colors we’d like most to be able to be sure we’re right on are simply disappearing. Recently, I was contacted about the correct colors for the ERIE railroad’s structures. They were typically painted two shades of green – which did NOT match the later application of two-tone green to passenger equipment – with red window sash. One of the more frustrating things that has happened recently is that an ERIE depot was restored, by a HISTORICAL SOCIETY, and they did not have the sense to find some piece of wood, somewhere in the building, that was painted the original colors and by how it was assembled, protected from fading, so they themselves could match the colors when the building was restored. The building was painted to “match” the colors shown on some old color slides someone had taken in the 40s or 50s. So, while the building is reasonably well restored, the colors look a little cartoony, because they were not matched to anything with any reliability.



I freely acknowledge that the “cartoony” colors MIGHT be dead on. But I doubt it.





Schuyler



Oh, BTW, while the depot in question was a passenger depot, it is certain that STEAM powered FREIGHT trains passed by, with FREIGHT CARS in the consist. *whew*



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Don Burn
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 3:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Railroad colors and the demise of Floquil





With all the discussion of the demise of Floquil it got me wondering has anyone ever considered recording railroad colors in a paint independent way? The latest announcement is not the first time we have lost a paint line, and with concerns about lacquers in some places we may be barred more options in the future. Even before Floquil’s demise the concerns about color drift of the product have been expressed on this forum.

So the question is has anyone ever considered Pantone or some other independent scheme for denoting the colors. I am particularly thinking of folks with paint chips or other data that represents the real color.

I realize that a large number of factors from fading and weathering of the prototype, the type of film that was used to take the photo, all the way to the type of lighting on a layout impact our color perception but having a basis to start would help.

A lot of us base our formula on an article about building a model of a particular car, or someone’s published mix for a particular railroads color. With the loss of Floquil a lot of these sources have been invalidated, and as we build up new approaches perhaps figuring something not dependant on a paint manufacturer should be considered.

Don Burn





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
"Think about the model railroad publication index which, I
understand, is again unavailable."

Wrong. It's hosted on the Kalmbach website at
http://trc.trains.com/Train%20Magazine%20Index.aspx

The old URL will still get you there:
http://index.mrmag.com

The one catch is you have to register on the Kalmbach website.


Ben Hom

Thanks, ben.



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of benjaminfrank_hom
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 6:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Railroad colors and the demise of Floquil





Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
"Think about the model railroad publication index which, I
understand, is again unavailable."

Wrong. It's hosted on the Kalmbach website at
http://trc.trains.com/Train%20Magazine%20Index.aspx

The old URL will still get you there:
http://index.mrmag.com

The one catch is you have to register on the Kalmbach website.

Ben Hom

Railroad color chip like from dupont paint give you a display look of a
railroad color
dupont like most paints today are *Acrylic back in the 1930 to 60's was **
Enamel
*
*base paints

*
* tom
*



On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Don Burn <burn@...> wrote:

**


With all the discussion of the demise of Floquil it got me wondering has
anyone ever considered recording railroad colors in a paint independent
way? The latest announcement is not the first time we have lost a paint
line, and with concerns about lacquers in some places we may be barred more
options in the future. Even before Floquil�s demise the concerns about
color drift of the product have been expressed on this forum.

So the question is has anyone ever considered Pantone or some other
independent scheme for denoting the colors. I am particularly thinking of
folks with paint chips or other data that represents the real color.

I realize that a large number of factors from fading and weathering of the
prototype, the type of film that was used to take the photo, all the way to
the type of lighting on a layout impact our color perception but having a
basis to start would help.

A lot of us base our formula on an article about building a model of a
particular car, or someone�s published mix for a particular railroads
color. With the loss of Floquil a lot of these sources have been
invalidated, and as we build up new approaches perhaps figuring something
not dependant on a paint manufacturer should be considered.

Don Burn

--
*Thomas j Cataldo*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DTM

Direct to metal freight car enamel. DuPont. Also Mobil and others.
Tom Birkett
Bartlesville

Pantone (PMS) and Munsel systems are commonly used by those of us doing restoration feasibility studies, but there are issues.

Pantone was developed for printer's ink... and until recently when extended to paint (and fabric) was too limited for what we do... It has gotten better recently... but the best match for "pullman color" is still a version of black.

Munsel, developed for architects covered a bigger range of color, but is not common, so while it may accurately describe a color, it is difficult to make it useful in the real world.

Alternately, we can preserve samples of materiel, either "drift cards", Samples of original material with paint, or match cards made using modern artist paints, on a stable media... this preserves accurate information, but is hard to disseminate (you need to have access to the physical sample).

So, in any case, there are two issues, 1) accurately recording the color, and 2) making that information available.

A color formula is not a good way of describing a color... it will always be subject to changes or abandonment of the paint system in question.

Randy Hees
www.pacificng.com
www.rypn.org
www.spcrr.org

Don:

I spent my working life in advertising production. There were many
attempts for an ironclad color system. The world settled into the Pantone
system which seemed to be the best of a bad thing. The system it self was
fraught with limitations and caveats. It turned out to be the best for
print reproduction. HOWEVER it was mainly designed to be a simplified
offshoot of the Muncel color system which had a 'hue' line then added white
to produce tints and 'black to produce shades. The Pantone system
originally had about 80 hues and variously 2 to 4 tint shades for each.
Seems like a lot to the uninitiated but almost immediately it became
obvious that it might work for offset printing that used prepared colors
but for most color printing (lithography
that was made up of percentages of only four colors ) it was totally
inadequate. So there became a 'match in process' pantone system. Soon it
became obvious that glossy inks on glossy paper were a totally different
color from the same number of a mat ink on mat paper. what about mat ink on
glossy paper an art directors delight? And only 80 colors? ok we came out
with the decorators version with hundreds of more colors. Try an ink for a
box on kraft color box board paper. The advent of metallics and fluorescent
colors further muddied the water. Oh and lets not forget the 'color 'of the
light something is viewed in....witness various 'strict color temperature
viewing systems'. And the effects of weathering mainly ultra violet
fading....As a death knell came the CRT where color is subtractive and
based on red green and blue not pigments' red yellow and blue, and must be
constantly calibrated to be of any use.
Then let us start on our imprecise color nomenclature....I could go on but
my head hurts.

See the scene in Mr.Blandings Builds his Dream House where his wife is
dreamily describing the colors she wants painted in various rooms to the
painter. After a six word description the painter turns to his assistant
and says 'yellow'.

I have as many color stories as there are colors.

Color is way too complicated to be left to those who "remember it". And the
machines do not help but add another set of variables.

Ron Parisi


On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Don Burn <burn@...> wrote:

**


With all the discussion of the demise of Floquil it got me wondering has
anyone ever considered recording railroad colors in a paint independent
way? The latest announcement is not the first time we have lost a paint
line, and with concerns about lacquers in some places we may be barred more
options in the future. Even before Floquil�s demise the concerns about
color drift of the product have been expressed on this forum.

So the question is has anyone ever considered Pantone or some other
independent scheme for denoting the colors. I am particularly thinking of
folks with paint chips or other data that represents the real color.

I realize that a large number of factors from fading and weathering of the
prototype, the type of film that was used to take the photo, all the way to
the type of lighting on a layout impact our color perception but having a
basis to start would help.

A lot of us base our formula on an article about building a model of a
particular car, or someone�s published mix for a particular railroads
color. With the loss of Floquil a lot of these sources have been
invalidated, and as we build up new approaches perhaps figuring something
not dependant on a paint manufacturer should be considered.

Don Burn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., "RandyH" <hees@...> wrote:

Pantone (PMS) and Munsel systems are commonly used by those of us doing restoration feasibility studies, but there are issues.

Pantone was developed for printer's ink... and until recently when extended to paint (and fabric) was too limited for what we do... It has gotten better recently... but the best match for "pullman color" is still a version of black.

Munsel, developed for architects covered a bigger range of color, but is not common, so while it may accurately describe a color, it is difficult to make it useful in the real world.

Alternately, we can preserve samples of materiel, either "drift cards", Samples of original material with paint, or match cards made using modern artist paints, on a stable media... this preserves accurate information, but is hard to disseminate (you need to have access to the physical sample).

So, in any case, there are two issues, 1) accurately recording the color, and 2) making that information available.

A color formula is not a good way of describing a color... it will always be subject to changes or abandonment of the paint system in question.

Randy Hees

As one who shelled out $100 or so twenty years ago for a Pantone color swatch book, I couldn't agree with Randy more. Attempting to use it to develop color matches for covered hoppers (admittedly post 1960 covered hoppers) no matter how many shades of gray the Pantone book contained, the prototype had many more. I'm sure there are at least as much variety in shades of freightcar red. Telling someone that a car matches Pantone 485C is hardly more precise than just telling them it's bright red.

The Munsell system, would likely give better results, but Munsell books are considerably harder to come by than Pantone, and definitely more expensive.

It used to be that if you had the original paint codes, you could contact the manufacturer and have a reasonably good chance of obtaining a color sample card. Those days are gone. The paint lines that would have been used in the era of our interest have been reformulated at least twice; first in the seventies to exclude pigments that contained heavy metals (oxides of lead, chromium, and cadmium) and again more recently to drastically lower the VOC content of the paint. The paint manufacturers are simply not interested in preserving their historic colors, they figure if a color hasn't been ordered since 1960, there is no need to create a perfect match. Computer color matching has actually exacerbated the problem; last time I tried to get color samples from DuPont, they simply said samples of the historic code were not available, and If I needed to match something, send a painted part and they'd be happy to match to it. That's all well and good if I'm restoring a historic coach and can extract a good sample, but absolutely worthless if I want to see the sample so I know what the code called out on a drawing actually looked like.

The best thing all of us can do at the moment is save whatever historical samples we have, make sure their provenance stays with them, and make arrangements that these samples should eventually end up in the collection of a museum or historical society. There have been several railroad historical societies that have had samples in their archives matched and new cards made for dissemination to their members. This system isn't perfect; it is limited by the accuracy of the matching equipment, and adds one more level of error to any other matching project. However, it isn't the last word on the subject; since the organization still retains the original, they can always do the matching project again when technology improves.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek wrote:

As one who shelled out $100 or so twenty years ago for a Pantone color swatch book, I couldn't agree with Randy more. Attempting to use it to develop color matches for covered hoppers (admittedly post 1960 covered hoppers) no matter how many shades of gray the Pantone book contained, the prototype had many more. I'm sure there are at least as much variety in shades of freightcar red. Telling someone that a car matches Pantone 485C is hardly more precise than just telling them it's bright red.

But Dennis, note what the Pantone panels say, in the Process Color guide. They give a set of numbers for percentage C, M, Y, and K. Any color professional can look at a particular color and say, it needs another 2% cyan. The Pantone number really only tells a printer what to mix and what to match. You are NOT limited to just the exact Pantone colors. Having watched advertising professionals do what I'm describing (when they have to match an existing commercial color, say, Campbell's Soup red), I know this works. We have done it also in some of our book work.
I don't dispute what Dennis and Ron Parisi are saying, and they are right about DIFFICULTIES, but they are leaving the impression that NOTHING can be done. Tain't so.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history