3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars


Tom Madden
 

Ben Hom wrote:
Too much effort is being expended cursing the darkness
rather than lighting candles. Some folks around here need to spend
time working on their kit stashes and sharing it with everyone
instead of sitting at the computer bemoaning the fate of the hobby.
OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden


Jack Burgess
 

<OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been
<working on:
<http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg
<
<I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View
<it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
<http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf
<
<Tom Madden

That is very cool work Tom! I was impressed with your first efforts you
shared during your Cocoa Beach clinic but the work since then is even more
impressive. Thanks for the update!

Jack Burgess


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Tom,
Outstanding, I am drooling as to when this might be available. I assume this might be masters for resin kits?
Also how are the roofs, hatches, etc. for Branchline cars coming along. I have a note glued to my computer desk dated 6-20-12 [grin]

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
 

I have several question.

Can you give us some idea as to the cost? Everyone please keep in mind he is not using some $1600 printer, but would have to amortize the cost of a very expensive printer in to the cost of goods sold.

I have used shapeways.com for many items, and with great to good results. Orientation is a issue with shapeways, and orientation is VERY important. I have a $1600 3d printer and, at first, it took several attempts to get a good print. With experience comes knowledge, and most of my items print correct the first time now.

You can see many of my 3d printed items at nvrr49.blogspot.com, and I recently put up an adaptation of a clinic I put on at an NMRA regional.

Kent Hurley, KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden


tjcataldo
 

DO THEM IN N Scale too we have cash to buy them

tom cataldo


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:07 PM, pullmanboss <pullmanboss@yahoo.com> wrote:

**


Ben Hom wrote:
Too much effort is being expended cursing the darkness
rather than lighting candles. Some folks around here need to spend
time working on their kit stashes and sharing it with everyone
instead of sitting at the computer bemoaning the fate of the hobby.
OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been
working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it
at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden




--
*Thomas j Cataldo*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Tom

Fantastic! Would the parts shown become masters for conventional
rubber molds, or do you envision 3D printing as a production process?
I only ask because you added Archer rivets and I wonder if that is
something modelers would be willing to do (since the patterns on a
tank car are somewhat esoteric).

Tim O'Connor

Ben Hom wrote:
Too much effort is being expended cursing the darkness
rather than lighting candles. Some folks around here need to spend
time working on their kit stashes and sharing it with everyone
instead of sitting at the computer bemoaning the fate of the hobby.
OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden


michaelegross <michaelEGross@...>
 

Wow, that is extraordinary work. Well done!

Michael Gross
La Canada, CA


Jim Barnes
 

WOW!  I'm starting to think these tank cars as a kit will become a reality.  Fantastic Tom
Jim Barnes

Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tom Madden
 

Many thanks for all the kind words, both on list and via private email. I'll try a catch-all response to clarify a few things and answer the questions.

The parts in the photos before the prototype shot of the running board supports are all 3D printed masters with Archer rivets added. The parts in the last two photos (the one showing all five parts and the one showing them dry-fitted) are first generation resin castings made from those masters. Those first generation castings will become production masters after I add a few more details and make sure everything fits properly.

From my standpoint as a resin caster the original 3D printed part only needs to get me through the Archer rivet application stage. At that point I'll make a mold and work with resin castings from then on. There are two reasons for this. First, the 3D printing processes that are capable of rendering the level of detail shown in my photos use materials that are much too brittle or unstable for end-product use, and the processes that do use suitable materials can't render the required level of detail. Second, Archer rivets are wonderful, but they *will* chip off with careless handling and, in my view, aren't trustworthy on a master from which 15 or 20 molds might be made. So my designs allow for at least two generations of mold and casting shrinkage, and I use first generation resin castings rather than printed originals as production masters.

Yes, the idea is to market two resin kits, one of which will make a Tk-G or Tk-H, and the other to make either a Tk-I or Tk-J. Each kit will have a tank with appropriate details and two domes. I intend to do the later versions of the Tk-G and -H, with center tank anchors, rather than as-delivered with head blocks and diagonal tank hold-down straps. The diagonal strap anchor castings on the top of the tank will be there, of course. A few things have to be worked out - the running board supports, which in this design are cosmetic rather than structural, and the running board steps might best be made of brass, but whether from formed strip or photo-etching remains to be determined.

As Kent Hurley indicated, these parts were not made on $1600 machines. Or on $16,000 machines. As many of you know, in my post-retirement career I consult part time for a local rapid prototyping company and have access (but not free access) to some pretty amazing technology. We can make parts using stereolithography (SLA), selective laser sintering (SLS) and PolyJet. We don't yet have any MultiJet machines (like PolyJet but with higher resolution), so I use Shapeways for that technology. At this stage of their development I wouldn't consider buying any consumer-grade 3D printer. They do have a lot of gee whiz appeal and are great for making decent 1:1 objects and shapes, but in this hobby we make miniatures, not full-size objects. (In the trade, the consumer-grade 3D printers are called "computer controlled hot glue guns".) Pay attention to the jewelers who use 3D printing. Their needs are similar to ours, so follow their lead.

Now if you will indulge a bit of philosophy…. I am a competent modeler, have become passably competent in 3D CAD, and have expertise in resin casting and mold making. When it comes to casting I can look at a part, visualize how the resin will flow, where the parting line needs to be, where the gate and vents should be located, and how the part should be oriented in the mold. I've also been intimately involved in the design of a very complex product line, the Branchline heavyweight Pullman kits. So I have a pretty good view of the whole process, from concept through manufacturing and final assembly. My gripe with resin kits in general is that the patterns are created but not designed, and the kits themselves, the aggregate collections of parts needed to create models, are seldom engineered with any consideration for ease of assembly. That's understandable because, traditionally, patterns for resin casting have been created by expert scratch builders. And scratchbuilding involves a lot of "make it up as I go along". Also, even with one-piece bodies, many parts are still made by flat casting and you can't include mounting bosses or alignment keys on the backs of flat cast parts.

Tank cars are considered very difficult resin kits to assemble. I've tried to break a complex model into parts that are straightforward to cast, and include registration and alignment features. All those notches, grooves, posts and apertures in the parts have a purpose. Drill and tap the bottom of the dome mounting boss and the subassembly of upper & lower tank shells, running board and dome can be held together in perfect alignment with a single 1-72 machine screw. The tank supports that mount on top of the underframe ("fiddly bits" awaiting application of Archer rivets) are keyed to it, and the underframe is keyed to the lower tank shell. Holes will be spotted for grab irons and handrail posts, and a forming jig provided for making the offset bends in the end handrails. You'll still have to remove flash from the parts, but once that's done the assembly should go quickly.

Might be a Prototype Rails clinic in all this - Designing for 3D Printing, including an overview of the 3D printing processes appropriate to our hobby....

Tom Madden


O Fenton Wells
 

Pretty awsome Tom! I tip my hat to you. Well done.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:23 PM, pullmanboss <pullmanboss@yahoo.com> wrote:

**


Many thanks for all the kind words, both on list and via private email.
I'll try a catch-all response to clarify a few things and answer the
questions.

The parts in the photos before the prototype shot of the running board
supports are all 3D printed masters with Archer rivets added. The parts in
the last two photos (the one showing all five parts and the one showing
them dry-fitted) are first generation resin castings made from those
masters. Those first generation castings will become production masters
after I add a few more details and make sure everything fits properly.

From my standpoint as a resin caster the original 3D printed part only
needs to get me through the Archer rivet application stage. At that point
I'll make a mold and work with resin castings from then on. There are two
reasons for this. First, the 3D printing processes that are capable of
rendering the level of detail shown in my photos use materials that are
much too brittle or unstable for end-product use, and the processes that do
use suitable materials can't render the required level of detail. Second,
Archer rivets are wonderful, but they *will* chip off with careless
handling and, in my view, aren't trustworthy on a master from which 15 or
20 molds might be made. So my designs allow for at least two generations of
mold and casting shrinkage, and I use first generation resin castings
rather than printed originals as production masters.

Yes, the idea is to market two resin kits, one of which will make a Tk-G
or Tk-H, and the other to make either a Tk-I or Tk-J. Each kit will have a
tank with appropriate details and two domes. I intend to do the later
versions of the Tk-G and -H, with center tank anchors, rather than
as-delivered with head blocks and diagonal tank hold-down straps. The
diagonal strap anchor castings on the top of the tank will be there, of
course. A few things have to be worked out - the running board supports,
which in this design are cosmetic rather than structural, and the running
board steps might best be made of brass, but whether from formed strip or
photo-etching remains to be determined.

As Kent Hurley indicated, these parts were not made on $1600 machines. Or
on $16,000 machines. As many of you know, in my post-retirement career I
consult part time for a local rapid prototyping company and have access
(but not free access) to some pretty amazing technology. We can make parts
using stereolithography (SLA), selective laser sintering (SLS) and PolyJet.
We don't yet have any MultiJet machines (like PolyJet but with higher
resolution), so I use Shapeways for that technology. At this stage of their
development I wouldn't consider buying any consumer-grade 3D printer. They
do have a lot of gee whiz appeal and are great for making decent 1:1
objects and shapes, but in this hobby we make miniatures, not full-size
objects. (In the trade, the consumer-grade 3D printers are called "computer
controlled hot glue guns".) Pay attention to the jewelers who use 3D
printing. Their needs are similar to ours, so follow their lead.

Now if you will indulge a bit of philosophy. I am a competent modeler,
have become passably competent in 3D CAD, and have expertise in resin
casting and mold making. When it comes to casting I can look at a part,
visualize how the resin will flow, where the parting line needs to be,
where the gate and vents should be located, and how the part should be
oriented in the mold. I've also been intimately involved in the design of a
very complex product line, the Branchline heavyweight Pullman kits. So I
have a pretty good view of the whole process, from concept through
manufacturing and final assembly. My gripe with resin kits in general is
that the patterns are created but not designed, and the kits themselves,
the aggregate collections of parts needed to create models, are seldom
engineered with any consideration for ease of assembly. That's
understandable because, traditionally, patterns for resin casting have been
created by expert scratch builders. And scratchbuilding involves a lot of
"make it up as I go along". Also, even with one-piece bodies, many parts
are still made by flat casting and you can't include mounting bosses or
alignment keys on the backs of flat cast parts.

Tank cars are considered very difficult resin kits to assemble. I've tried
to break a complex model into parts that are straightforward to cast, and
include registration and alignment features. All those notches, grooves,
posts and apertures in the parts have a purpose. Drill and tap the bottom
of the dome mounting boss and the subassembly of upper & lower tank shells,
running board and dome can be held together in perfect alignment with a
single 1-72 machine screw. The tank supports that mount on top of the
underframe ("fiddly bits" awaiting application of Archer rivets) are keyed
to it, and the underframe is keyed to the lower tank shell. Holes will be
spotted for grab irons and handrail posts, and a forming jig provided for
making the offset bends in the end handrails. You'll still have to remove
flash from the parts, but once that's done the assembly should go quickly.

Might be a Prototype Rails clinic in all this - Designing for 3D Printing,
including an overview of the 3D printing processes appropriate to our
hobby....

Tom Madden




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Robert kirkham
 

Yes this is very nice work Tom and I appreciated your explanation of how you
went about certain steps. Funny this thread is going on at the same time
the topic of kits no longer being available runs. I suppose the medium
matters to cost and convenience, but I feel very hopeful about the resin and
scratch build side of the hobby.

Rob Kirkham

-----Original Message-----
From: O Fenton Wells
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:31 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Pretty awsome Tom! I tip my hat to you. Well done.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:23 PM, pullmanboss <pullmanboss@yahoo.com> wrote:

**


Many thanks for all the kind words, both on list and via private email.
I'll try a catch-all response to clarify a few things and answer the
questions.

The parts in the photos before the prototype shot of the running board
supports are all 3D printed masters with Archer rivets added. The parts in
the last two photos (the one showing all five parts and the one showing
them dry-fitted) are first generation resin castings made from those
masters. Those first generation castings will become production masters
after I add a few more details and make sure everything fits properly.

From my standpoint as a resin caster the original 3D printed part only
needs to get me through the Archer rivet application stage. At that point
I'll make a mold and work with resin castings from then on. There are two
reasons for this. First, the 3D printing processes that are capable of
rendering the level of detail shown in my photos use materials that are
much too brittle or unstable for end-product use, and the processes that
do
use suitable materials can't render the required level of detail. Second,
Archer rivets are wonderful, but they *will* chip off with careless
handling and, in my view, aren't trustworthy on a master from which 15 or
20 molds might be made. So my designs allow for at least two generations of
mold and casting shrinkage, and I use first generation resin castings
rather than printed originals as production masters.

Yes, the idea is to market two resin kits, one of which will make a Tk-G
or Tk-H, and the other to make either a Tk-I or Tk-J. Each kit will have a
tank with appropriate details and two domes. I intend to do the later
versions of the Tk-G and -H, with center tank anchors, rather than
as-delivered with head blocks and diagonal tank hold-down straps. The
diagonal strap anchor castings on the top of the tank will be there, of
course. A few things have to be worked out - the running board supports,
which in this design are cosmetic rather than structural, and the running
board steps might best be made of brass, but whether from formed strip or
photo-etching remains to be determined.

As Kent Hurley indicated, these parts were not made on $1600 machines. Or
on $16,000 machines. As many of you know, in my post-retirement career I
consult part time for a local rapid prototyping company and have access
(but not free access) to some pretty amazing technology. We can make parts
using stereolithography (SLA), selective laser sintering (SLS) and
PolyJet.
We don't yet have any MultiJet machines (like PolyJet but with higher
resolution), so I use Shapeways for that technology. At this stage of
their
development I wouldn't consider buying any consumer-grade 3D printer. They
do have a lot of gee whiz appeal and are great for making decent 1:1
objects and shapes, but in this hobby we make miniatures, not full-size
objects. (In the trade, the consumer-grade 3D printers are called
"computer
controlled hot glue guns".) Pay attention to the jewelers who use 3D
printing. Their needs are similar to ours, so follow their lead.

Now if you will indulge a bit of philosophy…. I am a competent modeler,
have become passably competent in 3D CAD, and have expertise in resin
casting and mold making. When it comes to casting I can look at a part,
visualize how the resin will flow, where the parting line needs to be,
where the gate and vents should be located, and how the part should be
oriented in the mold. I've also been intimately involved in the design of
a
very complex product line, the Branchline heavyweight Pullman kits. So I
have a pretty good view of the whole process, from concept through
manufacturing and final assembly. My gripe with resin kits in general is
that the patterns are created but not designed, and the kits themselves,
the aggregate collections of parts needed to create models, are seldom
engineered with any consideration for ease of assembly. That's
understandable because, traditionally, patterns for resin casting have
been
created by expert scratch builders. And scratchbuilding involves a lot of
"make it up as I go along". Also, even with one-piece bodies, many parts
are still made by flat casting and you can't include mounting bosses or
alignment keys on the backs of flat cast parts.

Tank cars are considered very difficult resin kits to assemble. I've tried
to break a complex model into parts that are straightforward to cast, and
include registration and alignment features. All those notches, grooves,
posts and apertures in the parts have a purpose. Drill and tap the bottom
of the dome mounting boss and the subassembly of upper & lower tank
shells,
running board and dome can be held together in perfect alignment with a
single 1-72 machine screw. The tank supports that mount on top of the
underframe ("fiddly bits" awaiting application of Archer rivets) are keyed
to it, and the underframe is keyed to the lower tank shell. Holes will be
spotted for grab irons and handrail posts, and a forming jig provided for
making the offset bends in the end handrails. You'll still have to remove
flash from the parts, but once that's done the assembly should go quickly.

Might be a Prototype Rails clinic in all this - Designing for 3D Printing,
including an overview of the 3D printing processes appropriate to our
hobby....

Tom Madden




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
 

Wow Tom,

Very neat work.

Can't wait for the commercial offering -J

Cheers

Dave North


nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:
"In the trade, the consumer-grade 3D printers are called "computer controlled hot glue guns".
Tom Madden>
The perfect description! I had never heard that before, but I will be using that in my clinic.

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Tom,
I'd like to echo Rob Kirkham's comment, "Yes this is very nice work Tom and I appreciated your explanation of how you
went about certain steps." Frankly, I am very impressed both with the quality of your work and the lucidity of your explanations.
Gene Green


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden
Really nice work, Tom. I read the text in your PDF file, and have a question:

"Then a breakthrough. We activated the "high fidelity slicing" mode on our Viper hi-resolution stereolithography 3D printers. Why we hadn't done so earlier is a long story, but the change gave parts
with incredibly smooth side walls. I jumped at the chance to demo (demonstrate, not demolish) my tank shell parts. We ran them standing on end, and the results were spectacular.Here is a photo of the actual
upper tank shell. The part was lightly sandblasted to break the gloss, then primed to seal the surfaces. Archer rivets were added, then the part was primed again to seal the Archers. NO OTHER FINISHING
WAS NEEDED! No hand sanding, nothing. Everything except the rivets was built as part of the shell. Everything."

So, why use Archer rivets? It would seem that the advantage of 3D printing is being able to add the fiddly bits at the computer, rather than having to tease them in place after paying big bucks to create the basic shell. I realize using Archer rivets is pretty easy, my question is really aimed at including surface detail other than rivets; sheathing bolts on side framing, fillet gussets on castings and the like.

Also, what is the layer thickness and pixel resolution in the "high fidelity slicing mode", and what did it o to build time?

Care to give us a realistic cost number for someone who walks in off the street with usable STL files?

Dennis Storzek


Tom Madden
 

Dennis wrote:

So, why use Archer rivets? It would seem that the advantage of 3D printing is being able to add the fiddly bits at the computer, rather than having to tease them in place after paying big bucks to create the basic shell. I realize using Archer rivets is pretty easy, my question is really aimed at including surface detail other than rivets; sheathing bolts on side framing, fillet gussets on castings and the like.
Also, what is the layer thickness and pixel resolution in the "high fidelity slicing mode", and what did it do to build time?
Time for another of Madden's Infamous Treatises on 3D Printing That Aren't The Least Bit Interesting Now But Might Be Later....

Some background - I came into the rapid prototyping (RP) field with expertise in mold making and resin casting but none in the actual printing processes, so all I know about them comes from observation and a growing body of experience. Slicing is the data processing step by which a 3D CAD file is sliced into individual layers, with the resulting slices of data sent, one at a time, to the 3D printer. 3D Systems introduced high fidelity slicing in 2005 but our managers chose not to implement it. (It would only work on one of our six stereolithography [SLA] machines, the high resolution Viper, and it slows things down because slicing is done in real time and the machine would have to wait between layers for the data processing to catch up.) I wasn't even aware of it, nor were any of the shop supervisors. Basically, Hi-Fi slicing greatly reduces the jitter between layers so you get much smoother side walls - both vertical and contoured. It's an add-on to give better results with a machine's existing build modes, not a new build mode. By last fall our stable of SLA machines had grown to 14, eight of them Vipers. All of them have faster computers, so we upgraded the software and all the Vipers now run Hi-Fi slicing.

To be honest, Dennis, I was so blown away by the smooth surfaces that I when the SLA supervisor walked in with a flash drive and asked for one of my "miniature" designs for a demo run, I just went with those upper & lower tank shell files. The amazing thing is, those parts were built using the Viper's standard mode (.010" beam diameter, .004" layers) and not in high resolution mode (.003" beam diameter, .002" layers). Probably a good thing, because those tank bands are .006" thick and the SLA process won't build overhangs if the layer to layer offset is greater than about 75% of the beam diameter. (There has to be something underneath to build on. You can't create a .006" offset with a .003" beam.)

I don't know if a side wall with rivets etc. would build. I tried building the underframe that way, but it failed. For that, Shapeways and multi-jet modeling was the answer. There is no single RP process that does everything well, you still need lots of tools in your kit.

Care to give us a realistic cost number for someone who walks in off the street with usable STL files?
I'll check when I go in today.

Tom Madden


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Dennis,
Is it possible your firm could do (or want to do) one of these in plastic? Not sure how injection molds are done now-days.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS