Per Diem


rdgbuff56
 

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
Sunbury, Pa.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@...> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis


Phillip Blancher <pblancher@...>
 

To give you an example of what Dennis wrote, the Rutland Railroad
avoided per diem like the plague. During the Steam Era, the Rutland
would receive coal for clients from interchange points in Norwood,
Malone or Rouses Point, New York off the NYC or D&H. These loads were
for clients anywhere along the line and originate from the PRR, B&O,
D&H or DL&W. If the cars were slated for go to say, Malone, they would
be delivered and as soon as empty, retrieved and returned to
interchange. However, if the coal was for railroad use, or they had
time to do this before delivering to the customer, the car would be
routed to the yard at Alburgh, Vermont. There, a coal trestle was
located and the Rutland would run the foreign car up the trestle and
unload the load into the clapped out 10000-series 2-Bay coal hoppers
(modeled using the Bowser GLa2 as a basis in HO for mandatory STMFC
content). Then the empty foreign car would be quickly released and
routed back to the quickest interchange possible. I believe they had
three days of the car being on the road before per diem would start.

Similarly, the Rutland purchased 350 40' PS-1 Box Cars from 1954-57
which roamed the US and Canada earning the company a tidy sum on per
diem. Those cars being modeled with the Kadee releases (for members of
the silver roof club) or Intermountain/Steam Shack releases (for
members of the yellow roof society).

I believe this was common for smaller class-ones.

Phillip

--
Phillip Blancher
http://about.me/phillipblancher

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 11:42 PM, soolinehistory <destorzek@mchsi.com> wrote:


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@...> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group? In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy. Is there still per diem on freight cars?

In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare. How did they keep track of cars and transfer money? How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis



------------------------------------

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earlyrail
 

Then the empty foreign car would be quickly released and
routed back to the quickest interchange possible. I believe they had
three days of the car being on the road before per diem would start.
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay per diem.

Howard Garner


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Howard R Garner <cascaderail@...> wrote:

Then the empty foreign car would be quickly released and
routed back to the quickest interchange possible. I believe they had
three days of the car being on the road before per diem would start.
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay
per diem.

Howard Garner
The charge to the customer for holding the cart too long for loading/unloading is called demurrage.


Dennis


Larry Kline
 

Thanks for the link to the history talk.

The change from daily to hourly per diem had a big negative impact on the finances of the WM. With daily per diem the WM was able to avoid per diem on most cars and had a significant net per diem income from per diem on WM cars on other RRs.

When hourly car hire started that income went away.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis


Tony Thompson
 

Howard Garner wrote:
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay per diem.
As Dennis pointed out, the customer charge is not per diem, but demurrage. There was not a fixed time for this, and customers could negotiate with the railroad as what this period would be. But typical numbers were 24 hours for loading, 48 hours for unloading, rather than in days. The customer would "stop the clock" by calling the agent (or yardmaster) and telling him the car was ready for pickup.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


drgwrail
 

Francis:
 
As you say this is off-topic but if you want more detail contact me at rmailto:raildata@comcast.net.
 
Briefly, on the Lackawanna and most major railroads "car accounting" was done by IBM punch card systems. Car yard clerk reports, interchange reports, train consists, per diem charges, etc. were sent to Scranton by train mail, teletype, etc.
 
All reports of car movements were sent to Scranton where cards were punch from the input data. then collated by owner railroad, etc. and collated into reports by railraod. These reports were collated monthly by railroad and then sent toa  region clearing house. There the plus and minus charges for each two railroads was calculated and each railroad billed or paid to the clearing hose. Which in turn made total charges / or payments and sent a check or bills to each railroad for the clearing house.
 
The Lackawanna's car accounting / IBM processing dept occupied an entire in the Scranton office/ depot building.
 
In the '30s and 40's the railroads were one of IBM's largest customers.
 
Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


________________________________
From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@yahoo.com>
To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem

 
This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
Sunbury, Pa.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


drgwrail
 

Francis:
 
As yopu say, this is an off


________________________________
From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@yahoo.com>
To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem

 
This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars? In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often? Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.Sunbury, Pa.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]