36-foot boxcars


Bill Welch
 

I too appreciate F&C's efforts with 36-foot boxcars.

One of the stats I remember from John Nehrich's "Shop Talks" years ago was the number of boxcars of various lengths based on numbers from the ORER he consulted. I don't remember the exact year but I am pretty sure the reason it stuck with me is because it was a post-WWII year. About 84% of the national boxcar fleet were nominal 40-ft cars while the 36-ft and 50-ft boxcars were about the same, approximately 8% for each. I have tried to remember this ratio as I buy and build.

I also have a few undec MDC 36-foot kits around in case they may be good for something.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

But Steve & Sharon have come a huge distance since Al Ford at Willis Hobbies got Steve started in this business so many years ago.
I have picked up a number of their up-dated kits of late both to build and to sell and have been especially pleased with their new New Haven GA-2 gondolas and the 36 ft. New Haven box car now in a one piece body form. These are both great kits! The NYC 36 ft. box will be available shortly in a one piece body form as well which I'm sure will be a hit. I am very pleased with Steve's efforts with 36 ft. box cars as they offer what looks to be a longer or larger train but with less length. All part of the "optical illusion" of model railroading!

Cheers, Don Valentine


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 9, 2013, at 8:11 AM, lnbill <fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

I too appreciate F&C's efforts with 36-foot boxcars.

One of the stats I remember from John Nehrich's "Shop Talks" years ago was the number of boxcars of various lengths based on numbers from the ORER he consulted. I don't remember the exact year but I am pretty sure the reason it stuck with me is because it was a post-WWII year. About 84% of the national boxcar fleet were nominal 40-ft cars while the 36-ft and 50-ft boxcars were about the same, approximately 8% for each. I have tried to remember this ratio as I buy and build.
Bill, I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. Aging 36' box cars lasted longer on smaller and less prosperous railroads (and on Class 1 RRs like the Southern, which was still acquiring them in the late '20s) than on major transcontinental lines, and 50' cars were more numerous on the railroads that had a lot of automobile and auto parts traffic (e.g., NYC, Pennsy, Santa Fe, UP). So the ratio might vary a lot depending on the RR and location you're modeling. As always, interchange records, conductors' train books, and photos of actual trains are more useful than abstract numbers. In the area and era I model, I need many 50' cars, as the Santa Fe hauled large amounts of auto parts into the Los Angeles area and many finished autos and trucks out of it, but very few 36' cars, as the Santa Fe's had mostly been retired and most other western RRs (UP. SP, WP, GN, NP, MILW) had shifted from 36' to 40' box cars early in the 20th century. As always, YMMV, of course. No doubt 36' box cars were more numerous in the southeast than in the far west.

Richard Hendrickson


Monk Alan <Alan.Monk@...>
 

Bill/all

A few years back Ray Breyer (I think) emailed a bunch of us who'd expressed interest in shorty box cars, a whole bunch of info, listings, photos, etc., that he'd researched for his 1950-based layout.

8% of the total 1950 boxcar fleet were less than 40ft, but the majority of those were the large CP/CN fleet of 36ft Fowler cars. Exclude those and the proportion drops to around 2.3%, with the L&N DS, Southern SU, ACL/SAL (ventilated), D&H DS and the N,C&StL's steel rebuilds forming large parts (1000+ each) of that reduced number.

I've probably got too many shorties in my fleet (one each of Southern SU, D&H DS, N,C&StL and Mopac steel rebuilds, plus a couple of CP Fowlers, all resin), but they provide a nice visual oddity in a string of 40-footers. I was tempted by F&C's NH shorty, but there were only 30 still in service in 1950, so decided they were likely too rare.


Cheers,
Alan Monk
London, UK



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

<I also have a few undec MDC 36-foot kits around in case they may be good
for something.>

Bill Welch

Bill,

MDC 36 ft. double-sheathed boxcars are good for bunk house conversions,
either as single cars, or as two cars placed end-to-end. I've found
dimensions matching these boxcar bunkhouse configurations in CB&Q alignment
charts, and I've found photographs of them as well. I don't think I'd
sacrifice a resin kit, but MDC kits or RTR cars are great kitbashing
material. The resin kits can be turned into credible bunk cars.



Nelson Moyer


Benjamin Hom
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"Bill, I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. Aging 36' box cars lasted longer on smaller and less prosperous railroads (and on Class 1 RRs like the Southern, which was still acquiring them in the late '20s) than on major transcontinental lines, and 50' cars were more numerous on the railroads that had a lot of automobile and auto parts traffic (e.g., NYC, Pennsy, Santa Fe, UP). So the ratio might vary a lot depending on the RR and location you're modeling. As always, interchange records, conductors' train books, and photos of actual trains are more useful than abstract numbers. In the area and era I model, I need many 50' cars, as the Santa Fe hauled large amounts of auto parts into the Los Angeles area and many finished autos and trucks out of it, but very few 36' cars, as the Santa Fe's had mostly been retired and most other western RRs (UP. SP, WP, GN, NP, MILW) had shifted from 36' to 40' box cars early in the 20th century. As always,
YMMV, of course. No doubt 36' box cars were more numerous in the southeast than in the far west."
 
To back Richard's assertion regarding geography and specific railroad, here are some Canadian boxcar numbers from data pulled from Rutland shifting lists in Armand Premo's collection from trains on the O&LC (with a Canadian gateway on the east end of the line), 1948-1950:
 
CN
Total XM: 359 (of 3166 total XM)
Total 36 ft XM: 206
 
CP
Total XM: 124
Total 36 ft XM: 64
 
I still have to analyze the specific car numbers of the 36 ft cars, but I anticipate almost all of them to be Fowler/Dominion SS boxcars.  Other roads' 36 ft cars appear to be much fewer in proportion, but this is analysis that I still need to do.
 
 
Ben Hom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


CJ Riley
 

CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA



________________________________
From: Nelson Moyer <ku0a@mchsi.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:43 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 36-foot boxcars



 
<I also have a few undec MDC 36-foot kits around in case they may be good
for something.>

Bill Welch

Bill,

MDC 36 ft. double-sheathed boxcars are good for bunk house conversions,
either as single cars, or as two cars placed end-to-end. I've found
dimensions matching these boxcar bunkhouse configurations in CB&Q alignment
charts, and I've found photographs of them as well. I don't think I'd
sacrifice a resin kit, but MDC kits or RTR cars are great kitbashing
material. The resin kits can be turned into credible bunk cars.

Nelson Moyer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Ray Breyer
 

From: Monk Alan Alan.Monk@tube.tfl.gov.uk
Bill/all
A few years back Ray Breyer (I think) emailed a bunch of us who'd expressed interest in shorty box cars, a whole
bunch of info, listings, photos, etc., that he'd researched for his 1950-based layout.
8% of the total 1950 boxcar fleet were less than 40ft, but the majority of those were the large CP/CN fleet of 36ft
Fowler cars. Exclude those and the proportion drops to around 2.3%, with the L&N DS, Southern SU, ACL/SAL
(ventilated), D&H DS and the N,C&StL's steel rebuilds forming large parts (1000+ each) of that reduced number.
Cheers,
Alan Monk
 
Hi Alan,
 
Yep; that sounds like my work!  :-)
 
In 2008 I did a presentation at Naperville on "postwar shorties", as a primer for people to notice these older cars, and to explain how they could have a few running on their layouts. I've posted an abridged version of my car tallies to the files section of the group so everyone can see the raw numbers (I also posted the list from my 2009 clinic on postwar single sheathed cars).
 
Overall, the timeline is fascinating. In 1930, just before the Depression, fully 44% of the US and Canadian fleet were boxcars "less than 39'11" long". Once the Depression really took hold in 1931-1933 railroads purged their older equipment as fast as they could, and by 1945 the number of short boxcars was down to only 14% of the fleet (overally carrying capacity of the fleet was down too). In those 15 years over 410,000 boxcars were scrapped, with most being removed from service between 1930-1935.
 
By the end of the steam era (1959) only 2% (15,137 total) of the cars were shorties, and virtually all of those cars were either Dominion cars from the Great White North, or Ya'all Road ventilated cars. I don't have ANY ORERs from the 1960s, so I haven't tracked when the last cars of the type stopped rolling.
 
 
Oh; as an aside: when I originally crunched these numbers I was modeling 1950. Because of my results I recently backdated to the the late 1920s, simply because a 1950 car fleet can't support as many old, short, wood boxcars as I wanted!
 
Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


devansprr
 

Bill,

I realize you are looking at the post-war fleet, but during WWII there was significant under-40 boxcar fleet, even ignoring the massive CP/CN fleets.

Ignoring the CN/CP fleets, in 1943, the under-40 North American fleet outnumbered the 50 foot fleet 72,000 (9.5% under 40') to 48,000 (6.4% 50') (The total NA fleet, minus CN and CP, was around 750,000)

Roads that had more under-40's than 40' or over (with number of under-40's noted):

L&N - 7753
NYNH - 7016
NC&STL - 3047
D&H - 1811
BAR - 1325

Other roads with significant under-40 fleets:

SOU - 13678
RDG - 3063
ATSF - 3438 (vs. 3611 50' - the 4th largest 50' fleet)
NYC - 2904 (vs. only 2699 50')
Erie - 2336
DL&W - 1943
GTW - 1672
MP - 1637
SOO - 1364
P&LE - 1191
NYC&StL - 1091
SLSF - 1084
GM&O - 1051

And the two big Canadian totals (just how many reached well south of the border remains a big topic of debate):

CN - 27000
CP - 35250

It is great to see F&C working this part of the fleet - still many gaps to fill, but they have filled some big ones for the WWII modeler. Better yet the one piece body, because some of these fleets are so large I need more than one. So easy assembly is greatly appreciated.

Hopefully F&C will keep working their way down the above list.

Someone mentioned the smaller rolling stock being a modeling advantage, and that is an attraction of WWII. Remember that only the largest 50' box cars cubed more than today's 53' trailer vans that we drive right next too everyday (and are double stacked on today's trains). Freight cars grew considerably post war - at times I think WWII HO looks like TT scale next to modern era HO.

Dave Evans

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I too appreciate F&C's efforts with 36-foot boxcars.

One of the stats I remember from John Nehrich's "Shop Talks" years ago was the number of boxcars of various lengths based on numbers from the ORER he consulted. I don't remember the exact year but I am pretty sure the reason it stuck with me is because it was a post-WWII year. About 84% of the national boxcar fleet were nominal 40-ft cars while the 36-ft and 50-ft boxcars were about the same, approximately 8% for each. I have tried to remember this ratio as I buy and build.

I also have a few undec MDC 36-foot kits around in case they may be good for something.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <riverman_vt@> wrote:

But Steve & Sharon have come a huge distance since Al Ford at Willis Hobbies got Steve started in this business so many years ago.
I have picked up a number of their up-dated kits of late both to build and to sell and have been especially pleased with their new New Haven GA-2 gondolas and the 36 ft. New Haven box car now in a one piece body form. These are both great kits! The NYC 36 ft. box will be available shortly in a one piece body form as well which I'm sure will be a hit. I am very pleased with Steve's efforts with 36 ft. box cars as they offer what looks to be a longer or larger train but with less length. All part of the "optical illusion" of model railroading!

Cheers, Don Valentine


caboose9792@...
 

In a message dated 8/9/2013 12:56:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com writes:

By the end of the steam era (1959) only 2% (15,137 total) of the cars were
shorties, and virtually all of those cars were either Dominion cars from
the Great White North, or Ya'all Road ventilated cars. I don't have ANY
ORERs from the 1960s, so I haven't tracked when the last cars of the type
stopped rolling.

Since Ray pondered the context of the demise of the 36' cars I had the 1965
register handy and did a quick check :

L&N XM 36' 3" 3 cars
2 ventilator boxes 40' 6"
total freight equipment 58,701 cars

C of G no boxcars under 40' but 14 86' 4" XAP

FEC shortest boxcar is 39' 10" IL 14 total "steel underframe" cars

Southern 17 36' boxcars of 23,717 [0.071%] total cars
186 stock cars 40' 6"

SCL no boxcars under 40'
ventilator cars 35' 9" 9 cars, 35'1 1 car
total 10 cars.
485 RB & RBL for comparison

ACL
xm 1 car (30 ton capacity)
VM (ventilator) 15 cars

De Queen and Eastern (in Arkansas)
1 36' XM
21 total cars

CP
156 boxcars (only one group class XAP of 17 cars appears to be an all
steel car) of 51577 in all classes [0.3%]
740 SM 36' stock cars 1679 total stock cars (new series with no quantity
data for about 100 new 40' 6" cars not included) [44%]

CN
419 cars [0.47%]
88,888 cars total

CN- Newfound land area
all cars are under 50' IL
XM XI 36' or less 767 [36.76%]
total cars 2086

Northern Alberta Railways 30 36' stock cars [100%]

It would seem that 36' box cars would be rare and getting rarer in 1960,
last year class 1 steam in the US. They proved to have more staying power in
Canada, particularly in Newfoundland. However, 36' stockcars seemed to have
held up better percentage wise.

Mark Rickert


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Aug 9, 2013, at 8:11 AM, lnbill <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I too appreciate F&C's efforts with 36-foot boxcars.

One of the stats I remember from John Nehrich's "Shop Talks" years ago was the number of boxcars of various lengths based on numbers from the ORER he consulted. I don't remember the exact year but I am pretty sure the reason it stuck with me is because it was a post-WWII year. About 84% of the national boxcar fleet were nominal 40-ft cars while the 36-ft and 50-ft boxcars were about the same, approximately 8% for each. I have tried to remember this ratio as I buy and build.
Bill, I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. Aging 36' box cars lasted longer on smaller and less prosperous railroads (and on Class 1 RRs like the Southern, which was still acquiring them in the late '20s) than on major transcontinental lines, and 50' cars were more numerous on the railroads that had a lot of automobile and auto parts traffic (e.g., NYC, Pennsy, Santa Fe, UP). So the ratio might vary a lot depending on the RR and location you're modeling. As always, interchange records, conductors' train books, and photos of actual trains are more useful than abstract numbers. In the area and era I model, I need many 50' cars, as the Santa Fe hauled large amounts of auto parts into the Los Angeles area and many finished autos and trucks out of it, but very few 36' cars, as the Santa Fe's had mostly been retired and most other western RRs (UP. SP, WP, GN, NP, MILW) had shifted from 36' to 40' box cars early in the 20th century. As always, YMMV, of course. No doubt 36' box cars were more numerous in the southeast than in the far west.

Richard Hendrickson


And in the northeast to a degree as well owing to the huge number of 36 ft. cars the New Haven owned and rebuilt. F&C now offers a great one piece resin casting kit for these cars with our choice of ends.

Additionally, Southern 36 ft. cars appear in the region from time to time along with ACL and Seaboard ventilated box cars, usually carrying watermelons.

Cordially, Don Valentine


mopacfirst
 

And, the Newfoundland cars were conveniently narrow gauge.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, caboose9792@... wrote:



In a message dated 8/9/2013 12:56:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
rtbsvrr69@... writes:

By the end of the steam era (1959) only 2% (15,137 total) of the cars were
shorties, and virtually all of those cars were either Dominion cars from
the Great White North, or Ya'all Road ventilated cars. I don't have ANY
ORERs from the 1960s, so I haven't tracked when the last cars of the type
stopped rolling.

Since Ray pondered the context of the demise of the 36' cars I had the 1965
register handy and did a quick check :

L&N XM 36' 3" 3 cars
2 ventilator boxes 40' 6"
total freight equipment 58,701 cars

C of G no boxcars under 40' but 14 86' 4" XAP

FEC shortest boxcar is 39' 10" IL 14 total "steel underframe" cars

Southern 17 36' boxcars of 23,717 [0.071%] total cars
186 stock cars 40' 6"

SCL no boxcars under 40'
ventilator cars 35' 9" 9 cars, 35'1 1 car
total 10 cars.
485 RB & RBL for comparison

ACL
xm 1 car (30 ton capacity)
VM (ventilator) 15 cars

De Queen and Eastern (in Arkansas)
1 36' XM
21 total cars

CP
156 boxcars (only one group class XAP of 17 cars appears to be an all
steel car) of 51577 in all classes [0.3%]
740 SM 36' stock cars 1679 total stock cars (new series with no quantity
data for about 100 new 40' 6" cars not included) [44%]

CN
419 cars [0.47%]
88,888 cars total

CN- Newfound land area
all cars are under 50' IL
XM XI 36' or less 767 [36.76%]
total cars 2086

Northern Alberta Railways 30 36' stock cars [100%]

It would seem that 36' box cars would be rare and getting rarer in 1960,
last year class 1 steam in the US. They proved to have more staying power in
Canada, particularly in Newfoundland. However, 36' stockcars seemed to have
held up better percentage wise.

Mark Rickert




midrly
 

American modellers can readily exclude almost all Canadian 36' steel-frame "Fowler" boxcars from their layouts after the time that K brakes were outlawed in interchange in the US. Very few of these cars received AB brakes, and some CPR cars kept archbar trucks into the 1960's when they went into company service. The K brakes caused many cars to be restricted to service in Canada, most hauling grain by the 1950's.

CN and CP both invested heavily in steel and steel-frame 40' cars from the late 1920's. These cars were fitted quickly with AB brakes, and were far more often seen on US roads than the "Fowlers".

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Monk Alan <Alan.Monk@...> wrote:

Bill/all

A few years back Ray Breyer (I think) emailed a bunch of us who'd expressed interest in shorty box cars, a whole bunch of info, listings, photos, etc., that he'd researched for his 1950-based layout.

8% of the total 1950 boxcar fleet were less than 40ft, but the majority of those were the large CP/CN fleet of 36ft Fowler cars. Exclude those and the proportion drops to around 2.3%, with the L&N DS, Southern SU, ACL/SAL (ventilated), D&H DS and the N,C&StL's steel rebuilds forming large parts (1000+ each) of that reduced number.

I've probably got too many shorties in my fleet (one each of Southern SU, D&H DS, N,C&StL and Mopac steel rebuilds, plus a couple of CP Fowlers, all resin), but they provide a nice visual oddity in a string of 40-footers. I was tempted by F&C's NH shorty, but there were only 30 still in service in 1950, so decided they were likely too rare.


Cheers,
Alan Monk
London, UK



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Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "midrly" <lucas@...> wrote:


American modellers can readily exclude almost all Canadian 36' steel-frame "Fowler" boxcars from their layouts after the time that K brakes were outlawed in interchange in the US. Very few of these cars received AB brakes, and some CPR cars kept archbar trucks into the 1960's when they went into company service. The K brakes caused many cars to be restricted to service in Canada, most hauling grain by the 1950's.

CN and CP both invested heavily in steel and steel-frame 40' cars from the late 1920's. These cars were fitted quickly with AB brakes, and were far more often seen on US roads than the "Fowlers".

Horse hockey! There were plenty of Dominion cars, damn few met the requirements of the Fowler patent, coming down the Central Vermont and the Lyndonville Sub. of the CPR right through the 1940's though they began to dwindle after that. None-the-less they were not uncommon until the mid to late 1950's. In the early 1970's I took photos of a CPR Dominion stock car in White River Jct., VT and within a month or so a Grand Trunk Dominion type box car. While I didn't look I doubt they had K-brakes and suggest to you that more of the CNR's and CPR's Dominion cars may have received AB-brakes than you realize. Will check with the CNR's retired mechanical engineer, a personal friend of some thirty years, when he returns from visiting family in Alberta and see if we can get some numbers for at least the CNR.

Cordially, Don Valentine


midrly
 

Don--

Both lines that you mention were Canadian roads' lines. CN or CPR cars with K brakes could be run on them as home-road cars, but to interchange them with other roads within the US? I feel that not a high percentage of the 36' Dominion boxcars received AB brakes, but I welcome your friend's stats on the CN conversions. CN and CP had steel-frame 40' boxcars that were in most cases newer (except for the ex-GCR 1917-built CN 500000-series) and of higher cubic capacity than the Dominion cars. It appears that almost all of these 40' cars got AB brakes, as opposed to the Dominion cars. Maybe the gentleman that you mention can come up with some comparable AB brake conversion stats on the CN 500000-513500 series cars?

I have seen very few images of "Fowler" (note the use of quotation marks, you and I know them better by the "Dominion" label, but I used "Fowler" as the design description on this list) Dominion boxcars with AB brakes, and only one that I know of remains, an ex-CNor 1919 or 1920-built car at the York-Durham Heritage Railway in Uxbridge, Ontario.

http://www.ydhr.ca/gallery//RollingStock/boxcar_406308.jpg

As for stock cars, they were mostly conversions of Dominion boxcars, and the 1949 CN conversions included AB brake conversion in the course of rebuilding.

From Stafford Swain's article in Mainline Modeler, November, 1985, page 41--

"BRAKE GEAR. The cars were built in the "K" brake era, and CN specifications show them having KC-812 brakes. Other than 1949's stock car conversions, we have no documentation indicating that any of the rebuilding programs included changing "K" brakes to the AB type introduced about 1933. Nevertheless, photographs indicate that this occurred in some cases."

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "midrly" <lucas@> wrote:


American modellers can readily exclude almost all Canadian 36' steel-frame "Fowler" boxcars from their layouts after the time that K brakes were outlawed in interchange in the US. Very few of these cars received AB brakes, and some CPR cars kept archbar trucks into the 1960's when they went into company service. The K brakes caused many cars to be restricted to service in Canada, most hauling grain by the 1950's.

CN and CP both invested heavily in steel and steel-frame 40' cars from the late 1920's. These cars were fitted quickly with AB brakes, and were far more often seen on US roads than the "Fowlers".

Horse hockey! There were plenty of Dominion cars, damn few met the requirements of the Fowler patent, coming down the Central Vermont and the Lyndonville Sub. of the CPR right through the 1940's though they began to dwindle after that. None-the-less they were not uncommon until the mid to late 1950's. In the early 1970's I took photos of a CPR Dominion stock car in White River Jct., VT and within a month or so a Grand Trunk Dominion type box car. While I didn't look I doubt they had K-brakes and suggest to you that more of the CNR's and CPR's Dominion cars may have received AB-brakes than you realize. Will check with the CNR's retired mechanical engineer, a personal friend of some thirty years, when he returns from visiting family in Alberta and see if we can get some numbers for at least the CNR.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Steve,
You might want to revisit Ian Wilson's book series of CNR in Ontario. I can recall a seeing photos of a good number of Fowlers with AB brakes, with both power hand brakes and vertical stem winders.
I'd also like to point out that what you "feel" may not in fact be reality. I've seen plenty of images of CN and CP Fowlers south of the border, post the K brake interchange ban.
With the size of the Fowler fleets for both railways, not being able to interchange within Canada, never mind to the US, would be an unacceptable restriction I would submit.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "midrly" <lucas@...> wrote:

Don--

Both lines that you mention were Canadian roads' lines. CN or CPR cars with K brakes could be run on them as home-road cars, but to interchange them with other roads within the US? I feel that not a high percentage of the 36' Dominion boxcars received AB brakes, but I welcome your friend's stats on the CN conversions. CN and CP had steel-frame 40' boxcars that were in most cases newer (except for the ex-GCR 1917-built CN 500000-series) and of higher cubic capacity than the Dominion cars. It appears that almost all of these 40' cars got AB brakes, as opposed to the Dominion cars. Maybe the gentleman that you mention can come up with some comparable AB brake conversion stats on the CN 500000-513500 series cars?

I have seen very few images of "Fowler" (note the use of quotation marks, you and I know them better by the "Dominion" label, but I used "Fowler" as the design description on this list) Dominion boxcars with AB brakes, and only one that I know of remains, an ex-CNor 1919 or 1920-built car at the York-Durham Heritage Railway in Uxbridge, Ontario.

http://www.ydhr.ca/gallery//RollingStock/boxcar_406308.jpg

As for stock cars, they were mostly conversions of Dominion boxcars, and the 1949 CN conversions included AB brake conversion in the course of rebuilding.

From Stafford Swain's article in Mainline Modeler, November, 1985, page 41--

"BRAKE GEAR. The cars were built in the "K" brake era, and CN specifications show them having KC-812 brakes. Other than 1949's stock car conversions, we have no documentation indicating that any of the rebuilding programs included changing "K" brakes to the AB type introduced about 1933. Nevertheless, photographs indicate that this occurred in some cases."

Steve Lucas.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <riverman_vt@> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "midrly" <lucas@> wrote:


American modellers can readily exclude almost all Canadian 36' steel-frame "Fowler" boxcars from their layouts after the time that K brakes were outlawed in interchange in the US. Very few of these cars received AB brakes, and some CPR cars kept archbar trucks into the 1960's when they went into company service. The K brakes caused many cars to be restricted to service in Canada, most hauling grain by the 1950's.

CN and CP both invested heavily in steel and steel-frame 40' cars from the late 1920's. These cars were fitted quickly with AB brakes, and were far more often seen on US roads than the "Fowlers".

Horse hockey! There were plenty of Dominion cars, damn few met the requirements of the Fowler patent, coming down the Central Vermont and the Lyndonville Sub. of the CPR right through the 1940's though they began to dwindle after that. None-the-less they were not uncommon until the mid to late 1950's. In the early 1970's I took photos of a CPR Dominion stock car in White River Jct., VT and within a month or so a Grand Trunk Dominion type box car. While I didn't look I doubt they had K-brakes and suggest to you that more of the CNR's and CPR's Dominion cars may have received AB-brakes than you realize. Will check with the CNR's retired mechanical engineer, a personal friend of some thirty years, when he returns from visiting family in Alberta and see if we can get some numbers for at least the CNR.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Monk Alan <Alan.Monk@...>
 

Ray Breyer posted: I've posted an abridged version of my car tallies to the files section of the group so everyone can see the raw numbers (I also posted the list from my 2009 clinic on postwar single sheathed cars).


Very useful, thanks Ray! Knowing the 'end dates' of various types means I could allow/justify myself a couple more... maybe *grin*

2 more for the 'post 1945 Models Page' - Sunshine released a very nice kit for the NC&StL steel rebuilt shorties a few years back (2010??) http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun97a.pdf and also the ICT 36' SS car http://www.sunshinekits.com/sunimages/sun78b.pdf

I know the ICT car isn't currently available, as that was the one kit missing from my most recent Sunshine delivery :(

Regards,
Alan Monk,
London, UK

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midrly
 

Pierre--

I'll have another look at Ian's books. Now that you mention it, there's a few shots in one of them showing a few Dominion cars with AB brakes. As for interchange restrictions, I've never seen anything on interchanging cars with K brakes within Canada--the restriction was solely with roads in the US.

But how rigidly was the K brake interchange ban enforced in the say, five years or so, after it took effect? This could explain a lot with respect to these and other roads' cars fitted with K brakes. The applicable AAR field manual might specify a ban, but...?

Trains Magazine editor David P. Morgan reported in a mid-1950's article (reprinted in "The Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate") that he saw Canadian roads' cars stencilled with the words (or similar) "THIS CAR NOT EQUIPPED WITH AB BRAKE DO NOT LOAD FOR DESTINATIONS IN US".

I am very interested in seeing Don Valentine's stats on CN Dominion cars refitted with AB brakes. Luckily I have a few to build--now at least one will get AB's. As for the power handbrakes, there is one photo in a book of Ian's that I recall showing a CN Dominion car refitted with power handbrakes.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre" <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

Steve,
You might want to revisit Ian Wilson's book series of CNR in Ontario. I can recall a seeing photos of a good number of Fowlers with AB brakes, with both power hand brakes and vertical stem winders.
I'd also like to point out that what you "feel" may not in fact be reality. I've seen plenty of images of CN and CP Fowlers south of the border, post the K brake interchange ban.
With the size of the Fowler fleets for both railways, not being able to interchange within Canada, never mind to the US, would be an unacceptable restriction I would submit.
Pierre Oliver


Robert kirkham
 

This topic depends a lot on the year of the discussion. For the Canadian Pacific fleet, the MP14 summary of equipment contains lists of cars by number series that were equipped with AB brakes in later years. (It also includes a list of cars with cast frame trucks). I have not spent the time to work through the data for my own 1946 period, but, for example, looking at the 1947 MP14, p. 75, the list of car series with AB brakes includes the following parts of the boxcar fleet:


car series # cars/series broad categorization
29019 - 29094 all 76 steel built 1937 (believe in passenger service)
221000 - 224449 all 3434 steel built 1938-40 (TLT '37 model and other options)
225000 - 225699 all 700 steel built 1936 (the 1932 ARA design - F&C kit)
226000 - 228799 all 2728 steal built 1937
239000 - 239249 all 250 steel frame, war time design, built 1943 (beautiful new Yarmouth Models kit)
240000 - 247499 3434 1929 mini-box design (slightly less than 1/2 fleet of 7421 cars) (coming TLT kit, also several older resin kits)
248350 - 254749 all 6394 steel built between 1941 and 1947 (TLT '37 model and other options)

for a total of 17016 cars. So no pre-1920's cars, and in particular, no Dominion boxcars (i.e "fowler" types).

The same list is found at page 80 of the 1952 MP14, showing some changes:

car series # cars/series broad categorization
29019 - 29115* 94 of 96 steel built 1937 (believe in passenger service)
221000 - 228799 all 6717 see above breakdown for multiple series encompassed in this group . Includes some 1932 design cars and 1937 cars
235000 - 238527 1919 of 3246 steel frame built 1920/21, similar to USRA single sheathed design with 7/8 ends, Tichy model
239000 - 239249 all 246 steel frame, war time design, built 1943 (beautiful new Yarmouth Models kit)
240000 - 247499 6396 of 7323 1929 - 30 mini-box design (slightly less than 1/2 fleet of 7421 cars) (coming TLT kit, also several older resin kits)
248350 - 265249 all 17192 steel built between 1941 and 1952 (several kitbashes for multiple '37 and modified '37 designs)
269600 - 269999 all 398 steel built 1949 (kitbash for modified '37 designs)

for a total of 32,962 cars.

*10 cars in this group were equipped with UC-1-12 brake equipment.

Still no Dominion (.i.e.. “fowler”) cars listed.

I don’t currently have access to a later MP 14 within the list’s era, although anyone interested might check the CPHA web page, where the documents library contains copies of many of these. As a modeller of the mid 40’s I haven’t looked that far into the 50’s and probably never will. However, a quick glance at the 1965 MP 14 still shows some Dominion/Fowler cars, but there is no list of cars with or without AB brakes, suggesting conversions of the few remaining cars to AB may have occurred.

That said, the number of 1937 and later design cars as a proportion of the North American fleet was very substantial, and all were equipped to travel south of the 49th.

Rob Kirkham

-----Original Message-----
From: Don
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 4:10 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: 36-foot boxcars



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "midrly" <lucas@...> wrote:


American modellers can readily exclude almost all Canadian 36' steel-frame "Fowler" boxcars from their layouts after the time that K brakes were outlawed in interchange in the US. Very few of these cars received AB brakes, and some CPR cars kept archbar trucks into the 1960's when they went into company service. The K brakes caused many cars to be restricted to service in Canada, most hauling grain by the 1950's.

CN and CP both invested heavily in steel and steel-frame 40' cars from the late 1920's. These cars were fitted quickly with AB brakes, and were far more often seen on US roads than the "Fowlers".

Horse hockey! There were plenty of Dominion cars, damn few met the requirements of the Fowler patent, coming down the Central Vermont and the Lyndonville Sub. of the CPR right through the 1940's though they began to dwindle after that. None-the-less they were not uncommon until the mid to late 1950's. In the early 1970's I took photos of a CPR Dominion stock car in White River Jct., VT and within a month or so a Grand Trunk Dominion type box car. While I didn't look I doubt they had K-brakes and suggest to you that more of the CNR's and CPR's Dominion cars may have received AB-brakes than you realize. Will check with the CNR's retired mechanical engineer, a personal friend of some thirty years, when he returns from visiting family in Alberta and see if we can get some numbers for at least the CNR.

Cordially, Don Valentine



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