New InterMountain C&O hopper


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hello folks,
These cars look super and are just the ticket for me time-wise.
The question that always troubles me with regard to C&O hoppers, however, is that with a number of file cabinets loaded with photos
of prototype scenes in northern New England I don't even need the
fingers of one hand to count the number of C&O hoppers that appear
in them. This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?

While posting, and with regard to the .005 Evergreen sheet for
making enameled placards out of milk car decals some has been
acquired. Thanks to those who responded. It should greatly improve
the weekend.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Brian Carlson
 

Don: I know Guy Wilber and other have posted regarding documents or a
document that required railroads to return C&O, NW, and Virginian cars
(Pocahontas region cars) as quickly as possible. My group interface has been
converted to Neo so my search of the groups for the past half hour has not
turned up the relevant messages but they are there, maybe you'll have more
luck.



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 7:18 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New InterMountain C&O hopper






Hello folks,
These cars look super and are just the ticket for me time-wise.
The question that always troubles me with regard to C&O hoppers, however, is
that with a number of file cabinets loaded with photos
of prototype scenes in northern New England I don't even need the
fingers of one hand to count the number of C&O hoppers that appear
in them. This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?

While posting, and with regard to the .005 Evergreen sheet for
making enameled placards out of milk car decals some has been
acquired. Thanks to those who responded. It should greatly improve
the weekend.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Mikebrock
 

Don Valentine writes:

"This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?"

Well, as I have noted before, the term "tide coal" doesn't work when you refer to N&W hoppers...assuming you refer to the Atlantic coast "tide". From Richard Prince's Norfolk & Western Pocahontas coal carrier, pg 240, "In 1948 N&W originated 52,000,000 tons of coal. Of that, 22,000,000 tons went west by rail. 10,000,000 tons went through Sandusky and Toledo Great Lake ports. Of the remaining 20,000,000 tons going east, about 10,000,000 tons went through Lambert Point [ tide ], 2,500,000 tons went into the Carolina's. The remainder went north into Maryland and DC and the rest was consumed in VA. However, as you suggest, little if any went into New England...wherever that is.

Mike Brock


water.kresse@...
 

Early on C&O coal would go to Newport News and then up inter-coastal and coastal by barges and boats as far up as Portland, Maine.  After WW1, a good amount of the C&O coal heading north went up through Ohio (the Cleveland-based Van Sweringen Bros controlled the C&O , PM , HV, Erie and NKP during that era.  The ICC did its best to NOT let the Vans get an eastern route north of Columbus.  Coal did go  east to the  shores Lake Erie to Canadian and US port cities . . . the competition/desired receivers were already shipping WV and Pennsy coal to t he Lakes as far west as Toledo also.  I believe there were also "fixed" of the shipping rates in the Northeast protecting the Pennsy, NYX, etc. by pentalizing the C&O, N&W and VGN with higher minimum rates to balance off their cheaper coal.

 

Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----




From: "Brian Carlson" <prrk41361@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 12:23:37 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New InterMountain C&O hopper

Don: I know Guy Wilber and other have posted regarding documents or a
document that required railroads to return C&O, NW, and Virginian cars
(Pocahontas region cars) as quickly as possible. My group interface has been
converted to Neo so my search of the groups for the past half hour has not
turned up the relevant messages but they are there, maybe you'll have more
luck.

 

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 7:18 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New InterMountain C&O hopper

 

  


Hello folks,
These cars look super and are just the ticket for me time-wise.
The question that always troubles me with regard to C&O hoppers, however, is
that with a number of file cabinets loaded with photos
of prototype scenes in northern New England I don't even need the
fingers of one hand to count the number of C&O hoppers that appear
in them. This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?

While posting, and with regard to the .005 Evergreen sheet for
making enameled placards out of milk car decals some has been
acquired. Thanks to those who responded. It should greatly improve
the weekend.

Cordially, Don Valentine





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


devansprr
 

Don, Mike,

A WWII book describing wartime transportation (by Rose) describes how "Pocahontas" coal destined for NYCity and New England was shipped to the Hampton Roads ports and moved via Collier to NYC and ports further north before the war - simply cheaper. An exception was WWII, when U-boats and collier shortages resulted in this market being shipped by rail to NYC (Jersey ports for NYC, and then barge up through Long Island sound for some points in NE), or by rail all the way to New England (the NYC ports were choked with wartime traffic, and because of pier congestion in NJ, the thought was that hopper round trip time to the destination would not be much longer than sitting in NJ waiting for an opportunity to unload.) The rail/ship route was re-established before the end of WWII as colliers came into greater availability and the coastal U-boat threat diminished.

That would make for some interesting WWII photos of New England coal trains - if they existed (no doubt a few do, and may help explain the occasional photo.) But post war, for plain old ordinary power plant coal, rail-only shipment from that far away may not have been cost effective.

Berwind coal may have been an exception, since it was renown for its low sulfur content.

Dave Evans

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Don Valentine writes:

"This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?"

Well, as I have noted before, the term "tide coal" doesn't work when you
refer to N&W hoppers...assuming you refer to the Atlantic coast "tide". From
Richard Prince's Norfolk & Western Pocahontas coal carrier, pg 240, "In 1948
N&W originated 52,000,000 tons of coal. Of that, 22,000,000 tons went west
by rail. 10,000,000 tons went through Sandusky and Toledo Great Lake ports.
Of the remaining 20,000,000 tons going east, about 10,000,000 tons went
through Lambert Point [ tide ], 2,500,000 tons went into the Carolina's. The
remainder went north into Maryland and DC and the rest was consumed in VA.
However, as you suggest, little if any went into New England...wherever that
is.

Mike Brock


Tim O'Connor
 

Mike, this seems incorrect to me. N&W (and no doubt C&O, B&O, VGN, NYC)
shipped WV coal to New England, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York.
There are photos. Of course some may be loaded with other coal, but at
least we can say that N&W hoppers made it to those states.

Tim O'Connor

Don Valentine writes:

"This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?"

Well, as I have noted before, the term "tide coal" doesn't work when you
refer to N&W hoppers...assuming you refer to the Atlantic coast "tide". From
Richard Prince's Norfolk & Western Pocahontas coal carrier, pg 240, "In 1948
N&W originated 52,000,000 tons of coal. Of that, 22,000,000 tons went west
by rail. 10,000,000 tons went through Sandusky and Toledo Great Lake ports.
Of the remaining 20,000,000 tons going east, about 10,000,000 tons went
through Lambert Point [ tide ], 2,500,000 tons went into the Carolina's. The
remainder went north into Maryland and DC and the rest was consumed in VA.
However, as you suggest, little if any went into New England...wherever that
is.

Mike Brock


Armand Premo
 

For the record Mike ,of 249 hoppers on Rutland train #9 in December of 1950 there were actually three N&W hoppers.All were triples.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New InterMountain C&O hopper



Don Valentine writes:

"This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?"

Well, as I have noted before, the term "tide coal" doesn't work when you
refer to N&W hoppers...assuming you refer to the Atlantic coast "tide". From
Richard Prince's Norfolk & Western Pocahontas coal carrier, pg 240, "In 1948
N&W originated 52,000,000 tons of coal. Of that, 22,000,000 tons went west
by rail. 10,000,000 tons went through Sandusky and Toledo Great Lake ports.
Of the remaining 20,000,000 tons going east, about 10,000,000 tons went
through Lambert Point [ tide ], 2,500,000 tons went into the Carolina's. The
remainder went north into Maryland and DC and the rest was consumed in VA.
However, as you suggest, little if any went into New England...wherever that
is.

Mike Brock


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

Ahhh, but that's the point, Tim. Those states are not northern New England. What coal came into northern New England from the N&W, C&O
and Virginian areas I suspect came in on water and was delivered from
places like Boston, Salem, Portsmouth, Portland and Searsport in hopper cars of teh B&M, MEC and BAR rather than those of the originating roads. Thus I'll find a way to justify one InterMountain C&O hopper rather than four or five and be satisfied with that.

Cordially, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Mike, this seems incorrect to me. N&W (and no doubt C&O, B&O, VGN, NYC)
shipped WV coal to New England, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York.
There are photos. Of course some may be loaded with other coal, but at
least we can say that N&W hoppers made it to those states.

Tim O'Connor



Don Valentine writes:

"This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
wonder just how many C&O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
seems to be even more the case with N&W and Virginian hoppers. Can
someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?"

Well, as I have noted before, the term "tide coal" doesn't work when you
refer to N&W hoppers...assuming you refer to the Atlantic coast "tide". From
Richard Prince's Norfolk & Western Pocahontas coal carrier, pg 240, "In 1948
N&W originated 52,000,000 tons of coal. Of that, 22,000,000 tons went west
by rail. 10,000,000 tons went through Sandusky and Toledo Great Lake ports.
Of the remaining 20,000,000 tons going east, about 10,000,000 tons went
through Lambert Point [ tide ], 2,500,000 tons went into the Carolina's. The
remainder went north into Maryland and DC and the rest was consumed in VA.
However, as you suggest, little if any went into New England...wherever that
is.

Mike Brock


Guy Wilber
 

Brian wrote:

I know Guy Wilber and other have posted regarding documents or a
document that required railroads to return C&O, NW, and Virginian cars
(Pocahontas region cars) as quickly as possible.

Brian,

One of the many prominent orders issued by the ICC or The Car Service
Division regarding the use of open top equipment was C-411 issued by the
American Railway Association on September 23, 1924. The original order required
cars from the C&O, L&N, and N&W railroads to be returned empty to company
rails. In general, these three roads were granted this privilege due to the
high percentage of their coal loads being delivered and unloaded off line
and few foreign open top cars being terminated on their respective lines.

Order C-411 was canceled and reissued several times throughout the 1920's
and 1930's generally based on mine production which fluctuated due in part
to manufacturing peaks, seasonal heating needs, and union strikes within
the United States as well as abroad (Great Britain, 1926) creating greater
demands for exported coal.

C-411 was made a standing order in October of 1938 by the AAR's CSD. The
first mention I have seen of the Virginian RR cars being included within
the order was November, 1928, although it may have occurred earlier.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Mikebrock
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

"Mike, this seems incorrect to me. N&W (and no doubt C&O, B&O, VGN, NYC)
shipped WV coal to New England, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York.
There are photos. Of course some may be loaded with other coal, but at
least we can say that N&W hoppers made it to those states."

Well, Tim, it's like in the game of golf. It's not how far, it's how many. Sure, N&W hoppers made it to Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York and New England. But Don implied that N&W hauled coal that did NOT go into New England went through Atlantic ports...read that Lambert's Point. The point I was making [ neat, eh? ] is that the majority of N&W originated coal went into the midwest and the Great Lakes. Even then, Prince said that one fifth of such coal DID go through the Lambert's Point. Another point [ just my day, I guess ] is that many, many videos and photos have been made showing seemingly endless trains of N&W hoppers being led into...uh...the Norfolk area giving fuel to the impression that, that's where most of it went.

Keep in mind that B&O, C&O, Pennsy, WM and NYC to a lesser extent were hauling coal around and through New Jersey, Pennsylvania and New York. Add in others like D&H, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, NYO&W [ My God, there's still one of their hoppers sitting in Buford, WY, [ or Bruceford depending upon your perspective ], and Central New Jersey and its easy to see why N&W originated coal didn't find itself in those areas significantly. I mean, why? Nor, I guess, in New England via N&W hoppers. And, Northern New England? That sounds like differentiating between northern and southern Montana. I mean...is there such a place?

Mike Brock


switchengines <jrs060@...>
 

Don, you are correct, a huge portion of the soft coal consumed in New England did indeed arrive by water transportation to be loaded into local railroad rail cars at ports.
One great example of that, as you pointed out, is the BAR at Searsport, Maine satisfy-
ing the needs of the paper mills in the Millinocket area. What it all boiled down to was
keeping the cost of fuel as low possible for the customer. It would be, I suspect, more
common to have seen hard coal (anthracite) railroad hoppers in northern New England
as it was not commonly water born being shipped in smaller amounts?
What I'm immensely happy about is that I can have some of these very neat cars on
my layout, they were regulars in the all of the heartland. Indeed, you would have to
explain why you didn't have an L&N or C&O hopper in your Chicago coal yard, but they
did appear all throughout the midwest at coal yards and large industries. The coal they carried was of very high quality for both home heating and industrial use (think metallurgical coke for steel making) and it was available at a good price due to it's transportation cost being low because of short rail mileages. It was common to have
large cuts of coal in C&O hoppers arriving at steel mills in northern Indiana for example.
There are a few problems with the lettering on the IM C&O cars, and other road
name offerings also, but it is getting fixed right now due some quick efforts on the
part of some people connected with the project. So it's a safe beat to order the cars
if your interested in having them, as it does look to be an outstanding offering.

Jerry Stewart

--- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Ahhh, but that's the point, Tim. Those states are not northern New England. What coal came into northern New England from the N&W, C&O
and Virginian areas I suspect came in on water and was delivered from
places like Boston, Salem, Portsmouth, Portland and Searsport in hopper cars of teh B&M, MEC and BAR rather than those of the originating roads. Thus I'll find a way to justify one InterMountain C&O hopper rather than four or five and be satisfied with that.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Tim O'Connor
 

For the record Mike, of 249 hoppers on Rutland train #9 in December of 1950
> there were actually three N&W hoppers. All were triples. Armand Premo

And there you have it. However, if I understand Mike's unusually
obfuscated argument, these cars could have been routed via Maryland
(Hagerstown etc) or Washington D.C. -OR- they could have been
routed "west" through interchanges that resulted in the cars
travelling along either side of the Ohio River into PA and NY. So
I'm guessing Mike does allow for a small number of N&W cars to bring
coal directly to New England states. Three hoppers in 30 days is one
hopper every 10 days -- worthy of modeling IMO if your operations
can accomodate regularly irregular visitors.

Tim O'Connor


Charles Hostetler
 

Hi Don, I think there were modelable rail flows of bituminous coal from W. Va. to Vt., N.H., and Maine. &nbsp;For Vermont and New Hampshire, the 1% carload waybill survey suggest in 1952 and 1957 that all rail flows were dominant; for Maine marine/rail redistributional shipments were dominant. &nbsp;I&#39;ve posted the data here together with some comments: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/09/on-stfmc-list-don-valentine-wrote.html Regards, Charles Hostetler --- In stmfc@..., &lt;riverman_vt@...&gt; wrote: Ahhh, but that&#39;s the point, Tim. Those states are not northern New England. What coal came into northern New England from the N&amp;W, C&amp;O
and Virginian areas I suspect came in on water and was delivered from
places like Boston, Salem, Portsmouth, Portland and Searsport in hopper cars of teh B&amp;M, MEC and BAR rather than those of the originating roads. Thus I&#39;ll find a way to justify one InterMountain C&amp;O hopper rather than four or five and be satisfied with that.

Cordially, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@... , Tim O&#39;Connor &lt;timboconnor@...&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Mike, this seems incorrect to me. N&amp;W (and no doubt C&amp;O, B&amp;O, VGN, NYC)
&gt; shipped WV coal to New England, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York.
&gt; There are photos. Of course some may be loaded with other coal, but at
&gt; least we can say that N&amp;W hoppers made it to those states.
&gt;
&gt; Tim O&#39;Connor
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Don Valentine writes:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&quot;This maybe the luck of the draw but has also caused me to
&gt; &gt;wonder just how many C&amp;O hoppers ever made it to northern New England
&gt; &gt;rather than spent their entire lives in tide coal traffic. The same
&gt; &gt;seems to be even more the case with N&amp;W and Virginian hoppers. Can
&gt; &gt;someone offer some knowledgeable advise on this topic?&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Well, as I have noted before, the term &quot;tide coal&quot; doesn&#39;t work when you
&gt; &gt;refer to N&amp;W hoppers...assuming you refer to the Atlantic coast &quot;tide&quot;. From
&gt; &gt;Richard Prince&#39;s Norfolk &amp; Western Pocahontas coal carrier, pg 240, &quot;In 1948
&gt; &gt;N&amp;W originated 52,000,000 tons of coal. Of that, 22,000,000 tons went west
&gt; &gt;by rail. 10,000,000 tons went through Sandusky and Toledo Great Lake ports.
&gt; &gt;Of the remaining 20,000,000 tons going east, about 10,000,000 tons went
&gt; &gt;through Lambert Point [ tide ], 2,500,000 tons went into the Carolina&#39;s. The
&gt; &gt;remainder went north into Maryland and DC and the rest was consumed in VA.
&gt; &gt;However, as you suggest, little if any went into New England...wherever that
&gt; &gt;is.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Mike Brock
&gt;


Charles Hladik
 

Mike,
I'll have to find which book it's in, but there is a photo of an N&W
hopper on the Rutland's Alburgh coal trestle. Believe it's in the Nimke
series.
Chuck Hladik
RRHS
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division

In a message dated 9/1/2013 8:45:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brockm@... writes:




Tim O'Connor writes:

"Mike, this seems incorrect to me. N&W (and no doubt C&O, B&O, VGN, NYC)
shipped WV coal to New England, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York.
There are photos. Of course some may be loaded with other coal, but at
least we can say that N&W hoppers made it to those states."

Well, Tim, it's like in the game of golf. It's not how far, it's how many.
Sure, N&W hoppers made it to Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York and New
England. But Don implied that N&W hauled coal that did NOT go into New
England went through Atlantic ports...read that Lambert's Point. The point
I
was making [ neat, eh? ] is that the majority of N&W originated coal went
into the midwest and the Great Lakes. Even then, Prince said that one
fifth
of such coal DID go through the Lambert's Point. Another point [ just my
day, I guess ] is that many, many videos and photos have been made showing
seemingly endless trains of N&W hoppers being led into...uh...the Norfolk
area giving fuel to the impression that, that's where most of it went.

Keep in mind that B&O, C&O, Pennsy, WM and NYC to a lesser extent were
hauling coal around and through New Jersey, Pennsylvania and New York. Add
in others like D&H, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, NYO&W [ My God, there's
still
one of their hoppers sitting in Buford, WY, [ or Bruceford depending upon
your perspective ], and Central New Jersey and its easy to see why N&W
originated coal didn't find itself in those areas significantly. I mean,
why? Nor, I guess, in New England via N&W hoppers. And, Northern New
England? That sounds like differentiating between northern and southern
Montana. I mean...is there such a place?

Mike Brock


Benjamin Hom
 

Armand Premo wrote:
"For the record Mike, of 249 hoppers on Rutland train #9 in December of 1950 there were actually three N&W hoppers. All were triples."
Tim O'Connor replied:
"Three hoppers in 30 days is one
hopper every 10 days -- worthy of modeling IMO if your operations
can accomodate regularly irregular visitors."
 
Here's some more data pulled from shifting lists from Armand' collection for 1950:
 
Month/# of days/# of cars/# of N&W hoppers
March 1950/7/62/1 (N&W 80753)
May 1950/1/3/0
June 1950/3/18/0
July 1950/22/143/0
September 1950/3/10/0
October 1950/18/181/2 (N&W 4867, 70839)
November 1950/28/244/0
 
Admittedly, a limited sample size (it's like looking through a straw); however, 3 cars out of 661 is decimal dust.
 
 
Ben Hom


Mikebrock
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

"However, if I understand Mike's unusually
obfuscated argument,"

Odd, I thought it was rather clear. And, I'm not arguing anything. Just reporting on something Richard Prince argued.

"...these cars could have been routed via Maryland
(Hagerstown etc) or Washington D.C. -OR- they could have been
routed "west" through interchanges that resulted in the cars
travelling along either side of the Ohio River into PA and NY."

They might even have been routed through Memphis for all I know.

"So I'm guessing Mike does allow for a small number of N&W cars to bring
coal directly to New England states."

Actually, Mike doesn't allow much of anything except possibly that when all this happened [ 1948 ] Mike was MUCH more interested in Sharon East than N&W hopper cars. Richard Prince, however, had, I guess, never heard of Sharon so I can understand his interest in N&W coal traffic.

"Three hoppers in 30 days is one
hopper every 10 days -- worthy of modeling IMO if your operations
can accomodate regularly irregular visitors."

And, to be sure, I don't care if a modeler uses nothing but N&W hoppers painted blue. My reason for replying was to inform those interested that N&W coal traffic was NOT simply that to New England [ wherever that is ] and tide water [ Norfolk ]. Incidentally, there are some nice photos of complete trains of N&W hoppers being pulled by Santa Fe 2-10-4's on the Pennsy and trains of N&W hoppers being pulled by NYC diesels. Both of these were northbound to the Great Lakes.

Mike Brock


Tim O'Connor
 

Ben, it would be nice to know the DEC/JAN/FEB data -- coal
in small volumes is most likely to be consumed for heating
in the winter, and the only N&W cars listed here are in March
and October, which are colder months in Vermont -- but not the
coldest months! :-)

I assume this is all hopper car data we're looking at? If so,
what could have caused that burst of hopper cars in July?

Tim O'



Here's some more data pulled from shifting lists from Armand' collection for 1950:

Month/ # of days/ # of cars/ # of N&W hoppers

Mar 1950 7/ 62/ 1 (N&W 80753)
May 1950 1/ 3/ 0
June 1950 3/ 18/ 0
July 1950 22/ 143/ 0
Sept 1950 3/ 10/ 0
Oct 1950 18/ 181/ 2 (N&W 4867, 70839)
Nov 1950 28/ 244/ 0

Admittedly, a limited sample size (it's like looking through a straw); however, 3 cars
out of 661 is decimal dust.

Ben Hom


Armand Premo
 

And then there is Sherman Hill.<VBG>Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New InterMountain C&O hopper



Tim O'Connor writes:

"However, if I understand Mike's unusually
obfuscated argument,"

Odd, I thought it was rather clear. And, I'm not arguing anything. Just
reporting on something Richard Prince argued.

"...these cars could have been routed via Maryland
(Hagerstown etc) or Washington D.C. -OR- they could have been
routed "west" through interchanges that resulted in the cars
travelling along either side of the Ohio River into PA and NY."

They might even have been routed through Memphis for all I know.

"So I'm guessing Mike does allow for a small number of N&W cars to bring
coal directly to New England states."

Actually, Mike doesn't allow much of anything except possibly that when all
this happened [ 1948 ] Mike was MUCH more interested in Sharon East than N&W
hopper cars. Richard Prince, however, had, I guess, never heard of Sharon so
I can understand his interest in N&W coal traffic.

"Three hoppers in 30 days is one
hopper every 10 days -- worthy of modeling IMO if your operations
can accomodate regularly irregular visitors."

And, to be sure, I don't care if a modeler uses nothing but N&W hoppers
painted blue. My reason for replying was to inform those interested that N&W
coal traffic was NOT simply that to New England [ wherever that is ] and
tide water [ Norfolk ]. Incidentally, there are some nice photos of complete
trains of N&W hoppers being pulled by Santa Fe 2-10-4's on the Pennsy and
trains of N&W hoppers being pulled by NYC diesels. Both of these were
northbound to the Great Lakes.

Mike Brock


Armand Premo
 

Gentlemen,Remember this data is from just one train.There are some other very surprising anomalies that would be even more statistically insignificant.Enough to generate a touch of realism for those Doubting Thomas's.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 12:33 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New InterMountain C&O hopper




Ben, it would be nice to know the DEC/JAN/FEB data -- coal
in small volumes is most likely to be consumed for heating
in the winter, and the only N&W cars listed here are in March
and October, which are colder months in Vermont -- but not the
coldest months! :-)

I assume this is all hopper car data we're looking at? If so,
what could have caused that burst of hopper cars in July?

Tim O'

Here's some more data pulled from shifting lists from Armand' collection for 1950:

Month/ # of days/ # of cars/ # of N&W hoppers

Mar 1950 7/ 62/ 1 (N&W 80753)
May 1950 1/ 3/ 0
June 1950 3/ 18/ 0
July 1950 22/ 143/ 0
Sept 1950 3/ 10/ 0
Oct 1950 18/ 181/ 2 (N&W 4867, 70839)
Nov 1950 28/ 244/ 0

Admittedly, a limited sample size (it's like looking through a straw); however, 3 cars
out of 661 is decimal dust.

Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"...it would be nice to know the DEC/JAN/FEB data -- coal
in small volumes is most likely to be consumed for heating
in the winter, and the only N&W cars listed here are in March
and October, which are colder months in Vermont -- but not the
coldest months! :-)

I assume this is all hopper car data we're looking at? If so,
what could have caused that burst of hopper cars in July?"
 
It would be nice to know the data, but unfortunately, this is all I've got.  (Hence my comment about looking at this through a straw.)  This is indeed all hopper car data - as for the "burst" in hoppers in July, look again at the number of days covered.  The "burst" is simply more data points.
 
 
Ben Hom 

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