Most needed car? (Seley hoopers)


Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Steve 

The photos get stripped - please do upload these to the photos section so we can see them

The problem we face with such a prototype is that Seley hoopers were a style of construction rather a single design like say USRA cars were. No two designs were sufficiently alike for me to see much commonality in tooling between the various roads that had them.

I don't regard myself as knowledgeable about the Frisco cars except to know they had some.

SOU had three different designs, each slightly different. The version that lasted longest (into the 1960s) is the 1920s built cars offered by F&C in resin, but making the early cars from these would involve some quite extensive kit-bashing - for example some had wooden ends rather than steel. These are nice little kits and a good introduction to building flat pack hoppers. F&C also do some D&H cars.

I presume the M&O cars had common origins with some of the SOU cars, but haven't looked into them at this stage. M&O was controlled by Southern until the 1930s and some locomotives passenger and freight cars were built to Southern designs. For example the modified USRA light 2-8-2s were built to the same design as the AGS and CNOTP versions , and of course there were 36- and 40-foot SU boxcars and a few 66 foot passenger cars as modeled by Rivarossi.  

Aidrian


On 26/10/2013, at 12:25 PM, Steve H wrote:

 

Hey Ben,
 
In my original post I included photos of some of these cars so I don't know if you saw them or not.
 
Railroads that I know of that had Seley hoppers: N&W, SRR, M&O, Frisco, D&H.
 
 


Steve and Barb Hile
 

For what it might be worth, the Rock Island had 250 Seley hoppers, 89750 – 89999, but they were gone before WWII.

 

Steve Hile

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 10:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car? (Seley hoopers)

 

 

Steve 

 

The photos get stripped - please do upload these to the photos section so we can see them

 

The problem we face with such a prototype is that Seley hoopers were a style of construction rather a single design like say USRA cars were. No two designs were sufficiently alike for me to see much commonality in tooling between the various roads that had them.

 

I don't regard myself as knowledgeable about the Frisco cars except to know they had some.

 

SOU had three different designs, each slightly different. The version that lasted longest (into the 1960s) is the 1920s built cars offered by F&C in resin, but making the early cars from these would involve some quite extensive kit-bashing - for example some had wooden ends rather than steel. These are nice little kits and a good introduction to building flat pack hoppers. F&C also do some D&H cars.

 

I presume the M&O cars had common origins with some of the SOU cars, but haven't looked into them at this stage. M&O was controlled by Southern until the 1930s and some locomotives passenger and freight cars were built to Southern designs. For example the modified USRA light 2-8-2s were built to the same design as the AGS and CNOTP versions , and of course there were 36- and 40-foot SU boxcars and a few 66 foot passenger cars as modeled by Rivarossi.  

 

Aidrian

 

 

On 26/10/2013, at 12:25 PM, Steve H wrote:



 

 

Hey Ben,

 

In my original post I included photos of some of these cars so I don't know if you saw them or not.

 

Railroads that I know of that had Seley hoppers: N&W, SRR, M&O, Frisco, D&H.

 

 

 


Ray Breyer
 

The problem we face with such a prototype is that Seley hoppers were a
style of construction rather a single design like say USRA cars were. No two
designs were sufficiently alike for me to see much commonality in tooling
between the various roads that had them.
Aidrian

Hi guys,


I've been interested in Seley hoppers for a while, since like 36' double sheathed boxcars and all-wood gons, they're something that the average pre-Depression era modeler needs a few of. Aidrian's right though: in general, there were several different varieties of these hoppers running around, which makes marketing a model of them difficult.

But there weren't ALL that many types. I need to do an in-depth examination of the car type, but just by looking at the data that I could find last night, they can be broken down into four general "types": D&H, N&W, Southern and SAL, The D&H and SAL cars seem to be unique to those roads, but in general, the N&W and Southern cars were copied by everyone else. Details and dimensions changed, but the overall "look" of the vast bulk of these cars mostly fall under those types.

As a topic-stretcher, here's what I was able to come up with as a quick & dirty Seley hopper roster last night:

AB&A - 250 (to ACL)
B&O - 3000
B&M - 100
Berwind-White Coal Mining Co. - (unknown)
C&O - (unknown)
Coal & Coke Co. - 275
Cumberland & Pennsylvania - 1500
Deepwater - 500 (to Virginian)
D&H - (unknown; thousands)
Fairmont Coal Co - 1700 (to B&O)
GB&W - 25 (from Virginian)
Island Creek Coal Co. - 200
L&HR - 500
L&N - 250
M&O - (unknown; to GM&O)
NC&StL - (unknown)
Norfolk Southern - 50
NYO&W - 1350
N&W - (unknown; thousands)
RI - 250
Sandy Creek Coal Co. - 300
SLSF - 500
SAL - 300
Southern - 4,600 (also AGS and CNO&TP)
TStL&W - 45 (to NKP)

And here's a few railroads thay MAY have had Seley-type hoppers, but which will require a bit more digging:
Buffalo & Susquehanna
C of Ga
C&O
GN
These roads may well have had all wood cars that at a glance "kinda sorta" look like Seleys (by definition, a Seley hopper has to have steel channel outside bracing).

Hope this helps,

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

(as a personal preference, I'd be happy with styrene models of the modified D&H Seleys and with the N&W's HG or HH class cars. Those two have the best chance of selling to the Great Unwashed, and cover the largest groups of cars)


Todd Horton
 

C of Ga    < The Central didn't have these.
 
Todd Horton


On Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:43 AM, Ray Breyer wrote:
 
>The problem we face with such a prototype is that Seley hoppers were a
>style of construction rather a single design like say USRA cars were. No two
>designs were sufficiently alike for me to see much commonality in tooling

>between the various roads that had them.
>Aidrian

Hi guys,

I've been interested in Seley hoppers for a while, since like 36' double sheathed boxcars and all-wood gons, they're something that the average pre-Depression era modeler needs a few of. Aidrian's right though: in general, there were several different varieties of these hoppers running around, which makes marketing a model of them difficult.

But there weren't ALL that many types. I need to do an in-depth examination of the car type, but just by looking at the data that I could find last night, they can be broken down into four general "types": D&H, N&W, Southern and SAL, The D&H and SAL cars seem to be unique to those roads, but in general, the N&W and Southern cars were copied by everyone else. Details and dimensions changed, but the overall "look" of the vast bulk of these cars mostly fall under those types.

As a topic-stretcher, here's what I was able to come up with as a quick & dirty Seley hopper roster last night:

AB&A - 250 (to ACL)
B&O - 3000
B&M - 100
Berwind-White Coal Mining Co. - (unknown)
C&O - (unknown)
Coal & Coke Co. - 275
Cumberland & Pennsylvania - 1500
Deepwater - 500 (to Virginian)
D&H - (unknown; thousands)
Fairmont Coal Co - 1700 (to B&O)
GB&W - 25 (from Virginian)
Island Creek Coal Co. - 200
L&HR - 500
L&N - 250
M&O - (unknown; to GM&O)
NC&StL - (unknown)
Norfolk Southern - 50
NYO&W - 1350
N&W - (unknown; thousands)
RI - 250
Sandy Creek Coal Co. - 300
SLSF - 500
SAL - 300
Southern - 4,600 (also AGS and CNO&TP)
TStL&W - 45 (to NKP)

And here's a few railroads thay MAY have had Seley-type hoppers, but which will require a bit more digging:
Buffalo & Susquehanna
C of Ga
C&O
GN
These roads may well have had all wood cars that at a glance "kinda sorta" look like Seleys (by definition, a Seley hopper has to have steel channel outside bracing).

Hope this helps,

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

(as a personal preference, I'd be happy with styrene models of the modified D&H Seleys and with the N&W's HG or HH class cars. Those two have the best chance of selling to the Great Unwashed, and cover the largest groups of cars)



Earl Tuson
 

Ray Breyer says,

The D&H and SAL cars seem to be unique to those roads,
The 100 B&M cars (5900-5999, SSC 1905) appear to have been diverted from a D&H order to the New England road.
The cars were identical, and the builder's photo shows a D&H car number that never appeared in the ORER. B&M class
cards even identify them as "D&H hopper gondola cars."

Earl Tuson


rwitt_2000
 

Ray,

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the name, but I believe the correct name is the "Sunday Creek Coal Co." not the "Sandy Creek Coal Company". These cars were numbered into B&O series, but lettered for the Sunday Creek Coal Co. These "Seley" clones were assigned class N-11 by the B&O and the class was assigned to the hoppers for the Fairmont Coal Co.

Also you maybe counting the cars twice. The one equipment diagram for the B&O class N-11 I have lists 1980 cars in the series 130020-131999 with the cars number 130020-131699 coming from the "Fairmont Coal Co. originally numbered 3000-4699, and car numbers 131700-131799 coming from "Sandy (sic) Creek Coal Co." numbered as at present (i.e. the same numbers).

Hopefully this information will help clarify your rosters.

Regards,

Bob Witt

 



---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote:

C of Ga    < The Central didn't have these.
 
Todd Horton


On Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:43 AM, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
 
>The problem we face with such a prototype is that Seley hoppers were a
>style of construction rather a single design like say USRA cars were. No two
>designs were sufficiently alike for me to see much commonality in tooling

>between the various roads that had them.
>Aidrian

Hi guys,

I've been interested in Seley hoppers for a while, since like 36' double sheathed boxcars and all-wood gons, they're something that the average pre-Depression era modeler needs a few of. Aidrian's right though: in general, there were several different varieties of these hoppers running around, which makes marketing a model of them difficult.

But there weren't ALL that many types. I need to do an in-depth examination of the car type, but just by looking at the data that I could find last night, they can be broken down into four general "types": D&H, N&W, Southern and SAL, The D&H and SAL cars seem to be unique to those roads, but in general, the N&W and Southern cars were copied by everyone else. Details and dimensions changed, but the overall "look" of the vast bulk of these cars mostly fall under those types.

As a topic-stretcher, here's what I was able to come up with as a quick & dirty Seley hopper roster last night:

AB&A - 250 (to ACL)
B&O - 3000
B&M - 100
Berwind-White Coal Mining Co. - (unknown)
C&O - (unknown)
Coal & Coke Co. - 275
Cumberland & Pennsylvania - 1500
Deepwater - 500 (to Virginian)
D&H - (unknown; thousands)
Fairmont Coal Co - 1700 (to B&O)
GB&W - 25 (from Virginian)
Island Creek Coal Co. - 200
L&HR - 500
L&N - 250
M&O - (unknown; to GM&O)
NC&StL - (unknown)
Norfolk Southern - 50
NYO&W - 1350
N&W - (unknown; thousands)
RI - 250
Sandy Creek Coal Co. - 300
SLSF - 500
SAL - 300
Southern - 4,600 (also AGS and CNO&TP)
TStL&W - 45 (to NKP)

And here's a few railroads thay MAY have had Seley-type hoppers, but which will require a bit more digging:
Buffalo & Susquehanna
C of Ga
C&O
GN
These roads may well have had all wood cars that at a glance "kinda sorta" look like Seleys (by definition, a Seley hopper has to have steel channel outside bracing).

Hope this helps,

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

(as a personal preference, I'd be happy with styrene models of the modified D&H Seleys and with the N&W's HG or HH class cars. Those two have the best chance of selling to the Great Unwashed, and cover the largest groups of cars)



Ray Breyer
 

Thanks Earl! I'll add this information in to my data pile.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


From: Earl Tuson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car? (Seley hoopers)

Ray Breyer says,

> The D&H and SAL cars seem to be unique to those roads,

The 100 B&M cars (5900-5999, SSC 1905) appear to have been diverted from a D&H order to the New England road. 
The cars were identical, and the builder's photo shows a D&H car number that never appeared in the ORER.  B&M class
cards even identify them as "D&H hopper gondola cars."

Earl Tuson


Ray Breyer
 

C of Ga    < The Central didn't have these.
Todd Horton
Thanks Todd; I'll scrub the CofG from the list.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Ray Breyer
 

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the name, but I believe the correct >name is the "Sunday Creek Coal Co."
Also you maybe counting the cars twice.
Hopefully this information will help clarify your rosters.
Bob Witt
Hi Bob,


You're likely right on both counts. I whipped up this preliminary roster in a couple of hours in the dark of night! I'll look into the Sandy/Sunday issue when I get a chance. As for the roster, any time a reporting mark shows up, it'll get added! I'll later trace the origins of each. It's simpler to list them that way for a variety of reasons.

Regards,

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL