Opening End Door Boxcars
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Brad Andonian
Fellas, I am curious what roads (other than SP) had auto boxcars with opening end doors. I was searching on google and while I saw model images, I was not able to source any prototypical information or articles. Any and all relevant info would be appreciated. I also noticed lionel did various road names; curious if they are actually a scale model as their ps cars are... With thanks, Brad Andonian
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James SANDIFER
I would call it a standard practice, so many
railroads had auto boxcars with end doors. The list will be long.
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J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer mailto:steve.sandifer@... Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918 Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417
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Brad I would say most. PRR Erie CV and LV and ones I have photos of. Brian Carlson
On Nov 19, 2013, at 10:45 AM, Brad Andonian <cereshill@...> wrote:
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Brad, I just did a quick filter on my box car data and came up with 495 series with auto end doors. It is indeed "a long list." This dump includes new cars built with the doors as well as renumbered cars and includes cars with doors functional and doors fixed in place. It includes all such cars built between 1910 and 1944 and those rebuilt during that time and after. No distinction was made for construction and so wood, composite and all-steel cars are included. If there are some particular parameters that interest you I can narrow the output but am glad to send you the whole dump off-list if you want it. Eric Lombard Homewood, IL ---In STMFC@..., <prrk41361@...> wrote: Brad I would say most. PRR Erie CV and LV and ones I have photos of. Brian Carlson
On Nov 19, 2013, at 10:45 AM, Brad Andonian <cereshill@...> wrote:
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Dave Sarther
Brad,
The CB&Q had auto cars with end doors. If you have Volume 12 of the RPCYC a few photos of these cars can be referenced in an article co-authored by Bat Masterson, Hol Wagner and Al Hoffman of the BRHS along with a photo of their unique extended height "Bomber Box Cars".
Later, Dave Sarther Tucson, AZ
-----Original Message----- From: Brad Andonian To: STMFC Sent: Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:45 am Subject: [STMFC] Opening End Door Boxcars Fellas,
I am curious what roads (other than SP) had auto boxcars with opening end doors. I was searching on google and while I saw model images, I was not able to source any prototypical information or articles. Any and all relevant info would be appreciated. I also noticed lionel did various road names; curious if they are actually a scale model as their ps cars are...
With thanks,
Brad Andonian
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np328
The NP had quite a few. The 6000 and 8000 series readily come to mind and I am sure there were more on the NP.
I had dug up some data at the MNHS from AAR WWII reports and these end door cars were very much in demand at that time for moving small trucks and other military vehicles and such.
There are other reports that I have seen that note that the ends doors affected the dimensional stability of the car, (I know there are some of you with engineering degrees, and if you can think of a better terminology, I will not take offense), and this caused some of the end doors on the NP cars to later be made solid. Jim Dick - St. Paul ---In STMFC@..., <cereshill@...> wrote: Fellas,
I am curious what roads (other than SP) had auto boxcars with opening end doors. I was searching on google and while I saw model images, I was not able to source any prototypical information or articles. Any and all relevant info would be appreciated. I also noticed lionel did various road names; curious if they are actually a scale model as their ps cars are...
With thanks,
Brad Andonian
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If you look in the Official Railway Equipment Register there is
an appendix of "Serial Numbers & Description of Automobile Cars Equipped With Auto Racks" -- Now, this is not a complete list of all end-door equipped box cars, but there is a column for "Width of End Doors" and scanning down that column you can tell which railroad box car number series (with auto racks) had end doors. In 1953 the list is ATSF, CP, CB&Q, CRI&P, ERIE, LV, NYC, SLSF, and SOU. I know this is definitely not a complete list, because C&O, CN, IC, MKT, MP, NKP, SP, UP, WABASH and WP had end-door box cars too. Tim O'Connor
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Jim Dick wrote
> The NP had quite a few. The 6000 and 8000 series readily come > to mind and I am sure there were more on the NP. Regarding the Northern Pacific: You have to be careful with "end doors" because what we usually call "lumber doors" are listed in the Equipment Register as "end doors". In 1953 8000-8099 are listed with 1'6" x 1'0" lumber doors. There is no 6000 series in the 1940, 1950 or 1953 ORER's. This series was populated in the late 1950's with modern 50' double door cars. None of the new cars had end doors. In 1953 there is one series, 4700-4998, 50' steel underframe box cars (single sheathed) with full size end doors. I'd forgotten about those. Tim O'Connor
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np328
Tim, the 6000 class were delivered, having full size (drive a truck into) end doors. Some were later rebuilt into the 30000 class and as I had stated, had end doors modified by then. You listed the 40-53 time frame. In the thirties (well within the scope of this group and a time you did not mention) a different picture very is present. Jim Dick - St. Paul ---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote: Jim Dick wrote > The NP had quite a few. The 6000 and 8000 series readily comeRegarding the Northern Pacific: You have to be careful with "end doors" because what we usually call "lumber doors" are listed in the Equipment Register as "end doors". In 1953 8000-8099 are listed with 1'6" x 1'0" lumber doors. There is no 6000 series in the 1940, 1950 or 1953 ORER's. This series was populated in the late 1950's with modern 50' double door cars. None of the new cars had end doors. In 1953 there is one series, 4700-4998, 50' steel underframe box cars (single sheathed) with full size end doors. I'd forgotten about those. Tim O'Connor
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Tony Thompson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tim makes a good point. You can tell immediately in the ORER because the dimensions of a "lumber door" are quite small compared to a full end door. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Jim
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That's why I qualified my statements with dates. You did not. Tim O'Connor
Tim, the 6000 class were delivered, having full size (drive a truck into) end doors. Some were later rebuilt into the 30000 class and as I had stated, had end doors modified by then. You listed the 40-53 time frame. In the thirties (well within the scope of this group and a time you did not mention) a different picture very is present. Jim Dick - St. Paul
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Many roads, I'm sure but I know for a fact that the Southern had both 40 and 50 foot cars with end doors. Fenton Wells
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Brad Andonian <cereshill@...> wrote:
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Alexander Schneider Jr
Very interesting. Are any photos of the interior of such cars available on line? I'm trying to figure out what "floor
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
tubes" look like. This tabulation is referred to as AAR Bulletin No. 28. The heading of this bulleting indicates that it covers XAR and XMR types, which apparently differ in that the former were not lined and were not suitable for general loading while the latter were lines and suitable for general loading. However the table does not indicate which type applied to a particular group of cars. Most of the cars listed had auto racks, some had end doors, and a few had both. Alex Schneider
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:32 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Opening End Door Boxcars If you look in the Official Railway Equipment Register there is an appendix of "Serial Numbers & Description of Automobile Cars Equipped With Auto Racks" -- Now, this is not a complete list of all end-door equipped box cars, but there is a column for "Width of End Doors" and scanning down that column you can tell which railroad box car number series (with auto racks) had end doors. In 1953 the list is ATSF, CP, CB&Q, CRI&P, ERIE, LV, NYC, SLSF, and SOU. I know this is definitely not a complete list, because C&O, CN, IC, MKT, MP, NKP, SP, UP, WABASH and WP had end-door box cars too. Tim O'Connor ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links
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Richard Hendrickson
On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:56 PM, Alex Schneider <aschneiderjr@...> wrote:
Alex, floor tubes were barely visible from the inside of the car. They were basically steel tubes that extended down below the floor as containers for chains. When the auto racks were in use, the chains could be pulled up out of the tubes. When the racks were not in use, the chains disappear entirely into the tubes, leaving an uncluttered floor. I’m sending you off-list a scan of a photo in which the floor tubes are visible extending below the underframe and side sills. Richard Hendrickson
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Alex, floor tubes, also known as a floor well, were usually large pieces of pipe hanging vertically down from the car floor, in which tie down chains could be stored out of the way. Easily modeled with a piece of styrene rod glued to the underside of your auto boxcar. A close look at auto boxcars undersides will show the tubes hanging down.
The AAR Pamphlet #28 you cite must be a much later version. The one I have is for “Methods for Loading, Bracing and Blocking Carload Shipments of Cast Iron Radiators in Closed Cars” issued Oct 1936, Revised Jan 1942.
In 1949 the AAR pamphlet #1 addressed “Motor Vehicles Shipped Carload in Auto Loader Cars” ie the loading of automobiles in loader equipped boxcars.
There is no #28 in the current list www.nscorp.com/nscorphtml/ncsc/aar_car_loading.xlsx
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Guy Wilber
In a message dated 11/21/2013 4:12:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
doug.harding@... writes:
Alex is correct, and referring to BULLETIN 28 issued by the Car Service
Division of the AAR beginning in January of 1945 which listed all auto cars
equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders or NYC Loaders or cars equipped only with floor
tubes used in transporting larger motor vehicles, farm machinery, etc.
Printed in all subsequent ORER's as well as issued in pamphlet form
from the CSD of the AAR which included additional currently released circulars
and service orders regarding the use of auto cars equipped with loaders.
You are referring to a Closed Car Loading Pamphlet which was one of a
series of pamphlets issued by the Operating-Transportation Division of the ARA
or AAR.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Guy Wilber
Alex wrote:
"Very interesting. Are any photos of the interior of such cars available on line? I'm trying to figure out what "floor tubes" look like." Any interior photos will only show the location of the
floor tubes which were capped with a brass casting fitted with a hinged cover
plate. The casting and cover plate assembly was flush with the
top of the floor and sometimes barely discernible within
interior photos. The bulk of floor tube assembly was below the
flooring of auto cars.
Floor tubes were either round (5" OD) or oval (5" x
6" OD) and varied in length from 20" to 28". Tubes were mounted
perpendicular to the floor or at slight angles in order to clear various
brake gear components, etc. Auto cars equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders
could be fitted with as few as eight or as many as sixteen floor tubes depending
on the model of the loader. Early NYC loaders did not utilize floor
tubes while the later model did as the NYC purchased the tie down assemblies and
floor tubes from Evans; the latter design was commonly referred to as the
NYC "Combo" loader system.
"Most of the cars listed had auto racks, some had end doors,
and a few had both."
The percentage of auto cars equipped with end doors and
loaders was historically quite small; generally less than 10% of the
total. The mechanics of the installation of the cable hoist
assembly on the "A" end (door) and the racking of the car end with doors
(especially when loaded) persuaded many railroads to avoid this
combination.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Alexander Schneider Jr
Thanks to all who responded. As I model NYC in Michigan, it is a detail I need to add to appropriate cars.
I was looking at the NMRA Reprint of the January 1953 ORER.
Alex Schneider
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of guycwilber@...
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:26 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Opening End Door Boxcars
In a message dated 11/21/2013 4:12:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, doug.harding@... writes:
Alex is correct, and referring to BULLETIN 28 issued by the Car Service Division of the AAR beginning in January of 1945 which listed all auto cars equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders or NYC Loaders or cars equipped only with floor tubes used in transporting larger motor vehicles, farm machinery, etc. Printed in all subsequent ORER's as well as issued in pamphlet form from the CSD of the AAR which included additional currently released circulars and service orders regarding the use of auto cars equipped with loaders.
You are referring to a Closed Car Loading Pamphlet which was one of a series of pamphlets issued by the Operating-Transportation Division of the ARA or AAR.
Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada
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spsalso
Alex, If you're modeling in HO, you may not be aware of the P2K end-door 50 double door boxes. I believe they came in road names: Q, GTW, ERIE, LV, SOU, UP. I've got a couple around here somewhere, and wish I had a few more. Ed Edward Sutorik ---In STMFC@..., <aschneiderjr@...> wrote: Thanks to all who responded. As I model NYC in Michigan, it is a detail I need to add to appropriate cars.
I was looking at the NMRA Reprint of the January 1953 ORER.
Alex Schneider
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of guycwilber@...
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:26 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Opening End Door Boxcars
In a message dated 11/21/2013 4:12:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, doug.harding@... writes:
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caboose9792@...
Brad,
I don't know where in the world you are at but IRM (www.irm.org) has both a end door Rock island
boxcar 264070
with no floor tubes and only extra interior fittings was some anchor points
near the roof of the car. Yes, the end door does work. All that
bickering about loading devices was unnecessary as some cars had them some
did not. Also at the museum is an end door baggage car which allowed for
automobiles or other long objects like stage show sets and backgrounds to be
shipped express.
Mark Rickert
In a message dated 11/19/2013 9:45:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,
cereshill@... writes:
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