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Semet Solvay Dome Platform

Mikebrock
 

Well, I would sooner play left offensive tackle for the Broncos without pads than do it again but I have managed to place a few photos in the photo section titled Semet Solvay Tank Car. The photos are of my attempt to model a dome platform on an Intermountain Semet Solvay tank car.

Mike Brock
no1detail@...
 

This sounds like an interesting project.  I have a couple undecorated Intermountain 10,000 gallon tank cars waiting for a use.  I do have a couple questions.  The intermountain car has wood walkways, so is it likely that the platform would be wood as well?  Does any one know if SEMET-SOLVAY had cars with and without platforms?  If any body has a spare factory fresh Intermountain 10,000 gallon Semet-Solvay tank car I'm interested in buying one.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka
Tim O'Connor
 

I don't think Type 27 walkways were wood -- they would have to be steel. Open-grid
steel walkways came later, sometime in the 1950's I think. But platforms could have
wood treads, which were probably less slippery than steel in many conditions.

Tim O'Connor

This sounds like an interesting project. I have a couple undecorated Intermountain 10,000 gallon tank cars waiting for a use. I do have a couple questions. The intermountain car has wood walkways, so is it likely that the platform would be wood as well? Does any one know if SEMET-SOLVAY had cars with and without platforms? If any body has a spare factory fresh Intermountain 10,000 gallon Semet-Solvay tank car I'm interested in buying one.

Thank you
Steven E. Cerka
Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote

I don't think Type 27 walkways were wood -- they would have to be steel. Open-grid steel walkways came later, sometime in the 1950's I think. But platforms could have wood treads, which were probably less slippery than steel in many conditions.

      As late as 1940, numerous photos show new tank cars with wood walkways and wood dome platforms.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Pierre Oliver <pierre.oliver@...>
 

All this dialogue on the Semet-Solvay tank car prompts me to inform all of you that Yarmouth Model Works is working up a cast resin kit with etched metal platform supports. We're probably about a year out on this, given how fast these things evolve.
So plan your modeling activity accordingly.
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 2/11/2014 1:17 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

 
Tim O'Connor wrote

I don't think Type 27 walkways were wood -- they would have to be steel. Open-grid steel walkways came later, sometime in the 1950's I think. But platforms could have wood treads, which were probably less slippery than steel in many conditions.

      As late as 1940, numerous photos show new tank cars with wood walkways and wood dome platforms.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




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Tim O'Connor
 


Ok, I can't really tell that from any photos I have. I'm surprised a 2" thick
plank that was unsupported for a distance of 10 or 12 feet would be strong enough
to hold a 250 lb man walking on it, and holding up for years and years of service.
But if you say so, ok.

Tim O'



Tim O'Connor wrote

I don't think Type 27 walkways were wood -- they would have to be steel. Open-grid steel walkways came later, sometime in the 1950's I think. But platforms could have wood treads, which were probably less slippery than steel in many conditions.
      As late as 1940, numerous photos show new tank cars with wood walkways and wood dome platforms.

Tony Thompson 

Charles Peck
 

Tim, you might be amazed with what can be done with clear, straight
grained, well seasoned full dimension oak and other hardwoods.
That sort of lumber is difficult to find today.
Chuck Peck



On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:44 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
 


Ok, I can't really tell that from any photos I have. I'm surprised a 2" thick
plank that was unsupported for a distance of 10 or 12 feet would be strong enough
to hold a 250 lb man walking on it, and holding up for years and years of service.
But if you say so, ok.

Tim O'



Tim O'Connor wrote

I don't think Type 27 walkways were wood -- they would have to be steel. Open-grid steel walkways came later, sometime in the 1950's I think. But platforms could have wood treads, which were probably less slippery than steel in many conditions.
      As late as 1940, numerous photos show new tank cars with wood walkways and wood dome platforms.

Tony Thompson 


Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Ok, I can't really tell that from any photos I have. I'm surprised a 2" thick plank that was unsupported for a distance of 10 or 12 feet would be strong enough to hold a 250 lb man walking on it, and holding up for years and years of service.
But if you say so, ok.

       I invite you to inspect the tank car drawings in the back of Kaminski's _AC&F Tank Cars_ book. Walks are clearly wood, called out as 1-3/4-inch minimum thickness. 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Mikebrock
 

Guys,
Before I take this thread off line to keep peace in the "family" I think that there MIGHT be usefulness from this discussion IF we can do it calmly.

Note that Kaminski states on pg 241 that "By the late 1940's, the early wood running boards and side platforms were being replaced in new car construction with steel grid types."

The drawings do, indeed, show both wood [ IMO ] running boards on pgs 222, 227 and 228 and references to AAR approved steel grating on others. Note on pg 231 the reference to "Apex Tri-Lox Grating" for the dome platform dated 1941. However, Since I started this thread regarding the Semet Solvay dome platform, I will move it back to that subject and submit again that the platform for the Semet Solvay cars, apparently built in 1939 and 1940 did NOT have see through grates. Were they wood or solid steel I don't know. The shadow produced by the platform on the tank is evidence enough for me that they were not see though grates...as can be seen on many other cars via their shadow patterns.

I will note also that author Kaminski doesn't get particularly good marks either. When I asked him his opinion on this subject back around 2003, he said, buy the book. Which I did.

Which, of course, brings to mind the story of famed golfers Ben Hogan and Gary Player. Hogan had, at the time, owned a golf club manufacturing business which not surprisingly made Hogan clubs. Player, realizing that Hogan was the premier player at the time, called Hogan to ask his opinion about some part of the golf swing. Hogan interrupted Player to ask him what clubs he used. When Player replied, "Spaulding", Hogan answered, "Ask Spaulding" and hung up.

Mike Brock
caboose9792@aol.com <caboose9792@...>
 

Given there are sevral tankcars in museums with wood runingbords about two inches thick, one need not imagine, insted get out of the basment and see the real thing in person.

mark rickert
Sent with Verizon Mobile Email

---Original Message---
From: STMFC@...
Sent: 2/11/2014 8:27 pm
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Semet Solvay Dome Platform

Tim, you might be amazed with what can be done with clear, straightgrained, well seasoned full dimension oak and other hardwoods.That sort of lumber is difficult to find today.Chuck PeckOn Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:44 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>wrote:>>>> Ok, I can't really tell that from any photos I have. I'm surprised a 2"> thick> plank that was unsupported for a distance of 10 or 12 feet would be strong> enough> to hold a 250 lb man walking on it, and holding up for years and years of> service.> But if you say so, ok.>> Tim O'>>>> Tim O'Connor wrote>>> I don't think Type 27 walkways were wood -- they would have to be steel.> Open-grid steel walkways came later, sometime in the 1950's I think. But> platforms could have wood treads, which were probably less slippery than> steel in many conditions.>> As late as 1940, numerous photos show new tank cars with wood> walkways and wood dome platforms.>> Tony Thompson>> >
Bill Welch
 

Having used ACF drawings to guide the making of the wood planked pattern for an impending Semet-Solvay kit to model these cars, I can testify that the dome platform on those cars had wood decks.


Bill Welch
Tim O'Connor
 

Doh, gee, Mark, when I go out, all I see are steel running boards. So I guess
they were always steel. (Using your logic.)

I never said wood was NEVER used. The question was WHEN wood was replaced with
steel. Safety requirements change. Steel was MANDATED for new box car and reefer
running boards in the 1940's for example. I really have no good photos of tank
car running boards (not platforms) of cars built in the 1940's, and some 1940's
drawings do call out AAR steel running boards. But Tony is right, the Type 27
must have had wood running boards in 1927, and for some time afterwards.

As for drawings of cross sections showing "grain" ... As someone who once had a
job drafting engineering drawings for Trident submarines, I can tell you that a
piece of steel shown in cross section often received diagonal stripes simply to
indicate that you were looking at something that was solid, and not a rectangular
tube.

As for APEX running boards being 1" thick -- Yes, they were, on BOX CARS. It says
so right there in the CBC drawings. Other thicknesses existed for other applications.
On box cars the unsupported span was 41".

Some tank car platforms were treadplate steel. I thought it was possible that this
was used for running boards. But as I said, good running board photos of 1940's tank
cars are really hard to find.

Tim O'Connor

Given there are sevral tankcars in museums with wood runingbords about two inches thick, one need not imagine, insted get out of the basment and see the real thing in person.

mark rickert

---Original Message---
From: STMFC@...
Sent: 2/11/2014 8:27 pm
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Semet Solvay Dome Platform

Tim, you might be amazed with what can be done with clear, straight
grained, well seasoned full dimension oak and other hardwoods.
That sort of lumber is difficult to find today.
Chuck Peck
Mikebrock
 

Bill Welch writes:


"Having used ACF drawings to guide the making of the wood planked pattern for an impending Semet-Solvay kit to model these cars, I can testify that the dome platform on those cars had wood decks."

Well, I'm delighted to find out that someone knows what's going on...at least with regard to the dome platform on the Semet Solvay car. With that in mind, I rushed to the railroad room and finally found my Semet Solvay car resting unattended on a siding at Bruceford. With excitement building, hands trembling, I moved an intense light source over to view the car. Alas, consider my disappointment when I discovered that the morons that had recently filled the tank had spilled something all over the platform. Whatever that stuff was, it had completely filled any gaps in between any wood planks. I thought about scraping it a bit to see if it was metal but a car drove up to the siding with a sign saying "Prototype Police" on its side and two men got out and approached the car. I quickly left the area. The last I saw of the car was it disappearing into a cut on its way to Laramie.

Mike Brock
Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 12, 2014, at 7:12 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

I never said wood was NEVER used. The question was WHEN wood was replaced with
steel. Safety requirements change. Steel was MANDATED for new box car and reefer
running boards in the 1940's for example. I really have no good photos of tank
car running boards (not platforms) of cars built in the 1940's, and some 1940's
drawings do call out AAR steel running boards. But Tony is right, the Type 27
must have had wood running boards in 1927, and for some time afterwards.

As for drawings of cross sections showing "grain" ... As someone who once had a
job drafting engineering drawings for Trident submarines, I can tell you that a
piece of steel shown in cross section often received diagonal stripes simply to
indicate that you were looking at something that was solid, and not a rectangular
tube.
Tim,
The following data was compiled from ACF bills of materials (BOM) covering cars built from 1931 to mid-1952 and available for review at the St. Louis Mercantile Library. Other data comes from some ACF drawings that apply to application of steel running boards.

The latest build date on a new ACF tank car delivered with wood running boards & dome platforms was 9-47 (lots 3118 and 3119). As was indicated in a previous message the wood thickness was a minimum of 11 3/4", but the thickness was often specified as 11 7/8" in the BOM. The majority of Type 27 tank cars built from the late-1920s to the immediate postwar period came with wood running boards & dome platforms, but steel was occasionally used.

The earliest application I have documented for any type of steel running boards was in March 1934 in which Allen Wood Diamond Plate (AWDP) was used on an order for DUPX (lot 1323). AWDP was used on a very limited number of cars (18) from 1934 to 1937 on 10 orders. In these cases the dome platforms were sometimes AWPD, sometimes wood, and in 3 cases subway grating.

From 1938 to 1947, more than 1,100 Type 27 tank cars received Allen Wood Super Diamond Plate (AWSDP) running boards and/or dome platforms on 31 orders. A few of these cars used wood dome platforms (6,000-gallon chlorine cars for SACX or PPGX). Three orders of USOX cars used Carnegie steel plate for the dome platforms. The latest applications of AWSDP running boards on an ACF tank car was CDLX 774-793, built 10-47 (lot 3050), and SHPX 3635-3699, built 9-47 (lot 3106).

Regarding the various types of open steel-grid running boards, Morton, Blaw-Knox, and Apex Tri-lok were all used on ACF Type 27 tank cars. Morton was used on just 2 orders for LSBX/LSPX (lots 2231, 2585) in 1941 and 1943, respectively.

Blaw-Knox (B-K) was first used on an ACF Type 27 tank car in 1941, RPCX 111-115, built 6-41 (lot 2220). The B-K running boards & dome platforms were not used for about 6 years until May 1947, at which time it was used more commonly through 1952.

Apex Tri-lok was used by RTCX as early as 4-41 (lot 2187). Apex was sporadically used on ACF tank cars built in 1942 to 1947 with approximately 1,500 Type 27 tank cars built during this period when wood was also being used.

Beginning in 9-47, all ACF tank cars (regardless of being called "Type 27" or not) received steel running boards and dome platforms. From all information I have seen, Apex and Blaw-Knox were the two types used starting in 10-47. Three ACF drawings that each apply to numerous lot numbers (dated 11-23-46, 10-28-48 and 11-22-49) indicate a 2" thickness for Apex running boards and 2 3/8" thickness for B-K.

A general comment about "Type 27" tank cars is that after World War II the term became somewhat nebulous and was inconsistently used by ACF in their lot number list and bill of materials documents. From 1946 to 1950, ACF tank car designs were in process of changing the dimensions of the underframe & tanks as well as a transition to welded underframes. The latest ACF cars specifying "Type 27" in the lot number list are lots 3392 (10 cars built 4-49) and lot 3409 (1 car built 10-48), however, a number of bills of materials after this continued to specify cars as Type 27 through lot 3485 (cars built 10-50). Anyhow, I hope this information helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks, Ed! Excellent hard data information! It would be wonderful to have
all that compiled into a spreadsheet like you did for some types of box cars.
If you could use any help with that let me know, I'm available.

Tim O'Connor

Tim,
The following data was compiled from ACF bills of materials (BOM) covering cars built from 1931 to mid-1952 and available for review at the St. Louis Mercantile Library. Other data comes from some ACF drawings that apply to application of steel running boards.

The latest build date on a new ACF tank car delivered with wood running boards & dome platforms was 9-47 (lots 3118 and 3119). As was indicated in a previous message the wood thickness was a minimum of 11 3/4", but the thickness was often specified as 11 7/8" in the BOM. The majority of Type 27 tank cars built from the late-1920s to the immediate postwar period came with wood running boards & dome platforms, but steel was occasionally used.

The earliest application I have documented for any type of steel running boards was in March 1934 in which Allen Wood Diamond Plate (AWDP) was used on an order for DUPX (lot 1323). AWDP was used on a very limited number of cars (18) from 1934 to 1937 on 10 orders. In these cases the dome platforms were sometimes AWPD, sometimes wood, and in 3 cases subway grating.

From 1938 to 1947, more than 1,100 Type 27 tank cars received Allen Wood Super Diamond Plate (AWSDP) running boards and/or dome platforms on 31 orders. A few of these cars used wood dome platforms (6,000-gallon chlorine cars for SACX or PPGX). Three orders of USOX cars used Carnegie steel plate for the dome platforms. The latest applications of AWSDP running boards on an ACF tank car was CDLX 774-793, built 10-47 (lot 3050), and SHPX 3635-3699, built 9-47 (lot 3106).

Regarding the various types of open steel-grid running boards, Morton, Blaw-Knox, and Apex Tri-lok were all used on ACF Type 27 tank cars. Morton was used on just 2 orders for LSBX/LSPX (lots 2231, 2585) in 1941 and 1943, respectively.

Blaw-Knox (B-K) was first used on an ACF Type 27 tank car in 1941, RPCX 111-115, built 6-41 (lot 2220). The B-K running boards & dome platforms were not used for about 6 years until May 1947, at which time it was used more commonly through 1952.

Apex Tri-lok was used by RTCX as early as 4-41 (lot 2187). Apex was sporadically used on ACF tank cars built in 1942 to 1947 with approximately 1,500 Type 27 tank cars built during this period when wood was also being used.

Beginning in 9-47, all ACF tank cars (regardless of being called "Type 27" or not) received steel running boards and dome platforms. From all information I have seen, Apex and Blaw-Knox were the two types used starting in 10-47. Three ACF drawings that each apply to numerous lot numbers (dated 11-23-46, 10-28-48 and 11-22-49) indicate a 2" thickness for Apex running boards and 2 3/8" thickness for B-K.

A general comment about "Type 27" tank cars is that after World War II the term became somewhat nebulous and was inconsistently used by ACF in their lot number list and bill of materials documents. From 1946 to 1950, ACF tank car designs were in process of changing the dimensions of the underframe & tanks as well as a transition to welded underframes. The latest ACF cars specifying "Type 27" in the lot number list are lots 3392 (10 cars built 4-49) and lot 3409 (1 car built 10-48), however, a number of bills of materials after this continued to specify cars as Type 27 through lot 3485 (cars built 10-50). Anyhow, I hope this information helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Tom Fedor
 

Mike,
What was hauled in these tanks?
Wikipedia has the following on Semet-Solvay:
The Hazard family invested in an affiliated business, the Semet-Solvay Company, formed in 1895. Louis Semet, a relative of Ernest and Alfred Solvay, had developed with the brothers a coke oven designed to recover valuable materials formerly wasted in the coking process. In 1892 the Solvay Process Company built the first of the ovens in America, forming the Semet-Solvay Company three years later to build and operate them. Coke plants were located in Ashland, Kentucky; Buffalo, New York; Detroit, Michigan; and Ironton, Ohio. Semet-Solvay operated its own mines in West Virginia, providing much of its coal supply.

-Tom Fedor, Thurmont, MD
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