Sunshine resale values..Now tools


Dennis Williams
 

   One thing we all forgot.  Tools.  I would be willing to bet that Pierre has some tooling that even I wish I had and the same with him.  This is the biggest part in our line of work.  Ever try doing 30 cars with a pin vise??  I did for 2 years til I bought a Foredom.   4 pin vises with a certain drill size in each, 2 different wire cutters, 3 tweesers, 3 different thicknesses of ACC.  I started investing in tooling back in the early 80s while working on  brass for Diesel Consignment.  Yes,  I still do brass. 

   So remember, when you go to a show, check out the tools and see what is there.  You never know.  I ran into a guy that said he had 2 "goofy looking" drills and he wanted $125  for both.  Turned out to be a Sherline Mill and Lathe.  He also had ALL the tooling for the mill but not the lathe.  I offered more for the pieces, but he said a deal is a deal.  3 months later he called and said he found more parts.  Turned out to be all the tools for the lathe plus 25lbs of alum. blanks,  Again I offered money and he said" what would I do with them".  

   Another place to look for deals, yard and estate  sales.  Someone I know  a few miles from here found 20 pieces of brass at a yard sale. He offered a thousand and got them.  Lucky him!!  I bought 2 C&Os off him for $350 each.  Big profit!  You Never know what you can find.

 

Happy looking.

Dennis Williams


Jack Burgess
 

When I started writing magazine articles in the mid-1970s, I also "pledged" to spend the payments on tools. So, it was about 1977 or so that I purchased a Cameron micro-drill press. Made in America. It is unbelievable accurate...I can drill #97 holes with it without a problem.

When I bought mine, it cost $175 as I recall, which was a lot of money. Now it costs just over $1,000 but is still American-made. It is a joy to use. I can't imagine drilling 50-60 holes for grab irons for a single box car with a pin vise...

Jack Burgess


Dennis Williams
 

Jack.

  Trust me, it took a long time with a pin vise.  With the Foredom, I can do 25 cars in just over 30 minutes.  I know it is hard to believe but I timed it once.  Have to keep the RPMs high to keep the bit from walking.  This also keeps them from breaking. Why not a Dremel??   Too big and not enough control.    Dennis  


gary laakso
 

Dennis, which model of the many from Foredom are you using? 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine resale values..Now tools
 
 

Jack.

  Trust me, it took a long time with a pin vise.  With the Foredom, I can do 25 cars in just over 30 minutes.  I know it is hard to believe but I timed it once.  Have to keep the RPMs high to keep the bit from walking.  This also keeps them from breaking. Why not a Dremel??   Too big and not enough control.    Dennis 




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Dennis Williams
 

Sreies CC,  Jewelers drill. Simular to the Dremel with cablebut MUCH better.  Even holds #80 dril bit.
 
Dennis Williams/Owner


On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 6:44 PM, gary laakso wrote:
 
Dennis, which model of the many from Foredom are you using? 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine resale values..Now tools
 
 
Jack.
  Trust me, it took a long time with a pin vise.  With the Foredom, I can do 25 cars in just over 30 minutes.  I know it is hard to believe but I timed it once.  Have to keep the RPMs high to keep the bit from walking.  This also keeps them from breaking. Why not a Dremel??   Too big and not enough control.    Dennis 


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Anspach Denny <danspachmd@...>
 

I will echo Jack Burgess’s comments on the advantages of precision drilling. Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling.   (I shudder, brace up,  and take a deep draft before tackling any one  of my stash of un-grabbed Walthers cars).

However, the comments about drill speed are confusing. Doing this in styrene is hazardous, only less so in resin. It CAN be done is one is disciplined to get in and back out fast. But, slower speeds have been better in my hands.  Although I use a MicroMark drill press for most common things, I also have a 12 volt super- precision drill press made by a machinist in Alabama  (Braxton??-  memory infarct)  (who also taught and played violin before his death about ten years ago). He preached a mantra of *slow *drilling with these tiny drills.

Well, intuitively I would guess that high speed might have some considerable value in metals, but all?  What types of lubrication might tip the scales one way or another?

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Jack Burgess
 

A chat list member who is also modeling the YVRR (yes, there is more than one) e-mailed me off-list with the same general question regarding drilling speeds. The slowest that my drill press runs based just on the belt setting is 9500 RPM. Therefore, I have an old Dremel "Solid State" rheostat that I use (you can tell it is old when the manufacturer advertises it as "Solid State"!) I keep it very slow for styrene (enough to drill a hole, the smaller the bit, the slower the speed) so that the styrene won't melt. I use a moderate speed for resin and wood. I never run it at 7500 RPM even when drilling metal...if I'm getting chips coming out of the hole, I feel that I running it at a reasonable speed...I never add an lubrication since I don't know what to use and that would one more thing to clean up. List members such as Dennis, Brian, and others could add some real knowledge here...I was a civil engineer in my prior life and have never taken any kind of machining class.

 

(At the highest belt "setting", my drill press runs at 30,000 RPM...I have no idea what one would drill at that speed but the drill press was designed for electronics R&D shops, jewelers, physics labs, etc. This list certainly doesn't include model railroaders.)

 

I use carbide drill bits in sizes 71-80 for a lot of things including styrene, resin, and especially brass. Wire drill bits tend to wander and "draw circles", especially on brass but the carbide ones don't. But they are also very brittle and can't take any side pressure. So, in situations where I'm drilling a deep hole, I'll start the hole with a carbide drill bit and finish up with a wire drill bit. I get all of my drill bits from Drill Bit City.

 

Jack Burgess

 

 

I will echo Jack Burgess’s comments on the advantages of precision drilling. Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling.   (I shudder, brace up,  and take a deep draft before tackling any one  of my stash of un-grabbed Walthers cars).

 

However, the comments about drill speed are confusing. Doing this in styrene is hazardous, only less so in resin. It CAN be done is one is disciplined to get in and back out fast. But, slower speeds have been better in my hands.  Although I use a MicroMark drill press for most common things, I also have a 12 volt super- precision drill press made by a machinist in Alabama  (Braxton??-  memory infarct)  (who also taught and played violin before his death about ten years ago). He preached a mantra of *slow *drilling with these tiny drills.

 

Well, intuitively I would guess that high speed might have some considerable value in metals, but all?  What types of lubrication might tip the scales one way or another?

 

Denny

 

Denny S. Anspach MD

Sacramento

 

 

 

 





Tim O'Connor
 

Denny it's been my experience that higher RPM's (and SHARP drills)
in plastic work very well with a drill press, because you can do a
quick down-and-up move and there is no time for the material to heat
up and melt onto the drill. You can drill with very low RPM's and
that will prevent heating (because the heat disappates), but it will
also take a lot longer to make holes.

Tim O'Connor

I will echo Jack Burgess�s comments on the advantages of precision drilling. Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling. (I shudder, brace up, and take a deep draft before tackling any one of my stash of un-grabbed Walthers cars).

However, the comments about drill speed are confusing. Doing this in styrene is hazardous, only less so in resin. It CAN be done is one is disciplined to get in and back out fast. But, slower speeds have been better in my hands. Although I use a MicroMark drill press for most common things, I also have a 12 volt super- precision drill press made by a machinist in Alabama (Braxton??- memory infarct) (who also taught and played violin before his death about ten years ago). He preached a mantra of *slow *drilling with these tiny drills.

Well, intuitively I would guess that high speed might have some considerable value in metals, but all? What types of lubrication might tip the scales one way or another?

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Steve SANDIFER
 

The wandering drill bit is a problem. As with large sizes, a dimple to start the hole works to get the hole where you want it.
 
I use an "off/on" Dremel (not variable speed) hooked to a sewing machine variable speed foot pedal to get slow speeds for drilling in plastic. I have a Rockwell milling machine for other precision type work, but that is overkill for most modeling.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine resale values..Now tools

 

I will echo Jack Burgess’s comments on the advantages of precision drilling. Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling.   (I shudder, brace up,  and take a deep draft before tackling any one  of my stash of un-grabbed Walthers cars).


However, the comments about drill speed are confusing. Doing this in styrene is hazardous, only less so in resin. It CAN be done is one is disciplined to get in and back out fast. But, slower speeds have been better in my hands.  Although I use a MicroMark drill press for most common things, I also have a 12 volt super- precision drill press made by a machinist in Alabama  (Braxton??-  memory infarct)  (who also taught and played violin before his death about ten years ago). He preached a mantra of *slow *drilling with these tiny drills.

Well, intuitively I would guess that high speed might have some considerable value in metals, but all?  What types of lubrication might tip the scales one way or another?

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Richard Townsend
 

I will echo what others have said about the delights of precision miniature drill presses.  For a long time I was intending to build one following a Ben King article from a old Model Railroader.  I suspect that the Brazelton drill press was based on Mr. King's article.  By the time I decided I would never get around to building one and that I should just knuckle down and buy a Brazelton, he was out of business.  I saved my pennies and ended up buying a Cameron drill press.  Many, many pennies.  But it was worth it.  When I first got it I tried it out and was disappointed to learn that even at its slowest speed with a quick in and out I was melting plastic onto the drill bits.  Jack Burgess was kind enough to advise me to buy one of the Dremel "Solid State" speed controls, and even pointed one out on eBay.  I bought one and have been happy as can be ever since.  Pin vise drilling grab iron poles was pure, frustrating, broken-bit drudgery; drilling them with the drill press is a pleasure.
 
Now I'm saving my pennies for a precision miniature table saw.
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Anspach Denny
To: Era Freight Car List Steam
Sent: Wed, Mar 5, 2014 5:37 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine resale values..Now tools

 
I will echo Jack Burgess’s comments on the advantages of precision drilling. Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling.   (I shudder, brace up,  and take a deep draft before tackling any one  of my stash of un-grabbed Walthers cars).

However, the comments about drill speed are confusing. Doing this in styrene is hazardous, only less so in resin. It CAN be done is one is disciplined to get in and back out fast. But, slower speeds have been better in my hands.  Although I use a MicroMark drill press for most common things, I also have a 12 volt super- precision drill press made by a machinist in Alabama  (Braxton??-  memory infarct)  (who also taught and played violin before his death about ten years ago). He preached a mantra of *slow *drilling with these tiny drills.

Well, intuitively I would guess that high speed might have some considerable value in metals, but all?  What types of lubrication might tip the scales one way or another?

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

I've had a lot of experience drilling aluminum, and very slow speed and a very sharp bit
works best. A medium weight oil reduces heat. At the proper speed, the shavings will curl in a spiral. If you get small chips, you're drilling to fast. Avoid excessive pressure, and let the bit do the work. Other metals have different properties, requiring different techniques. Maybe a machinist out there will write an article on drilling various metals we use in the hobby.

I find the same approach sans oil works for resin when using a pin vise. CB&Q single sheathed cars have grab iron ladders, and I've drilled several thousand holes using a pin vise and a #79 bit. I use a sharp needle to make a pilot hole, and I have much better control of hole placement then I do with a drill press, mostly because I use an Optivisor when drilling. I use my drill press at medium speed for #50 holes to tap for trucks and couplers and for other less critical purposes. The curl tells me when the speed is right. Drilling resin at high speed will melt it into the bit, and you will have to use laquer thinner to clean the bit. I make far fewer drilling errors with a pin vise, and the time differential for me is insignificant.

Nelson Moyer

On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:16 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> wrote:


Denny it's been my experience that higher RPM's (and SHARP drills)
in plastic work very well with a drill press, because you can do a
quick down-and-up move and there is no time for the material to heat
up and melt onto the drill. You can drill with very low RPM's and
that will prevent heating (because the heat disappates), but it will
also take a lot longer to make holes.

Tim O'Connor



I will echo Jack Burgess�s comments on the advantages of precision drilling. Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling. (I shudder, brace up, and take a deep draft before tackling any one of my stash of un-grabbed Walthers cars).

However, the comments about drill speed are confusing. Doing this in styrene is hazardous, only less so in resin. It CAN be done is one is disciplined to get in and back out fast. But, slower speeds have been better in my hands. Although I use a MicroMark drill press for most common things, I also have a 12 volt super- precision drill press made by a machinist in Alabama (Braxton??- memory infarct) (who also taught and played violin before his death about ten years ago). He preached a mantra of *slow *drilling with these tiny drills.

Well, intuitively I would guess that high speed might have some considerable value in metals, but all? What types of lubrication might tip the scales one way or another?

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



Ned Carey
 

Denny Wrote: Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling. 
 
I've recently been working though my supply of resin kits. I am loving building these things.
 
One thing that has helped a lot is having the "Magic Drill Bits".  I bought some Guhring drill bits from MSC. I have been using one, a thousandth smaller than a #80 (.0125" vs. .0135").  I have used it both in my small battery dremel and in a pin vise.  As often as not I just spin it in my hand!!!   It has a larger shaft (2MM?) I can turn it with my hand and it easily fits in any drill or pin vise.
 
These are sharp. They drill cleanly and noticeably better than the #78-80 cheap ones I bought in 6 packs. They are more expensive and you need to buy them in packs of 10. Despite being smaller they have significantly outlasted my #80 bits by 5X.  These bits are a joy to use.  
 
I will definitely be ordering these in more sizes.
 
Ned Carey


Ned Carey
 

I can't imagine drilling 50-60 holes for grab irons for a single box car with a pin vise...
 
Jack,
 
How do you hold a boxcar to drill grab holes?  How do you line up the holes?
 
Ned Carey


WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Ned:

Can you suppy a source fpor Magic Drill Bits?  I am not familiar with MSC.
Thanks:

Bill Pardie

On Mar 6, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Ned Carey wrote:

 

Denny Wrote: Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling. 
 
I've recently been working though my supply of resin kits. I am loving building these things.
 
One thing that has helped a lot is having the "Magic Drill Bits".  I bought some Guhring drill bits from MSC. I have been using one, a thousandth smaller than a #80 (.0125" vs. .0135").  I have used it both in my small battery dremel and in a pin vise.  As often as not I just spin it in my hand!!!   It has a larger shaft (2MM?) I can turn it with my hand and it easily fits in any drill or pin vise.
 
These are sharp. They drill cleanly and noticeably better than the #78-80 cheap ones I bought in 6 packs. They are more expensive and you need to buy them in packs of 10. Despite being smaller they have significantly outlasted my #80 bits by 5X.  These bits are a joy to use.  
 
I will definitely be ordering these in more sizes.
 
Ned Carey



Douglas Harding
 

Quick Google search shows http://www.mscdirect.com/industrialtools/guhring-steel-drill-bits.html

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Pierre Oliver <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Ned,
Given that there are over 1000 options in the MSC catalogue just for Guhring, could you share a part number with us?
Thanks
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 3/6/2014 2:07 PM, Ned Carey wrote:

�

Denny Wrote: Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling.�
�
I've recently been working though my supply of resin kits. I am loving building these things.
�
One thing that has helped a lot is having the "Magic Drill Bits".� I bought some Guhring drill bits from MSC. I have been using one, a�thousandth smaller�than a #80 (.0125" vs. .0135").� I have used it both in my small�battery dremel and in a pin vise.� As often as not I just spin it in my hand!!!� �It has a larger shaft (2MM?) I can turn it with my hand and it easily fits in any drill or pin vise.
�
These are sharp. They drill cleanly and noticeably better than the #78-80 cheap ones I bought in 6 packs. They are more expensive and you need to buy them in packs of 10.�Despite being smaller they have significantly outlasted my #80 bits by 5X.� These bits are a joy to use. �
�
I will definitely be ordering these in more sizes.
�
Ned Carey

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Ned Carey
 

RE:  Guhring dril bits
 
I got mine from MSC industrial supply co. Their paper catalogue is about 5" think. It is difficult to find exactly what you want on their online site. In my previous post I called them Magic Drill Bits. That was my own description you won't find them looking for that.
 
Guhring
Made in Germany
Series 301 Cobalt, oversize shank, bright finish micro drill
Series 660 same but Tin coated at about double the price.
 
Also MSC carries the Titex brand which is similar at a similar cost.  All of both brands have a 1 MM shaft up to about a #68 then they switch to a 1.5 MM shaft. No more slipping of tiny drills in a pin vise or chuck.
 
 
Jack Burgess mentioned drilling with #97 drills. The MSC catalog has 10 sizes smaller than that down to .002".  The one I used was .0122. Part number 85778785 series 301
#80 is 85778876
#79 is 85778967
 
For those of you who are really anal they have two sizes between #80 and #79
 
Here is a direct link to the #80  @ $7.94 ea
 
Ned Carey


pburr47@...
 

Pierre, here are the four 0.0126 drill bits by Guhring. Notice that one of the choices has a 3mm diameter shank and can be bought individually rather than in lots of ten. Incidentally, this is the only one ranked as material grade K40, whatever that means. At $16.18 each, they are, of course the most expensive; then again, that's $16.18 instead of a minimum $79.40 for ten of the least expensive ones. BTW, all of the others have 1mm shanks.

http://www.mscdirect.com/ browse/tn/Holemaking/Drilling- Drill-Bits/Metalworking- Multipurpose-Drill-Bits/Micro- Drill-Bits?navid=12106217+ 4294936933+4288196978

Peter Burr


Jack Burgess
 

Some pattern markers have the location of the grab iron holes already marked with a dimple while others don't. Even if they aren't marked, it is easy to still drill them accurately. I wear a pair of 5X Optivisors with lots of light on the drill press table when drilling these holes. With the drill press turned on at a reasonable speed, I simply move the part into general position with my left hand and then move it where it needs to be as I lower the drill bit with my right hand to within 1/16" of the surface of the part. I usually have the part at about a 45 degree angle to the front edge of the drill press table so that I can make sure that the hole is vertically in line with the NBW and also directly under it. As I lower the drill bit, I make sure that the drill bit is nearly touching the NBW. When you get close enough, it is easy to "compare" the diameter of the drill bit to the NBW to end up in the correct location.

 

With flat kits, I drill all of the holes before I start assembling the "box". But drilling hole on kits with a built-up body isn't much harder. It is a little more difficult drilling out grab iron holes in the ends of built-up bodies but I just swivel the drill press table out of the way and hold the car vertically with my arm or something resting on the table.

 

Jack Burgess

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Ned Carey
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:13 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine resale values..Now tools

 




I can't imagine drilling 50-60 holes for grab irons for a single box car with a pin vise...

 

Jack,

 

How do you hold a boxcar to drill grab holes?  How do you line up the holes?

 

Ned Carey





Jared Harper
 

Joyful modeling?  Is there such a thing?  I never built a model in my life where I felt joyful.  For me any joyfulness comes when I am finished and I say to myself, "A ha, done at last."  For me the building is just the means to a finished product.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


---In STMFC@..., <nedcarey@...> wrote :

Denny Wrote: Pin vise drilling for handrails is more akin to trudging through deep sand than it is to joyful modeling.