sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47


Allen Rueter
 

As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


Robert kirkham
 

Allen – I’d dearly love to see the car numbers of the CP cars in that sample.   As a modeller I had written off the sub 40 footers for all but MOW and other OCS service for my 1946 era, so this comes as cool news.
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47
 


As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


riverman_vt@...
 

Hi Rob,
  
     While I cannot offer car numbers it can be stated that some 36 ft. CPR Dominion box cars were still 
seen on the Lyndonville (Vt.) Subdivision in the post WW II era as well. The same can be said of the CNR
Dominion cars that were coming down the Central Vermont. By 1970, when I began taking photos in earnest, they were a very rare sight but were seen once in a great while, the last being a Grand Trunk car at White 
River Jct., VT about that time.
Cordially, Don Valentine


devansprr
 

Rob,
This is not unexpected. 1946 would be a tough year to project cars in use, but in the January 1943 ORER NMRA reproduced, around 135,000 sub-40 foot boxcars were on the register. Now 62,000 of those cars were CP and CN, and we have had lots of discussions about how often and how far south into the US these cars would reach - but I would guess about 95% of the US is north of Port Arthur, Texas....
I will confess that when I did this analysis about 9 years ago just after returning to the hobby I failed to distinguish between XM and other X variants, so these numbers are not just for XM's. But ignoring CP, CN and the Mexican roads, the US sub-40 foot box car fleet outnumbered the US 50 foot box car fleet 70841 to 47936 (9.5% and 6.4% respectively of the combined X fleet - a total of ~743,000 cars)
Below, as of January 1943, are US RR's with significant sub-40 foot fleets, percentage of their total X* fleet, and the number of 50 foot box cars they also owned (note that I am sure these numbers are not exact - I didn't count each RR's cars exactly):
SOU      13678  43%   200
L&N         7753  52%   397
NYNH&H 7016  88%       0 (NYNH only had 1000 40' cars in 1943!)
ATSF       3448  10%  3611
RDG        3063  40%   309
NC&Stl    3047  76%       0
NYC        2904    6%  2699
CB&Q     2508   10% 2271
Erie         2336  20%   497
DL&W     1943  25%       0
D&H        1811  72%       0
C&O        1806  14%   200
GTW        1672  19% 1079
MP           1637    9% 1296
MSP...      1364   13%  998   (SOO)
BAR         1325   55%     0
B&A         1217
   55%     0
P&LE       1191   24%  200
NYC&Stl  1091   14%  200   (NKP)
StLSF      1084     8%  300
GM&O     1051   26%      0
D&RGW    795   16%  485
MC            697   17%      0
CI&L         615    58%     0 (Monon)
CofNJ       552    18%     0
CV            412    34%     0
The 26 US railroads listed above had a total of 300,000 box cars (40% of the US fleet)! 66,000 sub-40 cars (over 20%), 220,000 40 footers (so that is one sub-40 footer for every 3.3 40 footers!), and only 14,500 50 footers (four sub-40 footers for every 50 footer!). Of these railroads only the ATSF had more 50 foot cars than sub-40 footers. When building a WWII fleet, clearly the sub-40 cars need to be broadly and significantly represented. And this is without any of the Canadian 36' cars.

The remaining sub-40 cars total 4485 and were spread across at least 53 different reporting marks (getting into the secondary roads).

So in WWII I guess I would disagree with the characterization that the sub-40 footers were often secondary roads. But I suspect the sub-40's that survived the end of WWII quickly found themselves on the secondary roads - not only were they short in length, but they were typically narrow and short in height -  just over half the cubic capacity of 50 foot cars being produced at the end of 1945. The sub-40's weren't long for continued use by the major carriers - and most didn't survive at all - post-war the majors began selling off their 1920's steel 40 footers to the secondary roads as the majors headed for higher cube 40 and 50 footers.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Allen – I’d dearly love to see the car numbers of the CP cars in that sample.   As a modeller I had written off the sub 40 footers for all but MOW and other OCS service for my 1946 era, so this comes as cool news.
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47
 


As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


David Sieber
 

Gentlemen,
 
     May I remind you of Ray Breyer's outstanding and comprehensive spreadsheet in the STMFC files, All Short Boxcars, 1930-1959 (Ray Breyer).xls . It details 1,382(!) series of short boxcars by roadname, reporting marks and road numbers, with outside dimensions, cuft and CAPY, plus ORER totals for each series in 1930, 1945, 1950, 1951, 1955, 1957 and 1959. It also includes spreadsheets on total quantities of all boxcars by roadname for each of those years, and on HO kits that could be used to model short boxcars still in use post WWII, with the year last in service. That hopefully should answer many questions on short boxcars; it certainly gave me a couple of hours of study to see what 36-38 footers might still be seen in my Transition modeling era!
 
HTH, Dave Sieber, Reno NV


devansprr
 

Dave,

OMG - wish I had seen this earlier - great resource...

Dave Evans


Dennis Storzek
 

One thing to keep in mind, aside from the 36' steel frame single sheathed cars that were popular with the Canadian roads, the last built of the 36' double sheathed cars shared construction features with the USRA 40', 40 ton double sheathed cars... That is a wood sheathed, wood framed body on an all steel underframe. In the case of the USRA cars, there were enough of them, and they were close enough to "modern" dimensions, that they spawned a mini-industry manufacturing "kits" to convert them to all-steel boxcars of the same dimensions as the then current (pre-WWII) standard boxcar. Because of their smaller size, the railroads did not see the utility in spending this much money on the 36' cars, even though they were only a couple years older, and those cars soldiered on through WWII with only replacement ends  and roofs, pretty much unchanged in appearance.. Meanwhile a lot of 40' double sheathed cars were masquerading as all-steel cars.

Dennis Storzek


Ray Breyer
 

Gentlemen,
May I remind you of Ray Breyer's outstanding and comprehensive spreadsheet in the STMFC files, All Short Boxcars, 1930-1959 (Ray Breyer).xls .
It details 1,382(!) series of short boxcars by roadname, reporting marks and road numbers, with outside dimensions, cuft and CAPY, plus ORER
totals for each series in 1930, 1945, 1950, 1951, 1955, 1957 and 1959. It also includes spreadsheets on total quantities of all boxcars by roadname
for each of those years, and on HO kits that could be used to model short boxcars still in use post WWII, with the year last in service. That hopefully
should answer many questions on short boxcars; it certainly gave me a couple of hours of study to see what 36-38 footers might still be seen in my
Transition modeling era!
HTH, Dave Sieber, Reno NV



Thanks Dave. It took a lot of time to crunch those numbers, but overall the work was worth it, if for no other reason that the work finally convinced me that I really needed to backdate to the 1920s! (I like wood boxcars)


Since my numbers are already in the STMFC archives and pretty darned obvious, I'll just point out a couple of things:


First off, short boxcars are NOT some "oldeny-timey" affectation, unless you're modeling the sterile and homogenous “1950s to now” period of railroading. When I did my car count I was focusing on showing postwar modelers how they could incorporate a few shorter cars into their fleets, and only did a 1930 count as a courtesy baseline. And at the beginning months of the Great Depression, house cars shorter than 39'10" long were 44% of the North American fleet. By the end of the war the cars were dropping like flies, but still made up 14% of the US and Canadian fleet. It took the K brake ban of 1952 to finally kill off the American short boxcar fleet (it took the Canadian cars until the early 1960s to essentially disappear, although a few hung on through the 1970s).


Next, it was the Great Depression that killed off the short boxcar, not car age. While on this spreadsheet I didn’t look at short boxcars between 1920 and 1940 all that carefully, I have since, at least for the NYC, NKP, IC and a few smaller roads. In 1929 there were loads of short cars running, but by 1933 they were essentially gone. The NYC lost 50,000+ cars between 1930 and 1940, and the NKP removed almost 7,000 cars (half its boxcar fleet) between 1929 and 1939. The cars were all removed simply because of capacity more than anything else; railroads, in an effort to stay solvent, took as much equipment off the books as possible, and learned to make due with far less.


Some truly old cars did stay on railroad rosters for various reasons. In 1930 I counted 17,768 double sheathed boxcars under 36’ OL (which in general make them pre-1905 built cars). And these aren’t Podunk roads that nobody’s ever heard of either: the top five railroads in 1930 with SHORT boxcars are the Soo (5,863), C&NW/CMO (2,257), NYC Lines (1,697), M&StL (1,560) and CNJ (1,499). That 17,768 represents 1.5% of the US boxcar fleet (along with a few random Canadian cars), so according to the Nelson-Gilbert model Depression era modelers SHOULD have a few antiques running around (although, I highly suspect that they really were kept on home rails as much as possible). All of these were killed off by the Depression’s “Great Equipment Purge”, so if you want a REALLY old car running next to a modern 40 foot steel box, you need to model before 1933 or so.


Finally, after 1952, about the only American short boxcars still running in interchange were the ACL and SAL’s fleets of ventilated boxcars, and the small number of NC&StL rebuilt steel cars. So as a good rule of thumb, if you model the late 1950s but want one or two “old timer shorties” running occasionally, choose either a ventilated boxcar or a Canadian/Dominion single sheathed box.


Hope this helps!
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Allen Rueter
 

Rob,
    It was just one,
 1 CP XM 36' 170000-176999

Allen Rueter


Robert kirkham
 

Ah, of course. When I made my comment yesterday I had temporarily forgotten the huge CPR Fowler/Dominion fleet. Was hoping for evidence of CPR double sheathed cars roaming off company lines. But a Fowler car makes perfect sense! Thanks Allen

Rob Kirkham

From: allen_282@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 8:24 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47



Rob,
It was just one,
1 CP XM 36' 170000-176999

Allen Rueter