"Indented" Dreadnaught Ends


Marty McGuirk
 

Can anyone direct me to a photo and/or drawings showing an "indented Dreadnaught" end?

Are the corrugations "in" instead of "out"? Or do the corrugations start further from the side?

Source of question is the flyer listing the Sunshine C&G, Sand Springs, and L&A alternate standard Howe truss cars.

 

TIA,

 

Marty McGuirk


Don Burn
 

Marty,

 

    I believe they are the same at inverted Dreadnaught ends.  The AT&SF BX11 and BX12’s have these also.

 

Don Burn

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Marty McGuirk
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:55 AM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] "Indented" Dreadnaught Ends

 




Can anyone direct me to a photo and/or drawings showing an "indented Dreadnaught" end?

Are the corrugations "in" instead of "out"? Or do the corrugations start further from the side?

Source of question is the flyer listing the Sunshine C&G, Sand Springs, and L&A alternate standard Howe truss cars.

 

TIA,

 

Marty McGuirk





David
 

The "inverse" Dreadnaught was the first one to make an appearance, and it is more or less an "innie" versus the "outie" of the better-known version.

Photo:
http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19349

Drawing:
http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=50904

David Thompson


hayden_tom@...
 

OK, I am quite confused. I have now seen the terms Inverse, Reverse, Inverted, Indented, and Inset Dreadnaught. A few months ago I posted this photo link and noted that I thought this was Inverted Dreadnaught:
Tony Thompson replied that he thought this was simply an "inset" end and not Inverse. 

I am puzzled about what many ( most?) of you see in these differences. In each case clearly there is shaping of the sheet metal that goes IN and OUT . It seems to me that in every dreadnaught Boxcar end, including my atsf link and David's recent link, the "tapered rolling pin" shape bulges outward. I have never seen a Dreadnaught box card end where the tapered rolling pin shape bulges inward. The biggest differences from the norm that I see in both my photo and David's is that in both cases the riveted seam, where upper and lower part are connected, are at the level of the top surface of the tapered rolling pin shapes. And since this rivet seam is at the same surface point as the corner pieces, this means the the top of the tapered rolling pin shape is at the same plane as the corners. Thus the surfaces between the rolling pin shape are below the plane defined by the corner pieces. Is this what you guys are calling "Inverted" or "Inny"? 

By the way, note that on the N&W end in David's photo the rivet seam is in a flat area that seems to be impressed /pressed into the middle of a rolling pin shape, leaving slight bulges above and below the seam. The drawing David linked does not show that but instead shows the riveted area as a flat area slightly below the surface height of the rolling pin bulges. This would make it slightly less an "inny" than the atsf car I show.

Tom Hayden
 


Tony Thompson
 

Can anyone direct me to a photo and/or drawings showing an "indented Dreadnaught" end?

Are the corrugations "in" instead of "out"? Or do the corrugations start further from the side?

      David Thompson provided a link to a nice photo. As you can see there, the indented end is just like a regular end, but the edges of the stamping are flush with the outermost part of the end, instead of being aligned with the inner part. Otherwise the main ribs project above the background, so to speak, just like a regular Dreadnaught. The reverse Dreadnaught, on the other hand (often found on gondolas), has the major ribs projecting into the car, so that from outside the car you see the inside of the major ribs.
        I personally think the term "inverted" is not a good idea. It sounds like upside down, not like either regular or indented or reversed. I would urge it not to be used.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





David
 

The tricky part here is that the "early" Dreadnaught end had the forked stampings pressed inward relative to the base plane of the panel, however the "rolling pin" did protrude outward *slightly* from the base plane. This can be seen in the cross-section on the N&W drawing. The joint between the panels on the early style varied somewhat- some had the slight rolling pin protrusion at the bottom of the upper panel, while others didn't. As far as I know, nobody had box cars with early Dreadnaught ends with the forks pressed outward. Some drop-end gondolas might have had theirs mounted that way, though?

The more familiar Dreadnaught end had the rolling pins stamped outward from the base, while the forks were the "negative area" between the rolling pins and the darts. Compare these to the earlier photo and drawing.

http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19356
http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=3923


Armand Premo
 

Indented or not,I haven't had any luck trying to find a few Intermountain AAR 1937 Pennsy box cars.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Indented" Dreadnaught Ends

 

Can anyone direct me to a photo and/or drawings showing an "indented Dreadnaught" end?

Are the corrugations "in" instead of "out"? Or do the corrugations start further from the side?

      David Thompson provided a link to a nice photo. As you can see there, the indented end is just like a regular end, but the edges of the stamping are flush with the outermost part of the end, instead of being aligned with the inner part. Otherwise the main ribs project above the background, so to speak, just like a regular Dreadnaught. The reverse Dreadnaught, on the other hand (often found on gondolas), has the major ribs projecting into the car, so that from outside the car you see the inside of the major rib s.
        I personally think the term "inverted" is not a good idea. It sounds like upside down, not like either regular or indented or reversed. I would urge it not to be used.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@sign aturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history





Brian Carlson
 

Armend 
Contrary to Intermountain paint schemes the Pennsy didn't own any. 
Brian Carlson 


On Apr 18, 2014, at 3:00 PM, "Armen Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:

 

Indented or not,I haven't had any luck trying to find a few Intermountain AAR 1937 Pennsy box cars.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Indented" Dreadnaught Ends

 


Armand Premo
 

Thank you Brian.I need a break from X'29s.Any source for X37s? Armand

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Indented" Dreadnaught Ends

 

Armend 
Contrary to Intermountain paint schemes the Pennsy didn't own any. 
Brian Carlson 


On Apr 18, 2014, at 3:00 PM, "Armen Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:

 

Indented or not,I haven't had any luck trying to find a few Intermountain AAR 1937 Pennsy box cars.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Indented" Dreadnaught Ends

 


hayden_tom@...
 

OK,  So, according to Jaydee, we should assume that the "base plane" of the end is the same plane as defined by the corners. And if the rolling pin protrudes outside of that plane you would call it just normal Dreadnaught. And if the top surface of the rolling pin is about at that plane, with the other surfaces below that plane we would call it Early, Indented, Reversed, or Inverse (depending on who is doing the naming).  And maybe this "normal" Dreadnaught is the same as Modified Dreadnaught, or is that another variation altogether/

Tom


hayden_tom@...
 

I said :

And maybe this "normal" Dreadnaught is the same as Modified Dreadnaught, or is that another variation altogether/

I meant "Improved Dreadnaught" 

Tom


destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <hayden_tom@...> wrote :

"OK, I am quite confused. I have now seen the terms Inverse, Reverse, Inverted, Indented, and Inset Dreadnaught."

Actually, this is the real, original Dreadnaught end, the way Union Metal Products intended. All others are imposters :-) (Well, at least later design changes.)


"I am puzzled about what many ( most?) of you see in these differences. In each case clearly there is shaping of the sheet metal that goes IN and OUT . It seems to me that in every dreadnaught Boxcar end, including my atsf link and David's recent link, the "tapered rolling pin" shape bulges outward. I have never seen a Dreadnaught box card end where the tapered rolling pin shape bulges inward."
You haven't looked enough... they did exist, although shortly after the 1960 cut-off date of this list. Years ago, John Nerich (sp?) wanted to call this a "bifurcated end" or somesuch, because of the apparent forked shape of the pressings, but they are really just the same old Dreadnaught major and minor rib, seen from the other side of the sheet.

 "The biggest differences from the norm that I see in both my photo and David's is that in both cases the riveted seam, where upper and lower part are connected, are at the level of the top surface of the tapered rolling pin shapes. And since this rivet seam is at the same surface point as the corner pieces, this means the the top of the tapered rolling pin shape is at the same plane as the corners. Thus the surfaces between the rolling pin shape are below the plane defined by the corner pieces. Is this what you guys are calling "Inverted" or "Inny"?"

Yep.

"By the way, note that on the N&W end in David's photo the rivet seam is in a flat area that seems to be impressed /pressed into the middle of a rolling pin shape, leaving slight bulges above and below the seam. The drawing David linked does not show that but instead shows the riveted area as a flat area slightly below the surface height of the rolling pin bulges. This would make it slightly less an "inny" than the atsf car I show."

It's there... you are not interpreting the drawing correctly. None of the vertical sectional views are on the car centerline, so these don't show in section. However, if you look at the horizontal sections at the bottom of the sheet, you will see that the large ribs have a graceful swell past a straight line between the plane of the corner flanges. The center seam area is flattened and dose not follow this swell.

Dennis Storzek
 


Tony Thompson
 

Tom Hayden wrote:

 

OK,  So, according to Jaydee, we should assume that the "base plane" of the end is the same plane as defined by the corners. And if the rolling pin protrudes outside of that plane you would call it just normal Dreadnaught. And if the top surface of the rolling pin is about at that plane, with the other surfaces below that plane we would call it Early, Indented, Reversed, or Inverse (depending on who is doing the naming).  And maybe this "normal" Dreadnaught is the same as Modified Dreadnaught, or is that another variation altogether/


      Again, this description is fine EXCEPT that you make no provision for TRUE reverse Dreadnaughts (turned around a vertical axis, so that major ribs protrude inward and not outward). And AGAIN, I believe that "inverse" is a confusing term which should be avoided.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





hayden_tom@...
 

Thanks Dennis, That clears up a lot. But there is obviously still a lot of confusion by us modelers using different terms. Maybe you, or someone, could publish a document that we could all use to define standard terminology. Years ago someone did this for PRR lettering so that we all (or most of us) can refer to NK, CK, SK etc ( for No Keystone, Circle Keystone, and Shadow Keystone) with various phase #s . It would be great if someone said boxcar XYZ had "4/5 Indented Dreadnaught" ends and everyone knew what that meant. 

Tom


destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <hayden_tom@...> wrote :

"Thanks Dennis, That clears up a lot. But there is obviously still a lot of confusion by us modelers using different terms. Maybe you, or someone, could publish a document that we could all use to define standard terminology. Years ago someone did this for PRR lettering so that we all (or most of us) can refer to NK, CK, SK etc ( for No Keystone, Circle Keystone, and Shadow Keystone) with various phase #s . It would be great if someone said boxcar XYZ had "4/5 Indented Dreadnaught" ends and everyone knew what that meant. "

The confusion is self induced; it comes from thirty years of people making up names that have no basis in the prototype, so there is no reference to look up. That's one of the reasons I refrain from making up names. The problem is, the prototype didn't have distinctive names for most these variations, because they weren't all available concurrently, so "new and improved" as opposed to "old" served the purpose well enough.

This is really less of a problem for the hobby these days than it was years ago, because there are just so many good photos and drawings available today... Just do what someone did earlier in this discussion and link to a photo, and the confusion is gone.

Dennis



David
 

The lack of terminology is a problem primarily for modelers, but it also brings up the issue of what railroads would ask for if they needed to replace an obsolete end style due to damage. I suppose they could reference a drawing # if they had one. And on that note, what did Santa Fe ask for when they were buying early-style Dreadnaught ends up to 1940 for their reefer rebuilds?

David Thompson


A&Y Dave in MD
 

I don't know, but I would guess they would refer to a drawing, part, or catalog number given them by the salesman. How many of the same type car end would one manufacturer offer at the same time? Reading Karig's coal car book, I get the sense the industry was moving to standard parts to reduce maintenance costs in the first 2-3 decades of the twentieth century.

Think about computers today. They vary, but you order a Dell Lattitude as the model, then you add specs like hard drive size, ram amount, operating system, etc.  All Dell latitudes are not the same, but there is no nomenclature for each constellation of options. You refer to the Dell Lattitude and serial number. 

I could visualize a bluish carbon copy on onion skin letter requesting a quote on "your corrugated car end referred to in your May 8 offer." 

Dave Bott


On Apr 19, 2014, at 8:45 AM, <jaydeet2001@...> wrote:

 

The lack of terminology is a problem primarily for modelers, but it also brings up the issue of what railroads would ask for if they needed to replace an obsolete end style due to damage. I suppose they could reference a drawing # if they had one. And on that note, what did Santa Fe ask for when they were buying early-style Dreadnaught ends up to 1940 for their reefer rebuilds?

David Thompson


hayden_tom@...
 

Yes,  The RR industry itself had no problem describing or ordering the correct parts, It's just us modelers and railfans that need the descriptive nomenclature. Just like all the phases of various diesel locos, Those terms Phase I , Phase II, etc. were not GM designation; they are just raifan and modeler designations. I'm suggesting someone knowledgeable in the modeling community write up similar terminology for rail car ends. 

Tom Hayden