Did I Ruin It?


Rossiter, Mark W <Mark.Rossiter@...>
 

Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to  an oxide red colored single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at some point.  The results looked promising until the model was completely dry.  The car is now almost completely white.  It looks like something out of a ghost fleet.  Is there any way to recover from this?  No amount of additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic. 

 

Mark Rossiter  

 


Andy Miller
 

I am glad to say that I have never had exactly this experience, so my
suggestions are mostly conjecture. I have had cases where Dullcote turns
white when it dries on a model. I have always suspected that it has
something to do with the humidity, but I would be happy to have someone with
real knowledge of this awful experience to chime in. In your case I suspect
the alcohol produced this effect.



The only solution I have ever found is to put several more layers of
Dullcote on the model. It will dissolve the haze, and if things go well the
haze will not entirely return.



The good news-bad news is that according to my LHS Rustoleum/Testors is
sending Dullcote the way of Floquil, Pactra, Testors and all the other
brands we had relied on. They seem to believe that anything a model
railroader needs can be bought in a large size spray can of Rustoleum L So
we won't have this probem much longer.



Regards,



Andy Miller



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:42 AM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Did I Ruin It?





Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to an oxide red colored
single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at
some point. The results looked promising until the model was completely
dry. The car is now almost completely white. It looks like something out
of a ghost fleet. Is there any way to recover from this? No amount of
additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic.



Mark Rossiter


Pierre Oliver
 

Respiratory with Dullcote

Pierre Oliver


On May 27, 2014, at 9:41 AM, "'Rossiter, Mark W' Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to  an oxide red colored single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at some point.  The results looked promising until the model was completely dry.  The car is now almost completely white.  It looks like something out of a ghost fleet.  Is there any way to recover from this?  No amount of additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic. 

 

Mark Rossiter  

 


Paul Doggett <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

if you give it a light spray with testors thinners you may be able to restore it to a lightly weathered condition. l had a similar problem but not with dullcoat but with humbrol/revel Matt varnish 
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"'Rossiter, Mark W' Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to  an oxide red colored single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at some point.  The results looked promising until the model was completely dry.  The car is now almost completely white.  It looks like something out of a ghost fleet.  Is there any way to recover from this?  No amount of additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic. 

 

Mark Rossiter  

 


Pierre Oliver
 

Damn spell correct
Respray with Dullcote

Pierre Oliver


On May 27, 2014, at 10:08 AM, "Pierre Oliver pierre.oliver@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Respiratory with Dullcote

Pierre Oliver


On May 27, 2014, at 9:41 AM, "'Rossiter, Mark W' Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to  an oxide red colored single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at some point.  The results looked promising until the model was completely dry.  The car is now almost completely white.  It looks like something out of a ghost fleet.  Is there any way to recover from this?  No amount of additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic. 

 

Mark Rossiter  

 


Dennis Williams
 

I had some luck on high gloss clear. I put 2 or 3 light coats. Sometimes it would clear up. Dennis Williams


------------------------------

On Tue, May 27, 2014 7:11 AM PDT Paul Doggett paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC] wrote:

if you give it a light spray with testors thinners you may be able to restore it to a lightly weathered condition. l had a similar problem but not with dullcoat but with humbrol/revel Matt varnish 
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile"'Rossiter, Mark W' Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to  an oxide red colored single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at some point.  The results looked promising until the model was completely dry.  The car is now almost completely white.  It looks like something out of a ghost fleet.  Is there any way to recover from this?  No amount of additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic. 

 

Mark Rossiter  

 


Charlie Duckworth
 

Mark
I've been able to get rid of the Dullcote chalky whiteness by airbrushing a light coat of Tamiya's acrylic clear over it.  

Charlie Duckworth


Cyril Durrenberger
 

I would try another coat of dullcoat, but do it on a day with low humidity. I have had the same problem with washes thinned with alcohol.

Cyril Durrenberger
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 5/27/14, 'Rossiter, Mark W' Mark.Rossiter@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Did I Ruin It?
To: "stmfc@..." <stmfc@...>
Date: Tuesday, May 27, 2014, 6:41 AM
















 













Group: I recently applied
an alcohol/India Ink wash to  an oxide red colored
single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed
with Dullcoat at some point.  The results looked
promising until the model was completely dry.  The
car is now almost completely white.  It looks like
something out of a ghost fleet.  Is there any way to
recover from this?  No amount of additional weathering
will make it took even remotely realistic. 

 
Mark Rossiter


al_brown03
 

I haven't used alcohol and India ink, but I've definitely experienced whitening from spraying Dullcote on a humid day. In my hands, sometimes an additional coat of Dullcote removes the whitening, sometimes it doesn't; what works for me pretty consistently is to overspray with Glosscote (which removes the whitening) *then* Dullcote (making sure the humidity's gone down).

 

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

It wasn't as a result of using alcohol over Dullcoat but I do remember having Dullcoat turn white once. I airbrushed Gloss over it which eliminated the "white" and then, when that was dry, applied another coat of Dullcoat on. Problem solved.

 

Jack Burgess


Steve SANDIFER
 

Been there, done that. Tha alcohol/india ink wash works great on some cars
and terrible on others. Just spray it again with a clear coat - may take
more than one coat, but usually fixes things.

________________________________________________________________
Steve Sandifer
12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477
713-376-0684
www.ssandifer.com

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 8:42 AM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Did I Ruin It?


Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to an oxide red colored
single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at
some point. The results looked promising until the model was completely
dry. The car is now almost completely white. It looks like something out
of a ghost fleet. Is there any way to recover from this? No amount of
additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic.

Mark Rossiter


Marty McGuirk
 

Applying an alchohol wash over Dullcote is a technique used by modern era (and military armor modelers) all the time to duplicate extensively faded paint. Sounds like you've accidentally discovered this process!

 

A second (or sometimes a third) coat of Dullcote will usually reverse the clouding effect of the alchohol.

I also have never heard that humidity has any impact on this technique.

 

What is normally NOT done is applying an alcohol/India ink wash to the model - I suspect in your case the India ink residue is there to stay.

 

Hope this helps,

Marty McGuirk

 

 


golden1014
 

Mark,

This has happened to me in the past.  In my experience, it happens when you're spraying Dullcote in a humid environment.  To rescue the model, I usually use paint thinner, mixed with about 20-25% of the original car color, and paint the model with the thinner and let it dry for a few days.  The thinner will take of most of the white coat and the original car color mixed in will fill most of the gaps.  

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL


A&Y Dave in MD
 

The haze, as I understand it, is the talc in dullcote coming out of a certain chemical state. I have applied alcohol or more dullcote to return the talc into a state that creates a flat appearance instead of the white coloring. Chemists may explain the states of the talc, e.g., colloidal suspension, etc.

Dave Bott


On May 27, 2014, at 9:59 AM, "'Andrew Miller' aslmmiller@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I am glad to say that I have never had exactly this experience, so my
suggestions are mostly conjecture. I have had cases where Dullcote turns
white when it dries on a model. I have always suspected that it has
something to do with the humidity, but I would be happy to have someone with
real knowledge of this awful experience to chime in. In your case I suspect
the alcohol produced this effect.

The only solution I have ever found is to put several more layers of
Dullcote on the model. It will dissolve the haze, and if things go well the
haze will not entirely return.

The good news-bad news is that according to my LHS Rustoleum/Testors is
sending Dullcote the way of Floquil, Pactra, Testors and all the other
brands we had relied on. They seem to believe that anything a model
railroader needs can be bought in a large size spray can of Rustoleum L So
we won't have this probem much longer.

Regards,

Andy Miller

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:42 AM
To: stmfc@...
Subject: [STMFC] Did I Ruin It?

Group: I recently applied an alcohol/India Ink wash to an oxide red colored
single sheathed box car that I now suspect had been sprayed with Dullcoat at
some point. The results looked promising until the model was completely
dry. The car is now almost completely white. It looks like something out
of a ghost fleet. Is there any way to recover from this? No amount of
additional weathering will make it took even remotely realistic.

Mark Rossiter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


ed_mines
 

Professor Golden is correct.

 

I was senior chemist at HumiSeal (supplier of sprayable, solvent borne coatings) for 12 years.

 

The whitening is caused by moisture condensing and is called gun blush. As solvent evaporates it draws heat away from everything in the vicinity of the coating. When the coating temperature goes below the dew point moisture condenses on it, sometimes causing spots and sometimes whitening the entire coating.

 

Humid days have higher dew points.

 

Occasionally the whitening can be eliminated by baking in an oven, but plastic may deform before the white goes away.

 

Ed Mines


ed_mines
 

This sometimes works too. Also solvent alone,

 

Ed Mines


destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <ed_mines@...> wrote :

 

"The whitening is caused by moisture condensing and is called gun blush. As solvent evaporates it draws heat away from everything in the vicinity of the coating. When the coating temperature goes below the dew point moisture condenses on it, sometimes causing spots and sometimes whitening the entire coating."


The problem is, this didn't happen when he sprayed the Dullcoat, but rather when he coated it later with alcohol. Mike Rose, who inhabits some of the post 1960 modeling forums, advocates this as a weathering technique.


My own experience years ago is methyl alcohol (wood alcohol) would make Dullcoat blush for sure, but isopropyl would not, if used sparingly... but this was some years ago, and the formulation of Dullcoat may have changed. I don't recall if I ever successfully revered the process.



 Dennis Storzek



Mark.Rossiter@...
 

Thanks to all who responded to my plea for help.  I'll try spraying the model with another coat or two of clear.  At this point, I've got little to lose.  The worst that can happen is that I have to strip it completely and start over with a new paint job.  I spent a lot of time adding roof grabs, side grabs, A-Line steps, coupler lift bars, and other fine details.  The alchohol/india ink wash was an experiment in weathering that I won't be attempting again any time soon.  At least not in the same context. 

 

Mark Rossiter

 


Tim O'Connor
 

Whatever brand of paint that Athearn applies to models made in China will
blush in the presence of isopropyl alcohol. Branchline models will not blush
but the paint will wash away if you're not careful. Accurail models stand up
to a gentle alcohol wash and you can get some nice streaking effects from
the lettering.

In other words I thought this whole "blushing" business was deliberate! You
can get some really great weathering results with alcohol washes.

I haven't tried methyl alcohol directly, but I think there is some present in
so-called "denatured" ethanol. These two (isopropyl and denatured) are my
favorites for weathering washes.

Tim O'Connor

My own experience years ago is methyl alcohol (wood alcohol) would make Dullcoat blush for sure, but isopropyl would not, if used sparingly... but this was some years ago, and the formulation of Dullcoat may have changed. I don't recall if I ever successfully revered the process.

Dennis Storzek


richard haave
 

Here is something from he Diesel Detailer group about dullcoat that may be of interest:


  http://dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/14302/when-dullcoat-goes-bad


Dick Haave