main@RealSTMFC.groups.io

al_westerfield

#126845

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Select a simple CAD program for use of everyone on the list.

Establish a library of designs that can be plugged into different prototypes – example: reefer door hinges, rivets, scribing.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Establish standards for quality and material with perhaps qualified vendors.

Establish standards for thicknesses of major parts so kitbashing is simpler.

Sell downloads for major parts such as roofs and ends.

There are so many opportunities here I‘ve only scratched the surface. Anyone want to add some ideas? – Al Westerfield

Ray Breyer

#126846

Already been done, Al. It's called Shapeways.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Show quoted text

From: "'Al and Patricia Westerfield' westerfieldalfred@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 8:38 AM
Subject: [STMFC] CAD library

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Select a simple CAD program for use of everyone on the list.

Establish a library of designs that can be plugged into different prototypes – example: reefer door hinges, rivets, scribing.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Establish standards for quality and material with perhaps qualified vendors.

Establish standards for thicknesses of major parts so kitbashing is simpler.

Sell downloads for major parts such as roofs and ends.

There are so many opportunities here I‘ve only scratched the surface. Anyone want to add some ideas? – Al Westerfield

Pierre Oliver

#126847

Technically, Ray, no it hasn't. Shapeways has a selection but no standards, no index, and certainly no quality review.
FWIW, any 3D work I am having done or am looking at having done will be proprietary, and thus not for sharing.

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 8/14/2014 9:42 AM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] wrote:

Show quoted text

Already been done, Al. It's called Shapeways.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

From: "'Al and Patricia Westerfield' westerfieldalfred@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 8:38 AM
Subject: [STMFC] CAD library

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Select a simple CAD program for use of everyone on the list.

Establish a library of designs that can be plugged into different prototypes – example: reefer door hinges, rivets, scribing.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Establish standards for quality and material with perhaps qualified vendors.

Establish standards for thicknesses of major parts so kitbashing is simpler.

Sell downloads for major parts such as roofs and ends.

There are so many opportunities here I‘ve only scratched the surface. Anyone want to add some ideas? – Al Westerfield

Jack Burgess <jack@...>

#126853

I've done about 20 parts using Shapeways and, while they can be seen on the Shapeways site (https://www.shapeways.com/designer/jack1939), they are not for sale since I don't want a buyer to be disappointed by the current quality of parts...resolution still needs to increase before a printed part can be usable in most situations without some sanding and filling. These are all O scale parts and some of my smaller parts can be used as is but those are so small that they can barely be seen on the finished model.

Jack Burgess

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Select a simple CAD program for use of everyone on the list.

Establish a library of designs that can be plugged into different prototypes – example: reefer door hinges, rivets, scribing.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Establish standards for quality and material with perhaps qualified vendors.

Establish standards for thicknesses of major parts so kitbashing is simpler.

Sell downloads for major parts such as roofs and ends.

There are so many opportunities here I‘ve only scratched the surface. Anyone want to add some ideas? – Al Westerfield

al_westerfield

#126857

I was probably the second MRR manufacturer to use CAD derived parts for my bull’s eye ends for the XL box. I’m far from an expert but in my experience if you avoid showing vertical layers lower quality is acceptable. So what we’re talking about is a return to flat parts in the short term. Car bodies require much finer layering. But because of cost, isn’t this a natural for the large amount of kit bashing we do?

BTW Jack, you’re work is awesome. - Al Westerfield

From: mailto:STMFC@...

Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 9:54 AM

To: STMFC@...

Subject: RE: [STMFC] CAD library

I've done about 20 parts using Shapeways and, while they can be seen on the Shapeways site (https://www.shapeways.com/designer/jack1939), they are not for sale since I don't want a buyer to be disappointed by the current quality of parts...resolution still needs to increase before a printed part can be usable in most situations without some sanding and filling. These are all O scale parts and some of my smaller parts can be used as is but those are so small that they can barely be seen on the finished model.

Jack Burgess

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Select a simple CAD program for use of everyone on the list.

Establish a library of designs that can be plugged into different prototypes – example: reefer door hinges, rivets, scribing.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Establish standards for quality and material with perhaps qualified vendors.

Establish standards for thicknesses of major parts so kitbashing is simpler.

Sell downloads for major parts such as roofs and ends.

There are so many opportunities here I‘ve only scratched the surface. Anyone want to add some ideas? – Al Westerfield

Curt Fortenberry

#126860

In my limited use of Shapeways, the issue I find is holding small detail that stands off, like a rib or bracket. In HO that's about 1" scale part thickness if you use their finest material (which costs extra). Other materials have larger minimums. I recently did hopper heap shields which is why this issue came up. The parts came out but like was noted, the material is a bit frosted so needs a primer almost to look decent. On a model at a distance it's not an issue. Printing technology is always changing.

I've used both Sketchup and Autocad to create 3d models.

Curt Fortenberry

twinstarcars

#126871

Curt,

I have had the best luck with a 3D Systems "Viper" tool. Shapeways is not the only game in town. I have several parts to make and am currently searching for a prototype house with a Viper that has tool time available.

Ross

Scott H. Haycock

#126877

Al Wrote:

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Recently, a thread on the ALPS printing list discussed selling decal artwork to individuals to print their own decals. It was noted that once someone bought some artwork, what would prevent them from sharing it on the internet?

I can see a similar problem with selling 3D CAD files.

Does anyone know of a way to protect one's work when sold online?

Scott Haycock

destorzek@...

#126878

There isn't any. I think what Al is proposing is a collection of shareware CAD files... which would be nice, but I'm not sure it's going to happen.I'm not sure there is any hurry; rapid prototyping has a long way to go to make really useful stuff.Dennis Storzek

Charles Peck

#126879

As I understand from what I read, no personal experience, the 3-D custom printing studios with

the latest greatest machines have only marginally good enough resolution for most model

projects. Of course, opinions vary as to what is "good enough".

To me, that means home size printers that are economically in reach of average hobbyists are

still quite a ways in the future.

So it seems that the model of leaving the software creation in the hands of the printing studio

and letting them pay a royalty or credit to the creator is a workable solution.

Chuck Peck

Show quoted text

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 7:45 PM, 'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Al Wrote:
Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Recently, a thread on the ALPS printing list discussed selling decal artwork to individuals to print their own decals. It was noted that once someone bought some artwork, what would prevent them from sharing it on the internet?

I can see a similar problem with selling 3D CAD files.

Does anyone know of a way to protect one's work when sold online?

Scott Haycock

Tony Thompson

#126880

Dennis Storzek wrote:

There isn't any. I think what Al is proposing is a collection of shareware CAD files... which would be nice, but I'm not sure it's going to happen.

I suspect Dennis is right. The first thing any draftsman would do upon digitizing his employer's drawings is to create a library of components, to avoid repetition in creating the same component parts over and over. That is the idea behind this CAD library. But that draftsman can make every part of the library self-consistent and in agreement with his employer's drawing standards. Accomplishing that with shareware from many contributors is a lot more chancy, particularly with 3D-printing technology very much in flux. And not everyone is equally prepared to put the effort into open-source kinds of creations.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

Charlie Vlk

#126881

I’ve mentioned it before and Al raises a valid issue….

….with the range of parts that were used across prototypes it doesn’t make sense for each 3D Modeler to model a particular piece of hardware that has already been rendered accurately.

Having a library where for a reasonable royalty or reciprocal borrowing parts could be downloaded would be logical. However, I am sure that some standards would have to be established to make the parts usable in an assembly and even more so across platforms. Those active in creating 3D drawings would have to establish the parameters. Maybe someday the Carbuilders Cyclopedia will be available in a 3D CAD version…..

I haven’t had the need to master 3D drawing (yet) but from my exposure to 3D printed products (in N Scale, no less) I think the time is nigh for such activity. 3D printing is here and already useful for a wide range of parts. There certainly is room for refinement in printing services and machines output but plenty of stuff can be used today from the process.

Given the pace of technology I would predict that the use of 3D manufacturing on demand for Model Railroad items will be fairly common in the next decade….at least as widespread as the purchase of resin kits is today.

Charlie Vlk

Brian Carlson

#126882

Charlie wrote; "Given the pace of technology I would predict that the use of 3D manufacturing on demand for Model Railroad items will be fairly common in the next decade….at least as widespread as the purchase of resin kits is today."

I hope it becomes more common than that. No matter what we think, we resin kit buyers are a relatively small subset of the hobby.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY

al_westerfield

#126883

Let’s face it - our community is quite honest. The ORER CDs I offered (and which Andrew Dahm still does) are a cinch to copy. Yet sales continued well beyond issue date. CAD pay downloads would probably fare the same.

However, my daughter-in-law is a writer whose books have been offered on sharing sites. One a-hole in Australia is even selling them! There’s no easy answer. – Al Westerfield

From: mailto:STMFC@...

Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 6:45 PM

To: Steam Era Freight Cars

Subject: Re: [STMFC] CAD library

Al Wrote:

Has anyone considered setting standards for model railroad rapid prototyping? Here are some thoughts on the subject.

Set up a system of free and for-profit downloads.

Recently, a thread on the ALPS printing list discussed selling decal artwork to individuals to print their own decals. It was noted that once someone bought some artwork, what would prevent them from sharing it on the internet?

I can see a similar problem with selling 3D CAD files.

Does anyone know of a way to protect one's work when sold online?

Scott Haycock

drgwrail

#126884

From what I have seen Shapeways will only accept 3D CAD files made from AutoCAD 3D, and two other programs. These are really full blown engineering programs and last I checked the cost was over $5000 plus $1000 a year fee.  Wonderful programs but full of all kinds of bells and whistles the average guy making a file would not need.

My impression is that everyone who is doing 3 D CAd for rapid processing has access to his employer's software or a copy of the program obtained for student use. Beleive there was some mention of using "sketchit 3D" or some other free program but the output of these must be pretty crude.

If anyone knows of a low priced 3D CAD program I would sure like to hear about it. For those who have never worked with a real CAD program, it takes considerable time to become proficient, plus having a good knowledge of basic drafting procedures. I have used AutoCAD 2D for about 20 years and I still wonder at how accurately and easy things can be done.....as compared to the good old days of pencil and paper along with a pocket calculator to determine fits and interferences!!

Chuck Yungkurth
Louisville CO
 --------------------------------------------

Show quoted text

On Thu, 8/14/14, 'Brian J Carlson' prrk41361@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 Subject: RE: [STMFC] CAD library
 To: STMFC@...
 Date: Thursday, August 14, 2014, 7:19 PM


  








     
       Charlie wrote;
 "Given the pace of
 technology I would predict that the use of 3D manufacturing
 on demand for Model Railroad items will be fairly common in
 the next decade….at least as widespread as the purchase of
 resin kits is today."I hope it becomes
 more common than that. No matter what we think, we resin kit
 buyers are a relatively small subset of the hobby.
 Brian J. Carlson,
 P.E.Cheektowaga
 NY  
  

   







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Dave Nelson

#126885

If the last 12 years of train sims is any indication you’ll find a sharing library of 3D components to be a non-starter. Too many people have unrealistic opinions of the monetary value of what they’ve done, whether it comes in the form of trying to sell their own work or being compensated when it is used as an element in some other work.

Consider that there could already be a sharing library of molds from styrene, modelers wax, or whatever, all sorts of components to cover all of the items that 3D CAD might do… and how many examples of such sharing a library come to mind?

Look back at the commercial lines of add on parts, brass or plastic. They all required a rather large offering of different things to be viable… and how viable are they today?

A couple of items, no matter how well done, does not usually equate into a meaningful cash flow.

IMO Open Source, non-commercial offers are indeed the way to go but you simply have to persuade everybody with an interest in creating such items that the odds of any one person making enough money to be worth the hours is smoking the wrong stuff. Integration of such elements into other items must require they too be both Open Source and non-commercial. It is a hard to get people to sign up for that but it is, IMO the only way a library can be viable.

Be generous and give it away and you’ll all be better off for it.

Dave Nelson

n.b. test highlights below are mine.

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]

Having a library where for a reasonable royalty or reciprocal borrowing parts could be downloaded would be logical

Clark Cooper

#126889

Chuck,

Blender is free, and can be used to create 3D models of any complexity for printing by Shapeways. Like CAD software, there is a steep learning curve.  But, since Blender is oriented to arbitrary 3D modeling, it doesn't really require knowledge of drafting procedures.

Here's an introductory video on Blender that does a decent job of addressing 3D printing-specific issues like scale, hollow objects, and minimum wall thickness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnCf-5G7DYc

-Clark Cooper
(the other Iowa Clark)

Show quoted text

On Aug 14, 2014, at 9:00 PM, Charles R Yungkurth drgwrail@... [STMFC] wrote:

From what I have seen Shapeways will only accept 3D CAD files made from AutoCAD 3D, and two other programs. These are really full blown engineering programs and last I checked the cost was over $5000 plus $1000 a year fee. Wonderful programs but full of all kinds of bells and whistles the average guy making a file would not need.

My impression is that everyone who is doing 3 D CAd for rapid processing has access to his employer's software or a copy of the program obtained for student use. Beleive there was some mention of using "sketchit 3D" or some other free program but the output of these must be pretty crude.

If anyone knows of a low priced 3D CAD program I would sure like to hear about it. For those who have never worked with a real CAD program, it takes considerable time to become proficient, plus having a good knowledge of basic drafting procedures. I have used AutoCAD 2D for about 20 years and I still wonder at how accurately and easy things can be done.....as compared to the good old days of pencil and paper along with a pocket calculator to determine fits and interferences!!

Chuck Yungkurth
Louisville CO

arved_grass

#126890

Well, "economical" is way too ambiguous. Remember the thread a couple days ago about expensive kits? I'd say what's "reasonably priced" for me might be a lot different than for you or some other member of the list. You didn't factor in print quality into the equation, but prices are coming down for home 3D printers:Is $100 too expensive, or too cheap?http://www.peachyprinter.com/

A 4x4x4 inch printing volume is too small for even a 40' roof, but surely could print many of the detail parts you'd want. $349:

http://www.amazon.com/Printrbot-Simple-Maker-Edition-Kit/dp/B00KJ6BU4K/ref=zg_bs_6066127011_4

7.8" x 7.8" x 7.8" (20 cm x 20 cm x 20 cm) might be more realistic, but at $500:

http://www.amazon.com/XYZprinting-Da-Vinci-1-0-Printer/dp/B00H7VEU0G/ref=zg_bs_6066127011_1

I'm not sure a "home quality" printer is up to it. Surely, my tastes in photographic printers tend to run in the 4 figure range. Sure, you can get a decent home printer for $100 and print photos, but they don't compare to lab quality prints until you get to the upper 3-figure range. We still don't have "home priced" inkjet printers that can truly compare with "lab quality" photographic printers, and I would expect a similarly long development cycle for home vs. professional 3D printer quality.Arved GrassFleming Island, Florida

---In STMFC@..., <lnnrr152@...> wrote :

As I understand from what I read, no personal experience, the 3-D custom printing studios with

the latest greatest machines have only marginally good enough resolution for most model

projects. Of course, opinions vary as to what is "good enough".

To me, that means home size printers that are economically in reach of average hobbyists are

still quite a ways in the future.

So it seems that the model of leaving the software creation in the hands of the printing studio

and letting them pay a royalty or credit to the creator is a workable solution.

Chuck Peck

destorzek@...

#126904

---In STMFC@..., <cvlk@...> wrote :

"Having a library where for a reasonable royalty or reciprocal borrowing parts could be downloaded

Given the pace of technology I would predict that the use of 3D manufacturing on demand for Model Railroad items will be fairly common in the next decade….at least as widespread as the purchase of resin kits is today."

Charlie Vlk

Charlie,

You are falling into the trap of believing that like computers, the technology is going to double in power at half the price every eighteen months. I've been watching what this technology can do for over twenty years now, and in my view the "Moore's law" interval is more like ten years... which means most of us participating in this discussion will be passed on before anything truly useful develops. The fact that someone is now offering inexpensive cake decorating machines doesn't mean that the high resolution we need is going to become cheap or available anytime soon.

Dennis Storzek

destorzek@...

#126905

---In STMFC@..., <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote :

"If the last 12 years of train sims is any indication you’ll find a sharing library of 3D components to be a non-starter. Too many people have unrealistic opinions of the monetary value of what they’ve done, whether it comes in the form of trying to sell their own work or being compensated when it is used as an element in some other work."

"Consider that there could already be a sharing library of molds from styrene, modelers wax, or whatever, all sorts of components to cover all of the items that 3D CAD might do… and how many examples of such sharing a library come to mind?"

Dave Nelson

=====================

Funny you should mention this. Sitting on my desk is a letter I need to respond to asking for the CAD file for the Accurail 40' boxcar. I just don't really even know where to begin...

Dennis Storzek