The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling


Bill Welch
 

Given the "Ephemeral Nature of Modeling" I am going to email Ted and ask him to withdraw my article using the MDC 50-foot single sheathed car to model SL-SF and T&P prototype for Volume Three of Prototype Railroad Modeling. Further since the Group has said authoritatively that the prototypes represented by Sunshine's array of kits will never again be seen under another label or remastered (or words/meanings to that effect), I am not going to finish writing the captions for the article I am working on for Volume Four about modeling the T&NO's Allen Door equipped SS cars or Part II Modeling... of the Article I started in Volume Two where I wrote about the FGE/WFE/BRE System's truss rod refrigerator cars since no one has any of them in their stash of kits.

Bill Welch


Tom Madden
 

Bill doesn't do sarcasm particularly well, but his point is well taken. I've been covering the expense of my 3D printing and CAD work very nicely by marketing replacement parts for Branchline heavyweight Pullman kits, which haven't been produced for several years. But there are thousands of them still out there. Sunshine kits are also out there, by the hundreds. It's also unwise to dismiss the possibility of some of Sunshine's kits reappearing, as Bill says, remastered and/or under a different brand.

About half way through RMC's publication of Ted's articles, I decided to scan each one, save them as PDFs, and compile an index in Excel. I refer to them often, and being able to call up any of his articles on my laptop with one click makes them extremely useful. There is so much "technique" embedded in each article that I don't see them becoming obsolete any time soon. Paul Larson and Jack Work have been gone for many moons, but their articles from over half a century ago still contain much of value. I suspect Ted's will, too, 50 years from now.


Tom Madden


Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
 

At 03:34 PM 8/23/2014, Bill Welsh [STMFC] wrote:
<<snip>> Further since the Group has said authoritatively
To re-state: "A small, vocal minority of the Group has said...."

For the rest of us:
PLEASE! DO keep publishing your excellent articles... in whatever form you feel works best:
Bound publication, printed magazine, e-zine, blog... or even as a PDF to those interested...

I suspect I am NOT alone in valuing the useful mix of prototype information and modeling.
Thanks for all your efforts...


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Bill Welch
 

I guess age is making me less effectively acidic.
Bill Welch


Clark Propst
 

Ha, ha Bill.
 
Ted did a Milwaukee ribside box car in his series. He chose the Sunshine model. I asked him why he didn’t use the Ribside Cars version that everyone could get their hands on? His answer was that the Ribside Cars model was crap. He looked one over and threw it in the trash.
Now which would had served the readers better, how to assemble another resin kit, or how to bring the Ribside Cars model as close to his standard as he could?
That was my only beef with the series.
 
As discussed on this list before another issue facing potential article readers is that donor car kits are darn near impossible for the average guy to find anymore. Let alone paint and especially decals.
There’s a tend here fellas whether we like it or not. The stuff we like is, what could be called, Fringe Modeling. The magazines we held dear are gone and quality kits are extinct.
 
Can’t wait for the responses to this email  ;  ))
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Pierre Oliver
 

Clark has nailed this one.
Take a look at Ebay. There are almost 1/2 million items listed in the model train section, of all scales and interests. How many resin kits are listed?
I've always maintained that we the self described prototype modelers are a tiny percentage of the masses who fiddle with model trains.
You want more stuff? Get more people to buy it.
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 24/08/2014 11:03 AM, cepropst@q.com [STMFC] wrote:

 

Ha, ha Bill.
 
Ted did a Milwaukee ribside box car in his series. He chose the Sunshine model. I asked him why he didn’t use the Ribside Cars version that everyone could get their hands on? His answer was that the Ribside Cars model was crap. He looked one over and threw it in the trash.
Now which would had served the readers better, how to assemble another resin kit, or how to bring the Ribside Cars model as close to his standard as he could?
That was my only beef with the series.
 
As discussed on this list before another issue facing potential article readers is that donor car kits are darn near impossible for the average guy to find anymore. Let alone paint and especially decals.
There’s a tend here fellas whether we like it or not. The stuff we like is, what could be called, Fringe Modeling. The magazines we held dear are gone and quality kits are extinct.
 
Can’t wait for the responses to this email  ;  ))
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


golden1014
 

Hi Richard,,
I'm risking moderator jail here--been there before and it's not fun, but I'm sure Tim O will be there sooner or later to keep me company.  

I like being called a vocal minority--it's the first time I've ever been called vocal.  On the other hand I've been getting a lot of death threats about my post so I'll take being vocal and run with it!  And I'm just kidding for all you lawyers out there.

Nevertheless I stand by my comments.  If EFC is so valuable, then where is the much-sought after book?  The book would surely make Ted wealthy and help keep RMC in business, and foster new models.  Instead, RMC is gone and there's still no book deal.  Conversely, look at RP Cyc.  I saw an ad last night where RP Cycs 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are up to $75 ea.  RP Cyc #1 goes for $100.  What does an RMC with EFC go for?  Fifty cents?  So where is your hobby dollar best spent?  I can spent $100 max on my hobby every month and that's it.  I'm going for RP Cyc.  I can't afford to buy a $90 Sunshine kit on EBay.

The word ephemeral means that an object loses value over time.  Read carefully: I didn't say that EFC was valueless--I think I said it was outstanding or something to that effect, because it is.  But I still think you would be disappointed with the book, because you probably already have all the articles, or you probably have most of the histocial information in your library, or you don't want to spend $90 a pop to get the model of EBay.  Personally speaking I can't afford to spend that $100 on something I already have.

Do we still follow Mont's excellent articles on kitbashing a Monon 1958 covered hopper using the MDC model as found in MM 1980-something?  Nope, because the MDC model was supplanted by the Kato model, and then the Bowser model, and then the Intermountain model.  If any article is valuable to you I will not argue, but as your friend and fellow modeler I think you would find that the book would be not as essential as you thought, because you already have the information in hand elsewhere (as I stated initially).  

In the meantime, this vocal minority is wasting his time cobbling together the one-of-a-kind Sunshine IC two-pocket hopper, RP Cyc in hand.  Not a bad build but slow.  I hope to have it done for Naperville, just in time for the all-new HO scale model to be announced (no kidding).  

Hey, where's Tim?

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL



earlyrail
 


As discussed on this list before another issue facing potential article readers is that donor car kits are darn near impossible for the average guy to find anymore. Let alone paint and especially decals.
There�s a tend here fellas whether we like it or not. The stuff we like is, what could be called, Fringe Modeling. The magazines we held dear are gone and quality kits are extinct.
Try being on the fringe of this group and modeling 1905.
Even less to work with, even in the resin market.

There are a few out there that cater this this even more limited market then the transition, (majority of the STMFC group) market.

Howard Garner

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com


Tim O'Connor
 


yep. I recall how amazed I was when Southern Car & Foundry came out with
his magnificent Harriman cars, and then learning how few were sold (even
though they were fantastically perfect 1-piece bodies) even to supposedly
die-hard SP modelers.

I guess we're all 1 percenters! :-)




Clark has nailed this one.
Take a look at Ebay. There are almost 1/2 million items listed in the model train section, of all scales and interests. How many resin kits are listed?
I've always maintained that we the self described prototype modelers are a tiny percentage of the masses who fiddle with model trains.
You want more stuff? Get more people to buy it.

Pierre Oliver


John Barry
 



I'd really like to understand what about the Rib Side Cars that relegates them to the dust bin of  experts.  I read Ted's article on the Milwaukee boxes and put some on my wish list to fill the numbers I arrived at after looking at and extrapolating from Tony's fleet composition posts on his blog.  I lucked into a series of RSC kits at very attractive prices and obtained four, two each long and short rib versions.  I want to have a representative fleet for my Dec 44 timed layout.  I'm thankful for the Westerfield Jan 45 ORER CD and Ted's series in RMC and all the articles no longer available on TrainLife.  Without them, I'd be floundering worse than I am.  I spent a lot of time learning about and collecting things Santa Fe, these resources allow me to do a creditable job for the 70% of the online cars that were NOT Santa Fe without having to dedicate four more lifetimes to becoming expert on MILW, PRR, NYC, SAL, not to mention AB&C.  I might have to build an FX car to consign to Marinwood via the NWP at Tiberon.  I don't need permission from MRS, although I need info on a car.  KGB may be listening in but not NSA, at least in my era.  With these resources, I can engage in a bit of foobieless entendre, whilst keeping things prototypical.  I hope that the RSC cars can be made into decent representatives of their prototypes, as they do shout MILW and need to be seen in my 44 freight car mix.
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682


From: "cepropst@q.com [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:03 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling

 
Ha, ha Bill.
 
Ted did a Milwaukee ribside box car in his series. He chose the Sunshine model. I asked him why he didn’t use the Ribside Cars version that everyone could get their hands on? His answer was that the Ribside Cars model was crap. He looked one over and threw it in the trash.
Now which would had served the readers better, how to assemble another resin kit, or how to bring the Ribside Cars model as close to his standard as he could?
That was my only beef with the series.
 
As discussed on this list before another issue facing potential article readers is that donor car kits are darn near impossible for the average guy to find anymore. Let alone paint and especially decals.
There’s a tend here fellas whether we like it or not. The stuff we like is, what could be called, Fringe Modeling. The magazines we held dear are gone and quality kits are extinct.
 
Can’t wait for the responses to this email  ;  ))
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa



Tim O'Connor
 

John Golden wrote

Nevertheless I stand by my comments. If EFC is so valuable, then where is the much-sought after book? The book would surely make Ted wealthy and help keep RMC in business, and foster new models. Instead, RMC is gone and there's still no book deal. Conversely, look at RP Cyc. I saw an ad last night where RP Cycs 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are up to $75 ea. RP Cyc #1 goes for $100.

John, here are some factual data points for RP Cyc auctions -- I sold
my Dad's duplicates a couple of months ago.

Volume 1 -- $38.84
Volume 2 -- $81.00
Volume 19 -- $26.00

You really can't judge by advertised prices on Amazon or Ebay Buy It Now.
An auction is the only way to truly gauge the market value. Some books I
sold for much more than I expected, while others sold for a fraction of
the prices I see on places like Amazon.

Tim O'


Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

The cost of old RP cycs is not a a great analogy! <G>. For Ted (or anyone else) to produce a book, there needs to be demand on the order of 1500-3000 copies. OTOH, for the price to be driven up on an out of print periodical requires just two people who really want it and are willing to pay the price. Those same two will do nothing for the sales of newly released book.

I will tell you that the last two PRRT&HS freight car books (flat cars and gons) have sold very poorly. In my biased opnion, they were both excellent books. We're still sitting on a majority of copies of both even though the print runs were relatively small.

On the subject of ephemeral data, one of my go-to resources for PRR steel hoppers is a book John Teichmoeller produced based on a series of articles that had been published. The prototype date remains a wonderful resource (although our understanding of some details has changed over time) but the modeling is pretty dated at this point (and in fact, some was dated the day the book was published!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 1:18 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling

John Golden wrote

Nevertheless I stand by my comments. If EFC is so valuable, then where is the much-sought after book? The book would surely make Ted wealthy and help keep RMC in business, and foster new models. Instead, RMC is gone and there's still no book deal. Conversely, look at RP Cyc. I saw an ad last night where RP Cycs 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are up to $75 ea. RP Cyc #1 goes for $100.

John, here are some factual data points for RP Cyc auctions -- I sold
my Dad's duplicates a couple of months ago.

Volume 1 -- $38.84
Volume 2 -- $81.00
Volume 19 -- $26.00

You really can't judge by advertised prices on Amazon or Ebay Buy It Now.
An auction is the only way to truly gauge the market value. Some books I
sold for much more than I expected, while others sold for a fraction of
the prices I see on places like Amazon.

Tim O'





------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Benjamin Scanlon
 

I was thinking the other day that with the disappearance of a number of good sources of online photos (on which, being overseas, I'm especially reliant) it's probably a good thing  ... as now I can't even *see* the things I'd like to model in TT but can't, due to lack of kits and the now total extinction of (TT) decal supplies. 

Luckily my other prototype - Australian - is looking up.  Aussie manufacturers have been way out ahead of the pack in 3D, and lettering needs are simpler ... a number of railway systems there hardly interchanged freight cars at all.


Ben Scanlon

Tottenham Hale, UK


arved_grass
 

I recently purchased two of the 40' Ribside Car kits. I'd certainly like to know Ted's (or anyone else's) problems and suggestions as well. Compared to the old Train Miniature car, these models seem fantastic. Is it simply a case of prefering a resin kit when it's available? He doesn't strike me as a snob. You all know him much better than I do.

Speaking of "Ephemeral" models, Volume II of the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia includes:

"Modeling ART's First Steel Reefer (10 pages)
by Charles Duckworth

"The American Refrigerator Company purchased more than 1,000 steel reefers in 1936 that were clones to the PFE R-40-10. A history of the prototype cars is presented along with a roster of these cars and other similar ART cars built from 1939 to 1946. Models were fabricated by kitbashing an InterMountain Railway PFE R-40-23 reefer and installing square corner 4-4 Dreadnaught Ends and other details. A two-page ART lettering diagram (circa 1950s) is provided. Since the Volume 2 was published, accurate models are now available from Sunshine Models."

Well, now that very, VERY good (IMHO) R-40-10 models are available from Intermountain, I am wondering how relavent this article would be to adapting these models for the ART. Unfortunately, this volume is OOP, and my efforts to locate a copy have been nil (although, to be honest, I only began my search 6 months ago, and I keep hoping the issues no longer available from RP CYC Publishing Co. will show up in used bookstores (Railpubs.com, ABE books, etc.) or eBay, but they have so far evaded me.

Respectfully,
------------------------
Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 8/24/14, cepropst@q.com [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, August 24, 2014, 11:03 AM


 













Ha, ha Bill.
 
Ted did a Milwaukee ribside box car in his series. He
chose the Sunshine
model. I asked him why he didn’t use the Ribside Cars
version that everyone
could get their hands on? His answer was that the Ribside
Cars model was crap.
He looked one over and threw it in the trash.
Now which would had served the readers better, how to
assemble another
resin kit, or how to bring the Ribside Cars model as close
to his standard as he
could?
That was my only beef with the series.
 
As discussed on this list before another issue facing
potential article
readers is that donor car kits are darn near impossible for
the average guy to
find anymore. Let alone paint and especially decals.
There’s a tend here fellas whether we like it or not.
The stuff we like is,
what could be called, Fringe Modeling. The magazines we held
dear are gone and
quality kits are extinct.
 
Can’t wait for the responses to this email  ; 
))
Clark

Propst
Mason City Iowa










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arved_grass
 

I would be hard pressed to pay that much for a RP Cyc, but since they are OOP, it's a seller's market. May I ask where you found them?

RP Cyc volume 1 is available for $20.95, either directly from the publisher, or from dealers. I just got Volume 1 a couple weeks ago, and have fallen in love with the format. I can hardly wait to fill my library with these. And that's exactly what I paid - $20.95 plus postage. $100 may be the asking price, and "a fool and his money are soon parted," but I tend to doubt anyone looking for Volume 1 couldn't find it at a much more reasonable price than $100!

OTOH, RMC back issues (to collect the EFC series) are much more expensive usually. Refer to Railpub.com for more realistic pricing. If I could get the EFC series at 50 cents an issue, I'd gladly fork over the dough (even if it meant having to buy issues I already own).
------------------------
Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 8/24/14, golden1014@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, August 24, 2014, 11:22 AM


 









Hi Richard,,I'm risking
moderator jail here--been there before and it's not fun,
but I'm sure Tim O will be there sooner or later to keep
me company.  
I like
being called a vocal minority--it's the first time
I've ever been called vocal.  On the other hand
I've been getting a lot of death threats about my post
so I'll take being vocal and run with it!  And I'm
just kidding for all you lawyers out there.
Nevertheless I stand by my comments.
 If EFC is so valuable, then where is the much-sought after
book?  The book would surely make Ted wealthy and help keep
RMC in business, and foster new models.  Instead, RMC is
gone and there's still no book deal.  Conversely, look
at RP Cyc.  I saw an ad last night where RP Cycs 4, 5, 6,
7, and 8 are up to $75 ea.  RP Cyc #1 goes for $100.  What
does an RMC with EFC go for?  Fifty cents?  So where is
your hobby dollar best spent?  I can spent $100 max on my
hobby every month and that's it.  I'm going for RP
Cyc.  I can't afford to buy a $90 Sunshine kit on
EBay.
The word
ephemeral means that an object loses value over time.  Read
carefully: I didn't say that EFC was valueless--I think
I said it was outstanding or something to that effect,
because it is.  But I still think you would be disappointed
with the book, because you probably already have all the
articles, or you probably have most of the histocial
information in your library, or you don't want to spend
$90 a pop to get the model of EBay.  Personally speaking I
can't afford to spend that $100 on something I already
have.
Do we still
follow Mont's excellent articles on kitbashing a Monon
1958 covered hopper using the MDC model as found in MM
1980-something?  Nope, because the MDC model was supplanted
by the Kato model, and then the Bowser model, and then the
Intermountain model.  If any article is valuable to you I
will not argue, but as your friend and fellow modeler I
think you would find that the book would be not as essential
as you thought, because you already have the information in
hand elsewhere (as I stated initially).  
In the meantime, this vocal minority
is wasting his time cobbling together the one-of-a-kind
Sunshine IC two-pocket hopper, RP Cyc in hand.  Not a bad
build but slow.  I hope to have it done for Naperville,
just in time for the all-new HO scale model to be announced
(no kidding).  
Hey,
where's Tim?
John
GoldenO'Fallon, IL











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Benjamin Hom
 

Arved Grass wrote:
"RP Cyc Volume 1 is available for $20.95, either directly from the publisher, or from dealers. I just got Volume 1 a couple weeks ago, and have fallen in love with the format. I can hardly wait to fill my library with these. And that's exactly what I paid - $20.95 plus postage. $100 may be the asking price, and "a fool and his money are soon parted," but I tend to doubt anyone looking for Volume 1 couldn't find it at a much more reasonable price than $100!"
 
Volume 1 had a huge printing compared to the other issues.  Ed and Pat were giving away copies to attendees at the first St. Louis Prototype Modelers meet!
 
 
Ben Hom


arved_grass
 

Not quite one peice. See previous post.

I need a lot of these cars for a "Coast Mail." They certainly are a lot easier to get than the old Ken Kidder cars, more accurate, but I think the rivet detail is a bit course (not as bad as MDC, but not as good as Archer Transfers).

A lot of "die-hard" modelers are still afraid of resin kits. My experience with the SC&F Harrimans has done little to encourage me. I've also noted that some accomplished modelers have their resin kits assembled professionally, which seems to further tarnish the reputation of how easy resin kits are to assemble. When I contacted SC&F with questions about fitting the doors, I was refered to Mike Brock, here, and a professional model builder.

I've got a couple F&C kits and a WrightTrak C-40-1 caboose kit waiting in my stash, but I'm not going to try those until I can get some experience with the SC&F kits.
------------------------
Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 8/24/14, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, August 24, 2014, 1:41 PM


 













yep. I recall how amazed I was when Southern Car &
Foundry came out
with

his magnificent Harriman cars, and then learning how few
were sold
(even

though they were fantastically perfect 1-piece bodies) even
to
supposedly

die-hard SP modelers.


I guess we're all 1 percenters! :-)







Clark
has nailed this one.

Take a look at Ebay. There are almost 1/2 million items
listed in the
model train section, of all scales and interests. How many
resin kits are
listed?

I've always maintained that we the self described
prototype modelers are
a tiny percentage of the masses who fiddle with model
trains.

You want more stuff? Get more people to buy it.


Pierre Oliver












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Andy Harman
 

At 10:03 AM 8/24/2014 -0500, you wrote:
Now which would had served the readers better, how to assemble another resin kit, or how to bring the Ribside Cars model as close to his standard as he could?
Well he made his call, as I would have. The whole concept of "service" is slippery to begin with. Most of us do what we want and need, to our own standards. If we document and submit it, maybe it becomes an article. But I'm not going to be influenced in writing an article, to compensate for a poor but available product if I have something better to work with.

Andy


Paul Koehler
 

Andy:

 

Well Stated.

 

Paul C. Koehler

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 10:02 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: The Ephemeral Nature of Modeling

 

 

At 10:03 AM 8/24/2014 -0500, you wrote:
>Now which would had served the readers better, how to assemble another
>resin kit, or how to bring the Ribside Cars model as close to his standard
>as he could?

Well he made his call, as I would have. The whole concept of "service" is
slippery to begin with. Most of us do what we want and need, to our own
standards. If we document and submit it, maybe it becomes an article. But
I'm not going to be influenced in writing an article, to compensate for a
poor but available product if I have something better to work with.

Andy


Andy Harman
 

At 06:34 PM 8/24/2014 +0000, you wrote:
the modeling is pretty dated at this point (and in fact, some was dated the day the book was published!
I recently found my name via search, intentional mis-spelling, and burning ears on a forum that I no longer participate in. The poster said my article (from 1999) was now "just a footnote in history" due to the release of a new model. Of course it's true, but I doubt if anybody actually built the thing I built using my techniques at the time anyway. But maybe somebody got some ideas to build something else. And the new model is actually better than the one I spent ~18 months building, which is very gratifying - the manufacturer really did their homework. And at the same time, the new RTR model does NOT make mine look sick either. I can line them up and it's pretty difficult to find any differences.

15 years of "relevancy" for a single modeling article probably isn't a record - there's one from 31 years ago that is still highly relevant due to half a dozen manufacturers completely failing to do better, but that may come to an end in the next 12 months. Anyway, none of this is a reason not to build a model or write an article. No regrets whatsoever. The main thing is I built something that was but a dream at the time, with the ego incentive and encouragement from Bill Schaumburg. Got a lot of mileage out of it, and probably will continue as my model runs with its four younger brothers on my present and future layout.

Andy