making bolted side trusses for a TT scale master
Benjamin Scanlon
Hullo all I’ve been tempting insanity by trying to make a master for a TT scale IC s/s boxcar, one of those rebuilt with 6’ door from auto cars to XM, and which therefore look to be missing a side truss. Pic here of one here, though I think I’ll go for a more orthodox door arrangement: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ic/ic11346jpa.jpg The problem is fabricating the side vertical and diagonal L trusses. I am able to make the vertical part of the L easily enough by cutting a channel for the vertical part of the truss to sit in, and MEK-ing in a piece of styrene strip at 90% to the side. However the horizontal part of the L truss, which has a succession of bolts, is causing real problems. I’m using a rivet tool to roll a line of ‘bolts’ into an Evergreen .010”sheet,, then cutting the horizontal strip and attempting to MEK in place. This is trial and mostly error; the MEK tends to melt the very thin styrene awful quick, even using the smallest brush and applying it very sparingly. And it causes accompanying surface crazing if the MEK runs. The smallest size of L girder I can find (Plastruct) doesn’t look much good in TT scale, and would need thinning down to have the bolts rolled into it. I’d need to make a jig for that and not sure how good it would look.
I’m thinking I may just do the horizontal part of the L trusses with paper with the bolts rolled into it and laminate to the side, but the paper might need sealing when I make the master (maybe grey primer would suffice). These days an answer might be to use Archer rivets. I’ve been looking at John Verser’s lovely TT Fowler boxcar and I am minutely examining that … it's a rather similar car, and he managed to do it so well. So, I wondered … how did the pros do it in the days before Archer rivets? Ben Scanlon Tottenham Hale,England
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Ben in the old days, a pro shaved rivets off an Athearn boxcar body and glued them on one at a time. Today they use Archer rivets. And they do not use MEK on very thin styrene for the reason you discovered, the plastic will melt. Instead use CA to avoid distortion of the thin styrene.
Doug Harding
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destorzek@...
Back when I was building patterns, I would lay in the side sheathing as individual strips, which allowed varying grain and slight variations of thickness, then set the side pattern up on a milling machine and mill slots through all the boards. The slots were wide enough to accept both the strips used for the vertical web of the "Z", and the flange that lay against the sheathing, and also deep enough that I could use .015" or .020" thick strip, leaving only .004"-.005" protruding past the surface of the boards. This also ensured that any unevenness of the surface of the boards didn't telegraph through the flange, and that any gaps between the boards wouldn't let the silicone RTV creep under the flange and trap it in the mold.
Dennis Storzek |
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Schleigh Mike
If you don't want to give up on embossing Ben---- Try using 0.005" styrene, emboss the rivets (bolts) on an oversized sheet, then slice to the desired strip width. Do use the ACC to avoid ACC attack. Your car of choice is interesting. Many were assigned to hide service in or before the 1950s. Sometime in or before the early 1960s they were renumbered into the assigned 34000 series for this glorious service. Happy
modeling---Mike On Thursday, September 18, 2014 8:16 AM, "destorzek@... [STMFC]" wrote: Back when I was building patterns, I would lay in the side sheathing as individual strips, which allowed varying grain and slight variations of thickness, then set the side pattern up on a milling machine and mill slots through all the boards. The slots were wide enough to accept both the strips used for the vertical web of the "Z", and the flange that lay against the sheathing, and also deep enough that I could use .015" or .020" thick strip, leaving only .004"-.005" protruding past the surface of the boards. This also ensured that any unevenness of the surface of the boards didn't telegraph through the flange, and that any gaps between the boards wouldn't let the silicone RTV creep under the flange and trap it in the mold.
Dennis Storzek |
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Benjamin Scanlon
Thanks for the tips gentlemen. What does 'Do use the ACC to avoid ACC attack.' mean though?
I'm thinking of going for Testors liquid cement ang giving up on the MEK/Plastruct weld family entirely for detail work. If there are pitfalls with the Testors product it might be good to know.
I like the IC car because I've always been drawn to Fowler and similar cars and I like oddities. Got a CGW 1923 ARA car in the works too; another 'one railroad only' car that's distinctive.
If anyone has a candidate for an early NYC (or subsidiaries) steel boxcar, that might have been used in grain service in the 60s, I'd like to model something unusual in that line too.
Ben Scanlon |
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Benjamin Hom
Ben Scanlon asked:
"Thanks for the tips gentlemen. What does 'Do use the ACC to avoid ACC attack.' mean though?" It's a typo. It should read "Use ACC to avoid solvent attack." Solvent cements will eat through thin styrene. Ben Hom |
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jon miller <atsfus@...>
On 9/18/2014 8:25 AM,
benjaminscanlon@... [STMFC] wrote:
I'm thinking of going for Testors liquid cement ang giving up on the MEK/Plastruct weld family entirely for detail work. Last time I looked Testors was MEK with a few other things in it. I think "other things" to make it slower drying. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Jon Miller wrote
> Last time I looked Testors was MEK with a few other things in it. > I think "other things" to make it slower drying If you want pure MEK just buy it at Home Depot. All of the commercial plastic adhesives (including Tenax) are mixtures. Testors and Plastruct contain additives that help with butyl rubber bonds found in ABS. The original Plastruct parts (before they started making simple polystyrene parts) were ABS and adhesives like Tenax and solvents like MEK have very weak effects on them. I use Testors on Branchline, Tenax on Tichy and Intermountain, and so on... The right tool for each job! :-) Tim O' |
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Curt Fortenberry
Another tip to keep embossed rivets from melting, is to fill the back with filler putty and sand smooth. That way the solvent won't mess things. Curt Fortenberry |
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destorzek@...
Actually, when I was building patterns, I preferred straight MEK for bonding Evergreen styrene. MEK evaporates so quickly that it was gone before it had time to soak deeply into the sheet or strip, only softening the very surface, which is where the bond is made. The various commercial solvent cements are a mix of slower evaporating solvents that allow it to soak in deeply, softening the part over time.
I believe the recipe for Tenax and Plastruct include solvents that are effective for bonding the acrylic component in ABS. Years ago it was likely methylene chloride, but probably not any more. I used to build patterns on thick cast acrylic sheet bases, and MEK would hardly touch the stuff. I'd use Tenax to bond a thin sheet of styrene to the cast acrylic, then go with MEK from there. Dennis Storzek |
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arved_grass
I suggest giving Tamiya "Super Thin" cement a try.
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------------------------ Arved Grass Fleming Island, Florida -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9/18/14, benjaminscanlon@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: making bolted side trusses for a TT scale master To: STMFC@... Date: Thursday, September 18, 2014, 11:25 AM Thanks for the tips gentlemen. What does 'Do use the ACC to avoid ACC attack.' mean though? I'm thinking of going for Testors liquid cement ang giving up on the MEK/Plastruct weld family entirely for detail work. If there are pitfalls with the Testors product it might be good to know. I like the IC car because I've always been drawn to Fowler and similar cars and I like oddities. Got a CGW 1923 ARA car in the works too; another 'one railroad only' car that's distinctive. If anyone has a candidate for an early NYC (or subsidiaries) steel boxcar, that might have been used in grain service in the 60s, I'd like to model something unusual in that line too. Ben Scanlon |
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Benjamin Scanlon
Thank you Arved, I will have a look at that, if it's available in the UK.
If possible, I'd like to try to get away from the MEK type solvents as much as I can, because I've tried so many yet never really gotten a good result with detail work. ACC or CA (assuming the same thing on different sides of the Atlantic) doen't give you much room for error either. Most things I make I would like cast (TT not exactly being awash with rolling stock) so structural strength may not matter so much as the car side is going to be a master, and not going to be handled or have that much wear and tear. Ben Scanlon Tottenham Hale, England |
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Benjamin Scanlon
Your car of choice is interesting. Many were assigned to hide service in or before the 1950s. Sometime in or before the early 1960s they were renumbered into the assigned 34000 series for this glorious service. Happy modeling---Mike Mike and all I wanted this IC composite box more for grain service but it sounds like for the 1960s it would not have been found in that service anymore? AFAIK, hides duty was the last thing a car did before scrapping. *** I've taken into account suggestions here for solvents to make a master and am getting much better results with a solvent sold here in the UK called 'DL Limonene solvent'. Not sure if there's a US equivalent. Smells distinctively of citrus, unsurprisingly. As it evaporates slowly, you use less so there's far less chance of melting small parts, yet it is kinder to bolt and rivet indentations on plastic straps, which owing to the parts' small size in TT scale, aren't easy to fill with putty. So far, I'm far more happy with Limonene's results than Plastruct Weld, though I am still using PW where a strong bond is needed and where it won't damage the styrene surface , for example, paper strapping with indented rivets where I can 'flood' the paper strap from above, to secure it in place. Regards, Ben Scanlon Tottenham Hale, England |
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Ray Breyer
I wanted this IC composite box more for grain service but it sounds like for the 1960s it Hi Ben, A VERY few of the cars you're interested in did last into the late 1970s, but in sanitary sludge service in Chicago, not in hide service. Here's a quick rundown of the cars: 154701-160000, built 1923-1926 by ACF, Western Steel, Standard Steel, and Pullman. Cars downgraded to plain boxcars, and their half doors removed, 1934-1937. Cars renumbered to 10000-15488 between 1944-1946. "Special Use" (sludge) service cars established in the 34900-34964 number series. 10 cars converted to roofless coke cars and reassigned to the C&IW as 2015-2024, 1953. 1945: 5086 cars 1950: 4579 cars, plus 65 in sludge service 1955: 2897 cars, plus 69 cars in sludge service 1959: 347 cars, plus 77 cars in sludge service 1963 (the last year I have on hand): 33 cars, plus 9 in sludge service. I actually do remember these single sheathed cars (and the smell!) on the IC, shuttling around the Stickney area. Besides a few Soo cars surviving to about 1980 0in occasional grain rush service, they're the only single sheathed cars I actually remember seeing outside of MOW service or museums. (the hide cars were, in the 1960s and early 1970s, 50' single sheathed cars in the 38000 and 34990 number series.) Regards, Ray Breyer Elgin, IL |
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Schleigh Mike
Regarding the IC 10000-15488 SS former 1-1/2 door 40 foot
cars, Ray Breyer wrote, " the hide cars were, in the 1960s and early 1970s, 50' single sheathed cars in the 38000 and 34990 number series ". This is certainly true for the 50 foot cars but there were also 40 foot, former 10000 series cars in the 34XXX world. Pls forgive this visit to the July 1966 ORER. Forty foot cars in the 34600-34619 (12 cars) and 34759-34849 (14 cars) series are listed in hide service. Other 34XXX cars were also in "fish meal" service. Apparently the 34XXX series boxcars were all in sorts of smelly service. Back to the 40 foot cars in hide service, the following cars have been identified by waybill and yard reports in hide service.----12273 loaded in Chicago, 6-8-56; 14573, loaded in Waterloo, Ia, 6-15-56; 34801 loaded in Rockford, Il, 4-5-63. In addition, I have seen in photo backgrounds many of these distinctive 40 foot cars visiting the B&O before the WAG in northern
Pennsylvania. Three large tanneries received these cars routinely. The 40 foot cars were certainly in hide service in both the 1950s and 1960s. Best regards, Mike Schleigh |
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Benjamin Scanlon
Thanks Ray. The late date would commend them as a choice of prototype, although appeal may be limited ... so far as I know, they were an IC design, but did anyone else buy them? Were there externally visible modifications for sludge service? What were the SOO cars that lasted till that date? They sound like good candidates for a model too. I've seen occasional shots of Frisco and Georgia s/s boxcars in the 70s too, albeit with steel sheet having replaced the composite side. Regards Ben Scanlon Tottenham Hale, England |
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caboose9792@aol.com <caboose9792@...>
My lettering diagram prints for the sludge service cars show no external modifactions outside of the assinment marks. The digrams are avalable from thje irm pullman libary. Im at work eating lunch so i cant look it up or give an index number.
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mark rickert Sent with Verizon Mobile Email ---Original Message---
From: STMFC@... Sent: 9/26/2014 1:43 am To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: making bolted side trusses for a TT scale master Thanks Ray. The late date would commend them as a choice of prototype, although appeal may be limited ... so far as I know, they were an IC design, but did anyone else buy them? Were there externally visible modifications for sludge service? What were the SOO cars that lasted till that date? They sound like good candidates for a model too. I've seen occasional shots of Frisco and Georgia s/s boxcars in the 70s too, albeit with steel sheet having replaced the composite side. Regards Ben Scanlon Tottenham Hale, England |
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caboose9792@...
Ok it took longer to get back to the project than I expected...
print IC-H143 which should be available from IRM's Pullman library. The
original is scaled 3/4" = 1'
oldest dates on print date from 1934 and newest from 1954. Ex.
175100-175299 series, 15875-15999.
In 1954 That class was al TC&I 1924 cars built in B'ham all were gone
from the diagram books by 1964. With one block of 40 foot cars the hide service
was all 50' cars.
Mark Rickert
In a message dated 9/26/2014 2:07:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
STMFC@... writes:
My lettering diagram prints for the sludge service cars show no external modifactions outside of the assinment marks. The digrams are avalable from thje irm pullman libary. Im at work eating lunch so i cant look it up or give an index number. |
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