Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)


Gary Roe
 

Elden,

Any chance we could get you to expand on the comment "literally dozens of users"?  There are no steel mills on my railroad; but I sure would like to have a reason to buy one or two of these new cars.

Thanks!

gary roe
quincy, illinois


From: "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:33 AM
Subject: FW: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I am very excited that we are finally going to get an acid tank car. I have been waiting it seems forever to get a car like this. It is one of those cars you need even if you think you didn't; I have found literally dozens of users I didn't know about.

One of the widespread uses for these was shipping hydrochloric and sulfuric acids used in pickling or etching foundry and steel mill plants products, as well as things like sheet stock. When semi-finished or finished steel was sent out of the plant, it generally went through an acid bath to make further treatment more effective, to give "teeth" to treatment products, or simply to give it more environmental resistance.

I shared a love of tank cars with Richard Hendrickson, and we swapped info and photos on a number of the less well-known classes, like these. This is one we both wanted to see at some point, and now we got one; and it is a beauty. I have been drooling over the various schemes being offered.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE





Schleigh Mike
 

Other Acid Tank Car Uses---

     Delivering acid to tanneries found throughout much of the northeast.

     Paper mills needed acids and sent their waste acid off to other purposes.

     Many other metal preparation processes needed acid and produced it for others.  Zinc refining in eastern Pennsylvania is an example but surely others abound.

Regards----Mike


On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:03 AM, "gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Elden,

Any chance we could get you to expand on the comment "literally dozens of users"?  There are no steel mills on my railroad; but I sure would like to have a reason to buy one or two of these new cars.

Thanks!

gary roe
quincy, illinois


From: "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:33 AM
Subject: FW: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I am very excited that we are finally going to get an acid tank car. I have been waiting it seems forever to get a car like this. It is one of those cars you need even if you think you didn't; I have found literally dozens of users I didn't know about.

One of the widespread uses for these was shipping hydrochloric and sulfuric acids used in pickling or etching foundry and steel mill plants products, as well as things like sheet stock. When semi-finished or finished steel was sent out of the plant, it generally went through an acid bath to make further treatment more effective, to give "teeth" to treatment products, or simply to give it more environmental resistance.

I shared a love of tank cars with Richard Hendrickson, and we swapped info and photos on a number of the less well-known classes, like these. This is one we both wanted to see at some point, and now we got one; and it is a beauty. I have been drooling over the various schemes being offered.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE







Scott Kremer
 

Most power plants also require acid and caustic for water treatment. I imagine water facilities for the public do as well.

Scott Kremer

On Nov 13, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Schleigh Mike mike_schleigh@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Douglas Harding
 

To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? I am aware of the chemical coast of Texas, but what were other areas where acid cars might be loaded. I could see a couple of acid cars simply being “pass though cars”, ie traveling from loading point, ie the chemical coast of Texas to the user, ie a paper mill up north or tannery out east.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Other Acid Tank Car Uses---

 

     Delivering acid to tanneries found throughout much of the northeast.

 

     Paper mills needed acids and sent their waste acid off to other purposes.

 

     Many other metal preparation processes needed acid and produced it for others.  Zinc refining in eastern Pennsylvania is an example but surely others abound.

 

Regards----Mike

 

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:03 AM, "gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

Elden,

 

Any chance we could get you to expand on the comment "literally dozens of users"?  There are no steel mills on my railroad; but I sure would like to have a reason to buy one or two of these new cars.

 

Thanks!

 

gary roe

quincy, illinois

 


From: "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:33 AM
Subject: FW: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I am very excited that we are finally going to get an acid tank car. I have been waiting it seems forever to get a car like this. It is one of those cars you need even if you think you didn't; I have found literally dozens of users I didn't know about.

One of the widespread uses for these was shipping hydrochloric and sulfuric acids used in pickling or etching foundry and steel mill plants products, as well as things like sheet stock. When semi-finished or finished steel was sent out of the plant, it generally went through an acid bath to make further treatment more effective, to give "teeth" to treatment products, or simply to give it more environmental resistance.

I shared a love of tank cars with Richard Hendrickson, and we swapped info and photos on a number of the less well-known classes, like these. This is one we both wanted to see at some point, and now we got one; and it is a beauty. I have been drooling over the various schemes being offered.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

 

 


Brian Carlson
 

There were many chemical plants making acid and other chemicals in the Niagara Falls area due to the abundance of cheap power and water.

Brian Carlson. 


On Nov 13, 2014, at 11:07 AM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? I am aware of the chemical coast of Texas, but what were other areas where acid cars might be loaded. I could see a couple of acid cars simply being “pass though cars”, ie traveling from loading point, ie the chemical coast of Texas to the user, ie a paper mill up north or tannery out east.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Other Acid Tank Car Uses---

 

     Delivering acid to tanneries found throughout much of the northeast.

 

     Paper mills needed acids and sent their waste acid off to other purposes.

 

     Many other metal preparation processes needed acid and produced it for others.  Zinc refining in eastern Pennsylvania is an example but surely others abound.

 

Regards----Mike

 

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:03 AM, "gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

Elden,

 

Any chance we could get you to expand on the comment "literally dozens of users"?  There are no steel mills on my railroad; but I sure would like to have a reason to buy one or two of these new cars.

 

Thanks!

 

gary roe

quincy, illinois

 


From: "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:33 AM
Subject: FW: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I am very excited that we are finally going to get an acid tank car. I have been waiting it seems forever to get a car like this. It is one of those cars you need even if you think you didn't; I have found literally dozens of users I didn't know about.

One of the widespread uses for these was shipping hydrochloric and sulfuric acids used in pickling or etching foundry and steel mill plants products, as well as things like sheet stock. When semi-finished or finished steel was sent out of the plant, it generally went through an acid bath to make further treatment more effective, to give "teeth" to treatment products, or simply to give it more environmental resistance.

I shared a love of tank cars with Richard Hendrickson, and we swapped info and photos on a number of the less well-known classes, like these. This is one we both wanted to see at some point, and now we got one; and it is a beauty. I have been drooling over the various schemes being offered.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

 

 


O Fenton Wells
 

Guys, this is just a guess but I know that the Kanawa river area,  Charleston and up and down the river in WV must have produced acids, I know that was part of my territory during the early 1980's and that river had a zillion chemical plants and the air was rank at times, also in the Nitro area at least once a year some plant would release some chemical by mistake and people could get their cars repainted. I used to stay at the Ramada Inn in South Charleston off I-64 right on the C&O main and there was a small flat yard there where many tank cars were switched.  I don't know my tanks that well but I'll bet some carried acid. The lady at the front desk of the Ramada was checking out some gentlemen one morning and they were complaining about the smell and she replied "What's the matter honey, don't you like the smell of money?"
It was an interesting place, i sold things that controlled chemical processes and there in Charleston is a duplicate of the Union Carbide Bohpal India plant that blew up.  We sold controls for the cracking towers.  Lots of fun.
fenton wells

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:07 AM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? I am aware of the chemical coast of Texas, but what were other areas where acid cars might be loaded. I could see a couple of acid cars simply being “pass though cars”, ie traveling from loading point, ie the chemical coast of Texas to the user, ie a paper mill up north or tannery out east.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Other Acid Tank Car Uses---

 

     Delivering acid to tanneries found throughout much of the northeast.

 

     Paper mills needed acids and sent their waste acid off to other purposes.

 

     Many other metal preparation processes needed acid and produced it for others.  Zinc refining in eastern Pennsylvania is an example but surely others abound.

 

Regards----Mike

 

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:03 AM, "gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

Elden,

 

Any chance we could get you to expand on the comment "literally dozens of users"?  There are no steel mills on my railroad; but I sure would like to have a reason to buy one or two of these new cars.

 

Thanks!

 

gary roe

quincy, illinois

 


From: "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:33 AM
Subject: FW: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I am very excited that we are finally going to get an acid tank car. I have been waiting it seems forever to get a car like this. It is one of those cars you need even if you think you didn't; I have found literally dozens of users I didn't know about.

One of the widespread uses for these was shipping hydrochloric and sulfuric acids used in pickling or etching foundry and steel mill plants products, as well as things like sheet stock. When semi-finished or finished steel was sent out of the plant, it generally went through an acid bath to make further treatment more effective, to give "teeth" to treatment products, or simply to give it more environmental resistance.

I shared a love of tank cars with Richard Hendrickson, and we swapped info and photos on a number of the less well-known classes, like these. This is one we both wanted to see at some point, and now we got one; and it is a beauty. I have been drooling over the various schemes being offered.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

 

 




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Charles Peck
 

Copper Hill TN on the L&N produced sulfuric acid from smelting copper..
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:07 AM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? I am aware of the chemical coast of Texas, but what were other areas where acid cars might be loaded. I could see a couple of acid cars simply being “pass though cars”, ie traveling from loading point, ie the chemical coast of Texas to the user, ie a paper mill up north or tannery out east.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:54 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Other Acid Tank Car Uses---

 

     Delivering acid to tanneries found throughout much of the northeast.

 

     Paper mills needed acids and sent their waste acid off to other purposes.

 

     Many other metal preparation processes needed acid and produced it for others.  Zinc refining in eastern Pennsylvania is an example but surely others abound.

 

Regards----Mike

 

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:03 AM, "gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

Elden,

 

Any chance we could get you to expand on the comment "literally dozens of users"?  There are no steel mills on my railroad; but I sure would like to have a reason to buy one or two of these new cars.

 

Thanks!

 

gary roe

quincy, illinois

 


From: "'Gatwood, Elden SAW' elden.j.gatwood@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 7:33 AM
Subject: FW: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I am very excited that we are finally going to get an acid tank car. I have been waiting it seems forever to get a car like this. It is one of those cars you need even if you think you didn't; I have found literally dozens of users I didn't know about.

One of the widespread uses for these was shipping hydrochloric and sulfuric acids used in pickling or etching foundry and steel mill plants products, as well as things like sheet stock. When semi-finished or finished steel was sent out of the plant, it generally went through an acid bath to make further treatment more effective, to give "teeth" to treatment products, or simply to give it more environmental resistance.

I shared a love of tank cars with Richard Hendrickson, and we swapped info and photos on a number of the less well-known classes, like these. This is one we both wanted to see at some point, and now we got one; and it is a beauty. I have been drooling over the various schemes being offered.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

 

 



pennsylvania1954
 

More Other Acid Tank Car Uses--In the mid-50's the GLF fertilizer plant which my Dad managed was converted to produce granular products. This included, among a bunch of other stuff, an outside storage tank for sulfuric acid. The tank was adjacent to the ammonia tank and was serviced by rail.

This was in Englishtown, NJ, on a branch of the Pennsylavania. I am not sure when the conversion was completed but it was well before early 1957 when we moved.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



Carl Gustafson
 

Well, Stauffer Chemical Company (a former employer of mine) was big in phosphorus chemicals. They
owned several phosphate mines. In the 70s, they made phosphoric acid for fertilizer use by cooking up
phosphate ore with sulfuric acid. This would have been done near the mines. I believe they had mines
or phosphorus furnace plants in Utah (Leafe?), Montana (furnace plant in Silver Bow IIRC, probably
near the phosphorus source), and Florida (Tarpon Springs). There was a furnace plant in Mount
Pleasant, Tennessee. Also, they made phosphoric acid for internal use as well, by burning phosphorus.
They may have sold this acid also, but I don't know.

Fertilizer grade acid was ugly looking stuff (except for the Leafe acid - it was an attractive green
color). I worked (as a pilot-plant technician) on a project to purify the fertilizer grade acid into
food grade stuff. We did get a tank car, but I wasn't paying attention to such important matters then.
I did have to go on top once, open the hatch on the dome, and sample the acid. I don't remember how we
hooked it up to feed the pilot plant that was built.

Anyway, perhaps that's what Stauffer shipped in their cars (and Tangent is doing some painted up for
Stauffer, so I'll have to find some cash to get one or two). If so, you'd find them at fertilizer
plants.

Stauffer was also big in chlor-alkalai chemicals. Perhaps they also sold hydrochloric acid.

Carl Gustafson


jeralbin@...
 

To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? 

 The Swift fertilizer plant in Calumet City, IL made sulfuric acid. The Pennsylvania Salt Mfg. Co. made hydrochloric acid and ferric chloride in Wyandotte MI, Natrona, PA and Tacoma, WA. They both shipped by tank car. Regards...Jerry Albin


Carl Gustafson
 

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 01:22:41PM -0800, jeralbin@... [STMFC] wrote:
To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced?
Sulfuric acid is a by-product of oil (and gas) refining. The hydrogen sulfide was captured and
converted to sulfur or sulfuric acid. Stauffer had a proprietary technology for this.

Back in the time these cars would have been at-large, the demand for sulfuric acid could be satisfied
this way, or possibly by burning a little sulfur, too. Now, most phosphoric acid is made via a wet
process, instead of by thermal processes, and sulfuric acid needs to be imported by the tanker load.

Carl Gustafson


John F. Cizmar
 

If Swift shipped the acid, which of these tanks cars would be the best candidate to model the outbound shipments?
John Cizmar   

From: "jeralbin@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 
To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? 

 The Swift fertilizer plant in Calumet City, IL made sulfuric acid. The Pennsylvania Salt Mfg. Co. made hydrochloric acid and ferric chloride in Wyandotte MI, Natrona, PA and Tacoma, WA. They both shipped by tank car. Regards...Jerry Albin



John F. Cizmar
 

 
If Swift shipped the acid, which of these tanks cars would be the best candidate to model the outbound shipments?
John Cizmar
 
let me correct my earlier question.
 
If Swift were to ship the acid from their Calumet City, Il plant, which of the modeled paint schemes would be the most likely candidate?
From: "jeralbin@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car (UNCLASSIFIED)

 
To follow up on Gary’s question: where was acid produced? 

 The Swift fertilizer plant in Calumet City, IL made sulfuric acid. The Pennsylvania Salt Mfg. Co. made hydrochloric acid and ferric chloride in Wyandotte MI, Natrona, PA and Tacoma, WA. They both shipped by tank car. Regards...Jerry Albin



Tangent Scale Models
 

---In STMFC@..., <cgustafs@...> wrote :

<<Well, Stauffer Chemical Company (a former employer of mine) was big in phosphorus chemicals. They
owned several phosphate mines. In the 70s, they made phosphoric acid for fertilizer use by cooking up
phosphate ore with sulfuric acid. This would have been done near the mines. I believe they had mines
or phosphorus furnace plants in Utah (Leafe?), Montana (furnace plant in Silver Bow IIRC, probably
near the phosphorus source), and Florida (Tarpon Springs). There was a furnace plant in Mount
Pleasant, Tennessee. Also, they made phosphoric acid for internal use as well, by burning phosphorus.
They may have sold this acid also, but I don't know.<<

Carl, I was told by a former rail employee at Trainfest last weekend that Stauffer also shipped a significant amount of phosphoric acid from Chicago Heights IL.  They had a facility that processed the bonesacquired  from livestock slaughtered in South Chicago, and the phosphoric acid was shipped all over the US from there.  Do you recall that to be true?

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


Carl Gustafson
 

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 12:25:39PM -0800, tangentscalemodels@... [STMFC] wrote:
Carl, I was told by a former rail employee at Trainfest last weekend that Stauffer also shipped a significant amount of phosphoric acid from Chicago Heights IL. They had a facility that processed the bonesacquired from livestock slaughtered in South Chicago, and the phosphoric acid was shipped all over the US from there. Do you recall that to be true?
Dave,

Chicago Heights was one of the plants that came from Victor Chemical. They made inorganic phosphates
there (and a few organics). I believe that they got tank cars of phosphorus in, and made phosphoric
acid to use in generating sodium, calcium and ammonium phosphate. I wouldn't be surprised to know
that they shipped food-grade phosphoric acid; I don't know first hand, but it's very likely.

I was in the plant only twice, working on calcium phosphate projects. (I worked in the research center
in New York.)

Carl Gustafson


Carl Gustafson
 

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 03:50:26PM -0500, Carl Gustafson cgustafs@... [STMFC] wrote:
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 12:25:39PM -0800, tangentscalemodels@... [STMFC] wrote:
Carl, I was told by a former rail employee at Trainfest last weekend that Stauffer also shipped a significant amount of phosphoric acid from Chicago Heights IL. They had a facility that processed the bonesacquired from livestock slaughtered in South Chicago, and the phosphoric acid was shipped all over the US from there. Do you recall that to be true?
I didn't answer the question fully - I never heard of Chicago Heights processing bones, but I didn't
have much knowledge of the plant's total operations. More likely *if they did process bones* they'd
just bake off the organic matter, and sell the calcium phosphate, i.e. bone meal. To make acid from that,
you'd have to cook it up with sulfuric acid (just like they would do with phosphate ore), but then
you'd have to purify it if you wanted to sell a pure product. But again, I don't really know.

Carl Gustafson