we all know hoppers dont travel right?


Todd Horton
 

Somewhere In my collection of books is a picture of a UP hopper on the PRR in hard coal territory. That is one that I would have never guessed to see.  Todd Horton

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 7:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 

 


Is that also called metallurgical coal? I know that "met coal" off the Southern
was shipped as far as Colorado & Utah -- Southern Railway hoppers in Pueblo CO were
not at all unusual in the 1960's and such cars were a common sight in Provo UT in
the 1980's-2000's (the only times I visited that area)

Tim O'Connor

>And blacksmiths tell me that Pocahontas coal is preferred for forges by many in the trade.
>Another reason to have the odd off-road hopper going around, although some small forges bought
>bagged Pocahontas.
>Chuck Peck in Gainesville


Brian Carlson
 

Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in again!

 

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 

 

Somewhere In my collection of books is a picture of a UP hopper on the PRR in hard coal territory. That is one that I would have never guessed to see.  Todd Horton

 


Mikebrock
 

Brian Carlson writes:

"Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in again!"

Ah, but Brian...anything to expand our knowledge base. BTW, one sighting that has always puzzled me...for lack of confirmation...was that produced by the late Ross Grenard. Ross was a well known author of narrow gauge Colorado RR's AND the UP. He apparenly rode the only pre 3985 UP steam excursion pulled by a Challenger [ 3967 I think ] during the '50's. Anyhow, incredibly [ by today's standards ], the UP stopped the train up on Sherman Hill and let riders off to watch UP trains roll by. According to Ross, one of those trains consisted entirely of Pennsy hopper cars carrying coal...presumably because of a coal strike on UP served mines or a threat of one. I knew Ross well enough to have faith in what he said. And, no, I have not assembled a long train of Pennsy hopper cars that I run every 18,000 trains I run [ see below ]. One thing that we might overlook when we discuss these sometimes bizarre sightings is the sheer numbers. Apparently the Grenard sighting was a one time occurrence [ but, actually, who knows? ]. If so, during 1957 when the excursion occurred [ I think ], there were about 18,000 trains moving over the Hill. Even the fanatical UP photographers weren't there for all 18,000...were they?

BTW, I have to say that there was another excursion in which the RR let people wander around the tracks with no supervision. I watched Ex N&W 611 come up Saluda with people all over the place. The operation was not a run by as such because they certainly did not stop to let people off.

Mike Brock


devansprr
 

Mike,

You are raising a valid concern about car movements based on photos.

I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual.

Naturally it is hard to determine the intent of the photographer 70+ years later. I am coming to the position that photos of rolling stock out on the road that document just a few cars are likely because they were an unusual sight. Conversely, broader shots may be more of a railfan shot not focused on individual cars, but even then the representation can be quite biased based on a freight train's origin, destination, and blocking.

Case on point, if someone had told you that they saw 100 PRR hoppers west bound on Sherman Hill over the period of the day, you may need to buy some. But given that they were in one train - never-mind. We have an equivalent problem on the PRR - people claim that solid trains of Virginian coal hoppers, including the 100-ton cars with 6 wheel trucks, were spotted on the PRR main during WWII. Was that a regular event? Based on some WWII transportation histories, it may have happened a few times because a lot of Pocahontas coal was shipped by rail to New England during WWII. Most of it ran up the NE corridor to NY harbor, where it could be barged up the coast - but some did make the entire trip by rail, and there were times when the NE corridor was too congested, so routes further west were used - infrequently. Should I buy a full train of Virginian hoppers - no, although the purchase would be more justified than you buying a train of PRR hoppers...)

The latest discovery for me that clearly discounts photographs was from a 1945 PRR Pittsburgh division traffic study that details every train for a day. There are LOTs of pre-war, and even some WWII photos of steam on that division, many of WB trains heading up the "east slope" that includes horseshoe curve. From all the published photos, one would expect nearly all trains were double-headed, with another pair of locomotives pushing. Yet every one of the 58 WB freights cresting the summit that day were single headed. All had pushers - based on tonnages the vast majority would have been two pushers, which does match the photos...

Makes one wonder if photographers of that era (especially railfans, compared to people like Delano), with a limited supply of expensive film, photographed the exceptional.

While film in the digital age is free, scanning YouTube videos of modern railroading exhibits a similar tendency (one might think that fully 1/4 of the NS diesel fleet are heritage units...).

Inferences derived from old railfan photos really need to be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism..

(and so much for double headed steam on the curve ;-(

And the lack of NYCentral box cars in WB PRR freights over that same division does not mean WB NYCentral traffic was intentionally routed over other RR's - it is because over 2/3rds of WB non-hopper cars on that division were empty, and why would the PRR, east of Harrisburg, route an MTY NYCentral car to the west?

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :

Brian Carlson writes:

"Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a
comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to
find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype
Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in
again!"

Ah, but Brian...anything to expand our knowledge base. BTW, one sighting
that has always puzzled me...for lack of confirmation...was that produced by
the late Ross Grenard. Ross was a well known author of narrow gauge Colorado
RR's AND the UP. He apparenly rode the only pre 3985 UP steam excursion
pulled by a Challenger [ 3967 I think ] during the '50's. Anyhow, incredibly
[ by today's standards ], the UP stopped the train up on Sherman Hill and
let riders off to watch UP trains roll by. According to Ross, one of those
trains consisted entirely of Pennsy hopper cars carrying coal...presumably
because of a coal strike on UP served mines or a threat of one. I knew Ross
well enough to have faith in what he said. And, no, I have not assembled a
long train of Pennsy hopper cars that I run every 18,000 trains I run [ see
below ]. One thing that we might overlook when we discuss these sometimes
bizarre sightings is the sheer numbers. Apparently the Grenard sighting was
a one time occurrence [ but, actually, who knows? ]. If so, during 1957 when
the excursion occurred [ I think ], there were about 18,000 trains moving
over the Hill. Even the fanatical UP photographers weren't there for all
18,000...were they?

BTW, I have to say that there was another excursion in which the RR let
people wander around the tracks with no supervision. I watched Ex N&W 611
come up Saluda with people all over the place. The operation was not a run
by as such because they certainly did not stop to let people off.

Mike Brock


Mikebrock
 

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected, the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [ unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt Pentrex.

Mike Brock


Tony Thompson
 

      It's long been claimed (usually by those who don't like the results) that photography is untrustworthy because photographers preferred the unusual. I think this is far too broad a generalization about photographers. For one thing, many were really photographing locomotives, and whatever cars we see in the trains in those images were NOT selected by that photographer in most cases. Further, many people (Will Whittaker, Chet McCoid and George Sisk come to mind) liked to photograph all kinds of freight cars when they got a good shot at one. Will once told me that he liked to get a nice, well-lit shot of ANY freight car, and his photos confirm that MANY were everyday, dirty, ordinary freight cars. The same is true of McCoid.
       Of course photos have limitations as data, because so few cars are in any one shot. But that doesn't make that little data sample wrong, just one which has to be used cautiously. One might wish that more of us were cautious with all kinds of data.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Armand Premo
 


While a movie of a single train,on a given day may be of some value.There are too many variables involved  in detemining such things as car count or regular consists.This has been discussed before on this list.Let us think of some of the variables:A specific train during different time of the year,Other trains on the same road may vary widely from the train previously mentioned by our esteem leader.Wheel reports and company records would be much more valuable in determ[ing  the cars a typical train.Unless you plan to run the same cars over and over.Armand Premo Fire away

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not
an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use
their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some
validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we
modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for
TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power
and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected,
the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [
unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes
every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt
Pentrex.

Mike Brock


devansprr
 

Mike,

Now I am very jealous - to my knowledge there are very few known WWII era freight train consists for PRR Pittsburgh Division, nor movies of entire freight trains.

And I am very reluctant to infer much from the very few WWII photographs that exist after thinking for years that I needed enough steam engines to double-head every freight... Especially after all of the well documented summary statistics about record traffic levels.

Sigh...
Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not
an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use
their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some
validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we
modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for
TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power
and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected,
the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [
unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes
every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt
Pentrex.

Mike Brock


Mikebrock
 

Armand Premo says:

"While a movie of a single train,on a given day may be of some value.There are too many variables involved in detemining such things as car count or regular consists."

Well, from studying my Fraley Frt Conductor's book, I would say that "regular consists" [ not certain exactly what that means ] probably doesn't apply to UP's Sherman Hill since there are a significant variety of different types of trains [ as identified by consist ]. IOW, there are reefer blocks, coal drags, lumber trains, tank car trains, ballast trains, ore trains, general merchandise trains, and MT car trains often with the same type of cars as the loaded trains. A movie of a complete train is just one more data sample.

Mike Brock


Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Other than home road hoppers, what roads would be appropriate on NYC rails in western Michigan, circa 1952? And would there be a distinction between loads to an electric generating plant, to a coaling tower, and to a coal yard for domestic use? Would 70 ton hoppers be more or less appropriate to any of these destinations?
  • PRR
  • B&O
  • C&O
  • N&W
  • VGN
  • Monon
  • C&EI
  • Wabash
  • IC
  • CB&Q
  • MP
Thanks in advance.

Alex Schneider

From: "'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Brian Carlson writes:

"Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a
comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to
find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype
Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in
again!"

Ah, but Brian...anything to expand our knowledge base. BTW, one sighting
that has always puzzled me...for lack of confirmation...was that produced by
the late Ross Grenard. Ross was a well known author of narrow gauge Colorado
RR's AND the UP. He apparenly rode the only pre 3985 UP steam excursion
pulled by a Challenger [ 3967 I think ] during the '50's. Anyhow, incredibly
[ by today's standards ], the UP stopped the train up on Sherman Hill and
let riders off to watch UP trains roll by. According to Ross, one of those
trains consisted entirely of Pennsy hopper cars carrying coal...presumably
because of a coal strike on UP served mines or a threat of one. I knew Ross
well enough to have faith in what he said. And, no, I have not assembled a
long train of Pennsy hopper cars that I run every 18,000 trains I run [ see
below ]. One thing that we might overlook when we discuss these sometimes
bizarre sightings is the sheer numbers. Apparently the Grenard sighting was
a one time occurrence [ but, actually, who knows? ]. If so, during 1957 when
the excursion occurred [ I think ], there were about 18,000 trains moving
over the Hill. Even the fanatical UP photographers weren't there for all
18,000...were they?

BTW, I have to say that there was another excursion in which the RR let
people wander around the tracks with no supervision. I watched Ex N&W 611
come up Saluda with people all over the place. The operation was not a run
by as such because they certainly did not stop to let people off.

Mike Brock





------------------------------------
Posted by: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    STMFC-digest@...
    STMFC-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    STMFC-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
    https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/




Edward
 

Back when coal was a primary fuel for heating and manufacturing, the type of coal was very important for the end consumer.

Anthracite was the coal of choice for home heating. Also small bakeries that had coal; fired hearth ovens. Schools also used anthracite for their steam  heat boilers as did apartment houses.  Oil as a fuel was also used but for WW II many home owners and apartment houses had to refit their oil burning furnaces for coal.  Not a big deal since they were basically coal furnaces rigged to burn more convenient to use oil in the 1920s. 

Bituminous was generally used in larger industrial plants and for generating electricity. Also for most coal burning locomotives and steam powered marine craft that used coal for fuel.

Often an industrial user would have a specific mix of hard and soft coal for their needs.

Where these types of coal came from would basically determine whose hopper cars were employed for delivery. Also 50 to 55 ton cars might be more common that 70 ton cars for the 1950s, especially at small, local coal dealers.

High quality anthracite was basically mined in Northeastern Pennsylvania.
Coal mined in western PA, West Virginia and Kentucky was was primarily bituminous. Coal mined in southern Illinois and the central states was usually of a quality between both types. Much of it was used for power generation. Western coal out of Wyoming, Montana, etc. was basically lignite, of lower heating quality

PRR handled anthracite from NE Pennsylvania as well as bituminous from western PA and West Virginia. Much of this traveled to Philadelphia and New York for those metro areas, as well as into New England. Other anthracite haulers were Eire, Jersey Central, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Lehigh & New England and the Lackawanna.

B&O, C&O, N&W and VGN mainly handled soft coal out of West Virginia and Kentucky. NYC too, served bituminous coal mines deep in West Virginia, hauling it into upper New York and New England.

C&O,  N&W and VGN were large shippers of coal for export out of Newport News VA.  A good deal of B&O's West Virginia coal came to Baltimore and New York for local use and export, as well as up to Canada via Rochester NY.

Monon, C&EI, Wabash and IC basically handled coal from southern Illinois,
CB&Q, and MP carried coal from deposits in the central states.

So on NYC rails in western MI, one would likely see NYC and P&LE hoppers, maybe also C&O, at some coal delivery points. Possibly Erie or even D&H for hard coal delivery.

PRR as well for anthracite but perhaps also the Reading (?), as the NYC owned half of the Reading Company along with the B&O, which basically did not handle anthracite.

Bituminous coal often went to large coal dealers and factories. Anthracite to large and especially small coal dealers, who most often provided coal for heating homes small businesses.

What hoppers you might see on a railroad will depend on the source of the coal and the customer's needs. Also how the coal was sold to local dealers through brokers. That sometimes produces an interesting mix of different railroad's hoppers at a coal dealership.

Ed Bommer



 


paul.doggett2472@...
 

I have just watched a video with a D&RGW GS gondola loaded with on the SP&S so even drop bottom gons got about with coal loads.

Paul Doggett UK


Tony Thompson
 

Paul Doggett wrote:

 
I have just watched a video with a D&RGW GS gondola loaded with on the SP&S so even drop bottom gons got about with coal loads.


       Quite true, Paul. Most Western railroads had GS gondolas instead of hoppers, especially D&RGW, which served extensive coal fields in western Colorado and eastern Utah. (Note that easterners listing coal areas rarely mention this region.) Likewise UP, SP, WP and others had lots of GS cars on their rosters for both bulk loads and for conventional gondola loads. The coal arriving at the Kaiser Steel mill in Fontana, Calif. was in the transition era heavily GS gondolas (D&RGW, UCR, UP) along with occasional MP hoppers. Remember that MP and D&RGW were cooperative partners in traffic.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Tom Vanwormer
 

Paul,
The GS gondola car was the "hopper car" of the western US until the late 60s.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

I have just watched a video with a D&RGW GS gondola loaded with on the SP&S so even drop bottom gons got about with coal loads.

Paul Doggett UK



Charles Peck
 

Alex, you might add L&N with KY bituminous in 55 ton hoppers.
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Alex Schneider aschneiderjr@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Other than home road hoppers, what roads would be appropriate on NYC rails in western Michigan, circa 1952? And would there be a distinction between loads to an electric generating plant, to a coaling tower, and to a coal yard for domestic use? Would 70 ton hoppers be more or less appropriate to any of these destinations?
  • PRR
  • B&O
  • C&O
  • N&W
  • VGN
  • Monon
  • C&EI
  • Wabash
  • IC
  • CB&Q
  • MP
Thanks in advance.

Alex Schneider
​   

Posted by: Alex Schneider <aschneiderjr@...>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (37)

.



spsalso
 

The SP&S bought 67 GS gons from D&RGW in 1964-1965.  Perhaps the video shows one being delivered.  Or perhaps they were operated for awhile with D&RGW markings intact.



Ed

Edward Sutorik


SUVCWORR@...
 

By the early 50's much of domestic use of coal had switched to anthracite to decrease air pollution.  To that end you would need

RDG
LV
CRP
CNJ
D&H
DL&W
L&NE

cars for this purpose.  While the PRR did serve anthracite mines the vast majority were served by the roads above which is why collectively they were known as the Anthracite Roads

Rich Orr



-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Nov 17, 2014 1:44 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?



Alex, you might add L&N with KY bituminous in 55 ton hoppers.
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Alex Schneider aschneiderjr@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
Other than home road hoppers, what roads would be appropriate on NYC rails in western Michigan, circa 1952? And would there be a distinction between loads to an electric generating plant, to a coaling tower, and to a coal yard for domestic use? Would 70 ton hoppers be more or less appropriate to any of these destinations?
  • PRR
  • B&O
  • C&O
  • N&W
  • VGN
  • Monon
  • C&EI
  • Wabash
  • IC
  • CB&Q
  • MP
Thanks in advance.

Alex Schneider
​   

Posted by: Alex Schneider <aschneiderjr@...>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (37)

.





paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

Ed 
    The gon was in a freight hauled by SP&S challenger in the 
fifties.
Paul


Sent from Samsung mobile

"Edwardsutorik@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

The SP&S bought 67 GS gons from D&RGW in 1964-1965.  Perhaps the video shows one being delivered.  Or perhaps they were operated for awhile with D&RGW markings intact.




Ed

Edward Sutorik


caboose9792@...
 

A few additions:
The CB&Q's main coal line was in southern IL, the BNSF still halls coal on this line today.

L&N delivered much of there west Kentucky coal to the IC at Ashley IL, which ended when they took over the C&EI
 
The railroad is just south of the border but you might want to check out the mix on the South shore line (CSS) since most of the railroad is within 20 miles of your area of interest you can get a good idea of what is there and easer to sort though casually than NYC pictures which could be anywhere.
 
For full disclosure our family's coal yard in Chicago sold Orient coal (from southern IL) and "Reading Anthracite" was our hard coal and our business was residential.

Mark Rickert
 
 
 

In a message dated 11/17/2014 12:11:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
Monon, C&EI, Wabash and IC basically handled coal from southern Illinois,
CB&Q, and MP carried coal from deposits in the central states.