Date
1 - 18 of 18
Prototype fidelity
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Clark Propst
Bill wrote, referring to the rivet strip on the Atlas tank car running
board: “To me this
is right up there with the 41-foot Branchline post-war steel
boxcars,”
Beings these are RTR cars it’s something I
never noticed. Take the tank car out of
the box, weather it and run it. Tank cars are a mystery to many of us, they’re
not well documented like, say a box car, where I can look up which brake wheel
should be on the car, as an example.
I own 6 tank cars for my packing house
operation, 2 for my oil distributor, 1 SC&F two dome and a Tangent three
dome and 1 of the Atlas cars to haul ammonia to my fertilizer manufacturing
plant. Modeling one town and running no through trains, that’s all I need. The
layout operates on a 5 day week cycle. The 6 packinghouse cars run through the
cycle of being weighed empty, cleaned/inspected and loaded, weighed each
session. One car is delivered to the oil jobber on Tuesday and the other is
spotted on Thursday. This gives the oil dealer enough time to unload the cars
without demurrage if we don’t count the weekend when there’s no switch job. The
ammonia car is delivered once a week.
Now that I’ve rambled on let me get to the
reason for this post. How many group members trust what an historical society
offers to be reasonably prototypical? I feel the average Joe modeler does.
I was given the opportunity to see a photo
of the next cars being offered by the CNWHS at their annual convention next
spring. They have chosen to have Accurail do two CGW box cars for them. One is a
one only 40’ 8’ door PS1 with a SL badge. The Accurail model’s a fair choice.
The second car is a 40’ 6’ door PS1 with DF badge. Does Accurail offer a PS1
with a 6’ door? No. So guess what carbody they put the paint job on? Their 3500
series AAR box car! A completely wrong car! This convention is a joint
convention with the UP society. So they reweighed one of the cars with the
reweigh station symbol of UP.
To me this is worst than the Atlas tank car
goof...They are abusing the modeler’s trust, or showing them little if any
respect.
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa |
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Andy Carlson
Ask Tony about Richard Hendrickson's reaction to the CB&Q's society similar destroying their assumed crown of all-knowing expertise by passing off inappropriate cars for a society offering. Our Richard was heaped a lot of scorn from self-righteous "defenders" of the indefensible. Richard, of course, took it well. The first Naperville following this, I saw the Q's Bat Masterson visiting with Richard amicably, prompting me to do my best (Could be argued) Rogers and Hammerstein "Oh the farmer and the cowboy should be friends". Richard laughed, as he was one of a few who understood some of my humor, Bat was puzzled. Anyhow, they both survived as friends, which illustrates yet another of Richard's fine traits. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
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michaelegross <michaelEGross@...>
Boggles the mind to think any society would issue a bogus car. Caveat emptor!
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I think it's been the general practice for a very long time... Although it has changed in the last 10-15 years with the availability of so many accurate models. I have foobies from the IC, MP, SOO, and other societies. Tim O'Connor Boggles the mind to think any society would issue a bogus car. Caveat emptor! Michael Gross |
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And a lot has to do with who sits on the deciding board of the Historical Society. One of the struggles with the CNWHS, the one cited by Clark, is the board was mostly former employees and/or railfans, but not modelers, and certainly not prototype modelers. If a car was lettered for their favorite road it was ok, even if was an Athearn bluebox car. And remember when many HS got started, the Athearn bluebox was about the only car they could get custom lettered. So the powers that be keep going back to the same supplier, asking what have to you got that we can letter for ….
Fortunately we have companies and individuals who are willing to come as close as they can with a prototypically correct freight car. For example the Cudahy meat reefer that Don Valentine, via his NERS, had Atlas run using their 36’ wood meat reefer. I just got mine today and compared it to the photo Don used. It looks excellent, considering he used an off the shelf model. Atlas claims their meat reefer is based upon a Cudahy car, and the model is very, very close. Most will be very pleased. Those who aren’t may want to stick with scratch building.
Doug Harding
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It would seem that a well run board, faced with a decision outside their expertise, would seek assistance from someone better informed. Chuck Peck On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 7:42 PM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
Actually, I'm not boggled at all. After four years of BRHS membership, I
fully understand the limitations of society leadership and the proclivities of the membership. The BRHS is predominantly made up of retired railroaders and railroad historians. While there are modelers among the ranks, few are true prototype modelers. Most of the societies modelers are perfectly happy with Accurail. I give the society credit for some excellent Burlington Bulletins over the years, but the publication schedule has sagged in recent years to the point where I'm beginning to wonder about the value of continued membership. The bottom line is, 'Knowledge is power', and whoever said that was certainly right when it comes to historical society or society affiliated model releases. Nelson Moyer From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 6:08 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Prototype fidelity Boggles the mind to think any society would issue a bogus car. Caveat emptor! Michael Gross Facebook.com/ActorMichaelGross <http://Facebook.com/ActorMichaelGross> Twitter.com/MichaelGrossBiz <http://Twitter.com/MichaelGrossBiz> |
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Anspach Denny <danspachmd@...>
A foobie, but is it a crime?
The historical societies do what they can do economically by making use of what is available in the market. For them, a foobie is better than none. Modelers are just one membership segment of these societies, and if they know it is a foobie and care, they can say so, sit on their hands, resign, or like those of us peons on the outside, simply move on and not buy the product. It certainly is not a moral issue for which we need to demand explanation. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento |
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riverman_vt@...
A foobie, but is it a crime? The historical societies do what they can do economically by making use of what is available in the market. For them, a foobie is better than none. Modelers are just one membership segment of these societies, and if they know it is a foobie and care, they can say so, sit on their hands, resign, or like those of us peons on the outside, simply move on and not buy the product. It certainly is not a moral issue for which we need to demand explanation.
Denny
To a point I agree with you, Denny, but I have a REAL problem with your last sentence, "It certainly is not a moral issue for which we need to demand explanation". If that is the majority view of such things that occur
today I suggest to you that we are in deep doodoo. From a model club or other group I will not argue with you but if "historical" groups cannot offer historically correct and accurate examples they ought to admit they are not true historical groups and cease to function. Unfortunately we seem to have too many such people trying
to write today and often presenting fiction as "history".
Just another point of view, Don Valentine |
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arved_grass
"Follow the money." (All the President's Men, 1976)
If amusement parks can masquerade as museums, offering us artifacts such as "The Texas Cross-dressers" (Galveston Railroad Museum's ex-SP F7 painted in Santa Fe Warbonnet and Austin Steam Train Association ex ATSF RSD-15 dolled up in SP's Black Widow), then why does it surprise anyone when a historical society puts out a foobie? If the foobie is reasonably close, then I think it's OK as long as the society has the ethics to disclose the model's shortcomings and let the customer decide. Take it as an educational opportunity as well as a financial opportunity. I'd rather buy a foobie to help support a railroad historical society under those conditions than to fall for some con-job. Sometimes a foobie isn't so bad, and is the best we can hope for. I have such a model on my workbench, following this article for building an SP G-50-25 class gondola from the Tyco/Mantua model: http://lariverrailroads.com/tyco_gondola.html Then there are the models like AHM Helium car and 6-dome wine car. Not entirely accurate (being kind to the wine car here), but when it's the best that's available, even the most hardcore among us will make do at least until a better model comes along. Arved Grass Arved_Grass@... or Arved@... Fleming Island, Florida |
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Clark Propst
I’ll disagree with you Denny because I feel the HSs do have an obligation
to offer their membership the best product they can.
I’ll agree with you that beings I’m not involved with the selection process
I shouldn’t be bitching ; ))
I looked at a photo of the prototype SL car they’re going to release. The
8’ door is from Superior. The Accurail car has a Youngstown door....
I was involved with the 04 convention cars. I feel we offered members the
best models we could at the time.
Gene Green worked with Red Caboose to offer the CNWHS members one of the
most accurate kits/RTR models ever produced by that company.
I know the NKPHS put out a group of Branchline cars that were top
notch.
It can be done.
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa |
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Gary Roe
I have to agree with Clark. The Wabash Railroad Historical Society has thought about doing some special run cars; but a lot of the reason we never did, was because accurate models weren't available. Over the last 5-10 years, there have been a number of accurate cars come out; but the manufacturers are painting them for the Wabash. It kinda messes up our ability to do a car; but it saves us a lot of time and trouble! gary
roe president WRHS quincy, illinois From: "cepropst@q.com [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 10:04 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Prototype fidelity I’ll disagree with you Denny because I feel the HSs do have an obligation
to offer their membership the best product they can.
I’ll agree with you that beings I’m not involved with the selection process
I shouldn’t be bitching ; ))
I looked at a photo of the prototype SL car they’re going to release. The
8’ door is from Superior. The Accurail car has a Youngstown door....
I was involved with the 04 convention cars. I feel we offered members the
best models we could at the time.
Gene Green worked with Red Caboose to offer the CNWHS members one of the
most accurate kits/RTR models ever produced by that company.
I know the NKPHS put out a group of Branchline cars that were top
notch.
It can be done.
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa |
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Mark Drake <markstation01@...>
Well if the options are use what is out there or don't make it at all I personally think the historical societies should use what is available with the caveat that it is not an accurate car and then describe the differences. If a simple conversion can be made then that option should be considered but we can't expect an all new tooling for a one road specific car. Mark L. Drake eBay ID member1108 On Sunday, November 23, 2014 11:17 AM, "gary roe wabashrr@... [STMFC]" wrote: I have to agree with Clark. The Wabash Railroad Historical Society has thought about doing some special run cars; but a lot of the reason we never did, was because accurate models weren't available. Over the last 5-10 years, there have been a number of accurate cars come out; but the manufacturers are painting them for the Wabash. It kinda messes up our ability to do a car; but it saves us a lot of time and trouble! gary
roe president WRHS quincy, illinois From: "cepropst@q.com [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 10:04 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Prototype fidelity I’ll disagree with you Denny because I feel the HSs do have an obligation
to offer their membership the best product they can.
I’ll agree with you that beings I’m not involved with the selection process
I shouldn’t be bitching ; ))
I looked at a photo of the prototype SL car they’re going to release. The
8’ door is from Superior. The Accurail car has a Youngstown door....
I was involved with the 04 convention cars. I feel we offered members the
best models we could at the time.
Gene Green worked with Red Caboose to offer the CNWHS members one of the
most accurate kits/RTR models ever produced by that company.
I know the NKPHS put out a group of Branchline cars that were top
notch.
It can be done.
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa |
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Dave Nelson
Something to keep in mind is the purpose of these cars includes raising funds. Does anyone object that a coffee mug with a flag isn’t actually identical to those found in that road’s Dining cars? Or that employees did not actually wear those printed Tee Shirts or baseball caps?
Common guys… it’s one thing to point out the offered car is not correct (and by all means continue to do so) and quite another to lose sight of the forest while your nose is jammed into one tree.
Conclusion: It’s a foobie. Get over it.
Dave Nelson
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
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Schuyler Larrabee
A foobie, but is it a crime? The historical societies do what they can do economically by making use of what is available in the market. For them, a foobie is better than none. Modelers are just one membership segment of these societies, and if they know it is a foobie and care, they can say so, sit on their hands, resign, or like those of us peons on the outside, simply move on and not buy the product. It certainly is not a moral issue for which we need to demand explanation.
Denny
Denny,
Perhaps not a crime to offer a foobie. But it is irresponsible to sell foobies and not disclose that it is one. And you should not lump all historical societies together as you have.
The ELHS has not offered for sale anything other than accurate cars, though some hoppers we offered years ago were not >quite< perfect. Then as now the alternate version was not available in a mass-market-priced kit or assembled car.
But when one of our Board members realized that IM had the right sides, ends and roof available for a DL&W XM, but just not in the right combination, we enquired if that combination could be made. IM responded to our inquiry and reworked some of their molds to be able to produce the cars. (I believe they actually cut new tooling for one or more parts of the molds, though I don’t know that for sure.) The result was the “Route of Phoebe Snow” cars we offered some years ago. I know that a number of members of this list bought the cars after I announced them here.
There are many other potential cars that are “real close,” but at least thus far, the Board (I am no longer on the Board) has resisted that temptation in favor of only offering models that are correct, to the best of our ability to do so.
Schuyler Newton Highlands MA
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Tony Thompson
Denny Anspach wrote:
If we really BELIEVED that a foobie is better than nothing, we would all still be re-decaling Athearn box cars. Shame on you, Denny. I am certain that you know better. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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asychis@...
Hi Clark,
You wrote,"How many group members trust what an historical society offers
to be reasonably prototypical? I feel the average Joe modeler does."
In my opinion historical societies are responsible for offering cars
that are as prototypically correct as possible, and point out significant
differences in the model and prototype. Doing paint schemes as you
mentioned do not reflect well on that society, and that is sad for the C&NW
Historical Society which has a pretty good reputation.
I agree with you that the "average Joe modeler" most likely assumes that an
historical society will take pains to produce an accurate model. I sure
do. I can't know all the details of a specific offering unless someone
does a review of the product, or I know the reliability of a society. Same for
manufacturers. I immediately assume a car produced by Accurail or
InterMountain has a 90% chance of being bogus and will not buy unless convinced
otherwise. But if it comes from Kadee, Tangent or Exact Rail, the opposite
is true. So, I think the C&NWHS will sadly damage there reputation
with the bogus box car they plan. And just as sadly, it will take years to
regain their reputation.
Curiously, though, I don't think this is uncommon in the leadership of some
societies. When the Amarillo Railroad Museum hosted meeting of a
rather large southwestern historical society a few years back we were pressured
to produce a bogus "Amarillo Merchandise Service" reefer that was "close."
Since we had produced a number of custom cars before, the idea was we had the
capital to sink into this project whether it was accurate or not.
We refused, and were greatly appreciative that Richard Hendrickson
supported us, stepped in and chided this society.
On the other hand, we have also had the experience of producing a very
accurate car with the proper body paint (well researched with Pantone color
matching), and were not so tenderly ripped apart on a freight cars
list we all know and love because a photo on eBay did not register the color
well.
It goes both ways.
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum |
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I’m more of the point of view that societies should go for accurate or not
bother with realistic paint and lettering.
On the topic of relying on societies, I am with others who do. I
don’t have the breadth of knowledge to chase every prototype, but when I see an
offering by a society I am more willing to ante up. In the hobby shop I’m
often scuppered by foobie paint schemes (to the point of walking out empty
handed), so any help is appreciated.
In fact, it occurs to me in this era of advance orders and limited
production runs that the best way to gather crowds around specific models is for
societies (or others with credibility for seriousness and accuracy) to do the
research, get the community interested and on board, and then bring that to the
manufacturer. Societies wanting to make $$ should try that out – it
is more likely I’ll purchase a model for a road I know little about where the
research is already done and presented with the model. Otherwise I stick
to the little I know, and broaden my purchases very slowly.
But I’ve no problem if a society fundraiser does a foobie so long as they
put a great big “2014 fund raiser” on the side – that tells me
enough. (sort of like NMRA national meet cars) And
frankly if they stuck to Athearn blue box, I’d feel the same. To me
I think the issue partly arises from the fact that Accurail car bodies look like
the real thing, so make the potential for mistakes real.
Rob Kirkham
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