Topics

24' Minnesota Ore Car questions

markstation01@...
 

Did any east coast road operate these circa 1957-58? P&LE, P&WV, or any within PA, NY, NJ....I know the LHR had a similar type.

Jim Betz
 

Mark,

The typical/most common use of the Minnesota
ore cars was to use them to haul ore from the mines
to the Great Lakes (usually Duluth), transfer the ore
to ships, run them to ports, transfer the ore back
into ore cars to haul them to the steel mills. The
second loadings were done to cars lettered for
whatever RR was doing that work.
In fact the GN cars stayed on the GN, NP on the NP,
DM&IR on their rails, etc., etc., etc. And it was quite
rare to ever see an ore train that wasn't "all one RR".
(Significantly different than coal - but even coal was
often "one road".)

I'm saying that ore cars were not, in general, used
in "interchange service".

There were some exceptions. I know of two.

1) During the winter, when the Great Lakes were
frozen/weather was really bad ... sometimes
ore trains would travel all the way to Pa. But
those were not normal (didn't happen every
year and/or didn't happen for very many years
running.

2) A -few- Minnesota ore cars were sent West to
California, Ore, and Wash ... used for gravel,
ballast, and other non-iron ore service. Some
of the earliest GN cars were even sold to the YV
and can still be found in ballast service on the
Sierra today (but not every day).
- Jim Betz

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <jimbetz@...> wrote :

Mark,

The typical/most common use of the Minnesota
ore cars was to use them to haul ore from the mines
to the Great Lakes (usually Duluth), transfer the ore
to ships, run them to ports, transfer the ore back
into ore cars to haul them to the steel mills. The
second loadings were done to cars lettered for
whatever RR was doing that work.
In fact the GN cars stayed on the GN, NP on the NP,
DM&IR on their rails, etc., etc., etc. And it was quite
rare to ever see an ore train that wasn't "all one RR".
(Significantly different than coal - but even coal was
often "one road".)
- Jim Betz

===========

With a couple exceptions...

NP and SOO pooled the traffic off the Cuyuna Range in Minnesota. The ore was shipped over the NP dock in Superior, WI (Duluth harbor).

The CNW and SOO pooled the traffic off the Gogebic Range in Wisconsin and far northwestenr Michigan. The traffic was shipped out over the Soo dock in Ashland, WI.

The "Minnesota" ore cars were a design constrained by the pocket spacing of the docks on the upper Great Lakes. As time went on, the cars grew in capacity from twenty tons to seventy tons, but couldn't get any longer, due to the desire to have all cars centered over the pockets so all could be dumped at once. The result was a very compact car with the trucks at the extreme ends, to the point it was difficult for a man to couple air hoses between cars, and at least one road, DM&IR, went to an arrangement with the air hoses higher on the car ends. These constraints did not apply to the cars that loaded ore at ports on the lower lakes and hauled it to the mills, so cars in use down there developed differently.

In later years (past the era covered by this list) as the iron ranges played out, some of the "Minnesota" cars found a second life in aggregate service in semi permanently coupled unit trains,  but that was a rare exception.

Dennis Storzek

caboose9792@...
 

All the "exceptions" I can think of or have photos all post date this list but other destinations are Birmingham AL (Fairfield) and St. Louis (Granite City) to nearby USS corp. mills.
 
Mark Rickert (no, not the mark that started the thread)
 
 

In a message dated 12/1/2014 12:45:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
With a couple exceptions...

NP and SOO pooled the traffic off the Cuyuna Range in Minnesota. The ore was shipped over the NP dock in Superior, WI (Duluth harbor).

The CNW and SOO pooled the traffic off the Gogebic Range in Wisconsin and far northwestenr Michigan. The traffic was shipped out over the Soo dock in Ashland, WI.

The "Minnesota" ore cars were a design constrained by the pocket spacing of the docks on the upper Great Lakes. As time went on, the cars grew in capacity from twenty tons to seventy tons, but couldn't get any longer, due to the desire to have all cars centered over the pockets so all could be dumped at once. The result was a very compact car with the trucks at the extreme ends, to the point it was difficult for a man to couple air hoses between cars, and at least one road, DM&IR, went to an arrangement with the air hoses higher on the car ends. These constraints did not apply to t he cars that loaded ore at ports on the lower lakes and hauled it to the mills, so cars in use down there developed differently.

In later years (past the era covered by this list) as the iron ranges played out, some of the "Minnesota" cars found a second life in aggregate service in semi permanently coupled unit trains,  but that was a rare exception.

Dennis Storzek

Cyril Durrenberger
 

There was also some limited movement of NP and GN ore cars to the DM&IR docks at Duluth and DM&IR ore cars to the NP docks at Superior or GN docks at Superior to balance the ore content for the boat loads, but all of these transfers stayed in the Duluth Superior area. The DM&IR had docks at Duluth and Two Harbors. Beginning with some of the older wood ore cars, sometimes older D&IR/DM&N/DM&IR (D&IR and DM&N merged into the DM&IR in 1937) ore cars were used to move coal on the DM&IR. I do not have any information that indicates that cars in this service moved off line.

Cyril Durrenberger


--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 12/1/14, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: 24' Minnesota Ore Car questions
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, December 1, 2014, 12:45 PM


 












---In STMFC@...,
<jimbetz@...> wrote :

Mark,



The typical/most common use of the Minnesota

ore cars was to use them to haul ore from the mines

to the Great Lakes (usually Duluth), transfer the ore

to ships, run them to ports, transfer the ore back

into ore cars to haul them to the steel mills. The

second loadings were done to cars lettered for

whatever RR was doing that work.

In fact the GN cars stayed on the GN, NP on the NP,

DM&IR on their rails, etc., etc., etc. And it was
quite

rare to ever see an ore train that wasn't "all one
RR".

(Significantly different than coal - but even coal was

often "one road".)

- Jim Betz

===========

With a couple exceptions...

NP and SOO pooled the traffic
off the Cuyuna Range in Minnesota. The ore was shipped over
the NP dock in Superior, WI (Duluth harbor).

The CNW and SOO pooled the
traffic off the Gogebic Range in Wisconsin and far
northwestenr Michigan. The traffic was shipped out over the
Soo dock in Ashland, WI.

The "Minnesota" ore cars were a
design constrained by the pocket spacing of the docks on the
upper Great Lakes. As time went on, the cars grew in
capacity from twenty tons to seventy tons, but couldn't
get any longer, due to the desire to have all cars centered
over the pockets so all could be dumped at once. The result
was a very compact car with the trucks at the extreme ends,
to the point it was difficult for a man to couple air hoses
between cars, and at least one road, DM&IR, went to an
arrangement with the air hoses higher on the car ends. These
constraints did not apply to the cars that loaded ore at
ports on the lower lakes and hauled it to the mills, so cars
in use down there developed differently.

In later years (past the era covered by this
list) as the iron ranges played out, some of the
"Minnesota" cars found a second life in aggregate
service in semi permanently coupled unit trains,  but that
was a rare exception.

Dennis Storzek










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markstation01 <markstation01@...>
 

Thanks for all the info, I guess my private road will be hauling the obscure quantity of ore out of the suburbs of NY City


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger durrecj@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date:12/01/2014 5:14 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: 24' Minnesota Ore Car questions

 

There was also some limited movement of NP and GN ore cars to the DM&IR docks at Duluth and DM&IR ore cars to the NP docks at Superior or GN docks at Superior to balance the ore content for the boat loads, but all of these transfers stayed in the Duluth Superior area. The DM&IR had docks at Duluth and Two Harbors. Beginning with some of the older wood ore cars, sometimes older D&IR/DM&N/DM&IR (D&IR and DM&N merged into the DM&IR in 1937) ore cars were used to move coal on the DM&IR. I do not have any information that indicates that cars in this service moved off line.

Cyril Durrenberger

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 12/1/14, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: 24' Minnesota Ore Car questions
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, December 1, 2014, 12:45 PM


 












---In STMFC@...,
<jimbetz@...> wrote :

Mark,



The typical/most common use of the Minnesota

ore cars was to use them to haul ore from the mines

to the Great Lakes (usually Duluth), transfer the ore

to ships, run them to ports, transfer the ore back

into ore cars to haul them to the steel mills. The

second loadings were done to cars lettered for

whatever RR was doing that work.

In fact the GN cars stayed on the GN, NP on the NP,

DM&IR on their rails, etc., etc., etc. And it was
quite

rare to ever see an ore train that wasn't "all one
RR".

(Significantly different than coal - but even coal was

often "one road".)

- Jim Betz

===========

With a couple exceptions...

NP and SOO pooled the traffic
off the Cuyuna Range in Minnesota. The ore was shipped over
the NP dock in Superior, WI (Duluth harbor).

The CNW and SOO pooled the
traffic off the Gogebic Range in Wisconsin and far
northwestenr Michigan. The traffic was shipped out over the
Soo dock in Ashland, WI.

The "Minnesota" ore cars were a
design constrained by the pocket spacing of the docks on the
upper Great Lakes. As time went on, the cars grew in
capacity from twenty tons to seventy tons, but couldn't
get any longer, due to the desire to have all cars centered
over the pockets so all could be dumped at once. The result
was a very compact car with the trucks at the extreme ends,
to the point it was difficult for a man to couple air hoses
between cars, and at least one road, DM&IR, went to an
arrangement with the air hoses higher on the car ends. These
constraints did not apply to the cars that loaded ore at
ports on the lower lakes and hauled it to the mills, so cars
in use down there developed differently.

In later years (past the era covered by this
list) as the iron ranges played out, some of the
"Minnesota" cars found a second life in aggregate
service in semi permanently coupled unit trains,  but that
was a rare exception.

Dennis Storzek










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al_brown03
 

There's still high-quality iron ore under the mountains of northern New Jersey and southern New York: there's a book about it called "Vanishing Iron Works of the Ramapos". A little railroad called the Sterling Mountain RR came down to meet the Erie at Sterlington, NY (between Suffern and Harriman). Extraction became un-economic in the 20th century because (1) the ore is deep underground and must be shaft-mined, and (2) the land is more valuable as suburbs.

 

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Cyril Durrenberger
 

How far underground are the deposits?

Cyril Durrenberger
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 12/2/14, abrown@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: 24' Minnesota Ore Car questions
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2014, 12:38 PM


 









There's still high-quality iron ore
under the mountains of northern New Jersey and southern New
York: there's a book about it called "Vanishing
Iron Works of the Ramapos". A little railroad called
the Sterling Mountain RR came down to meet the Erie at
Sterlington, NY (between Suffern and Harriman). Extraction
became un-economic in the 20th century because (1) the ore
is deep underground and must be shaft-mined, and (2) the
land is more valuable as suburbs. Al Brown,
Melbourne, Fla.










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al_brown03
 

When I get home I'll look to see if I have the book. It was my Dad's copy, and my brother may have it.

 

AL B.


 

Charles Tapper
 

B&LE had their own 24' ore cars (jeeps), based on the Minnesota design but with variations, delivered in the mid-50s IIRC.  I remember seeing DMIR cars in service in some photos of B&LE trains, or I at least have a mental bookmark that I could justify some.These were undoubtedly leased. US Steel roads swapped cars and power quite a bit. 
 
I am not with my books, but this may stimulate some posts by those that are expert.
 
Short ore cars were operated over the P&LE to Monessen. I know there are published photos in the color books on the P&LE. The shots don't show the sides very well. I don't know if these were from the iron range or owned by Wheeling-Pittsburgh. They were not the DM&IR types. I have spent little time checking up on those.
 
P&WV served Monessen as well, and ran ore extras, but pictures of anything P&WV are rare as hens teeth.  I will see if any ore extra pix from my books had ore cars or if they were all hoppers.
 
So...that was really not precise and immensely uninformative. But anyway, I think the answer is yes, in a way. You will have to verify times.
 
Charlie Tapper
I will be offline so have fun.
 
 
 


On Monday, December 1, 2014 9:07 AM, "markstation01@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Did any east coast road operate these circa 1957-58? P&LE, P&WV, or any within PA, NY, NJ....I know the LHR had a similar type.