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Bridge Traffic and Stock cars

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

I am wondering if stockcars interchanged much or did they mostly stay on
their home roads? Example: In the post WWI- WWII eras (say 1920's to around
1945) would stock cars from east/west connections of the Rio Grande such as
Burlington and Rock Island and MP and the WP/SP have been in bridge-traffic
trains on the Grande?

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni
arved_grass
 

Generally, neighboring railroads only. I'm sure there were exceptions, but rules required fairly frequent disembarking of the stock carried for feeding watering, and car cleaning. The railroad generally wouldn't wait for the same car to be cleaned, so they'd use their own if available.

There's an economic incentive for both using your own car for that portion of the move, as well as charging the foreign railroad for cleaning the car before returning it. :-)

When a stock car was used for something else (like furniture), I have to assume it would be handled much like any other freight car.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 12/17/14, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars
To: "STMFC List" <STMFC@...>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 12:20 PM


 









I am wondering if stockcars interchanged much or
did they mostly stay on

their home roads? Example: In the post WWI- WWII eras (say
1920's to around

1945) would stock cars from east/west connections of the Rio
Grande such as

Burlington and Rock Island and MP and the WP/SP have been in
bridge-traffic

trains on the Grande?



Thanks!

--



Brian Ehni



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













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Ray Breyer
 

On the Library of Congress website, there are several photos of NP, CB&Q and NYC stock cars at rthe IHB's Calumet (Chicago) resting yard. These loaded stock cars are bypassing the Union Stock Yard and are heading both East and West.
 
And yes, stock cars were interchanged every day, just like every other revenue freight car. If nothing else, stock cars were used to haul much more than animals, since idle freight cars don't make railroads any money.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

From: "BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC List
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 11:20 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars

I am wondering if stockcars interchanged much or did they mostly stay on
their home roads? Example: In the post WWI- WWII eras (say 1920's to around
1945) would stock cars from east/west connections of the Rio Grande such as
Burlington and Rock Island and MP and the WP/SP have been in bridge-traffic
trains on the Grande?

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni
Tony Thompson
 

Arved Grass wrote:

 

Generally, neighboring railroads only. I'm sure there were exceptions, but rules required fairly frequent disembarking of the stock carried for feeding watering, and car cleaning. The railroad generally wouldn't wait for the same car to be cleaned, so they'd use their own if available. 


        I think this generalization is all right. But there are certainly exceptions visible in photos. I have photos of both D&RGW and MKT stock cars in San Luis Obispo, and photos of MP, T&P and CB&Q stock cars in Los Angeles. These are kind of "neighboring" railroads for the SP, but at distances probably requiring at least one intermediate stock resting stop. But the predominant pattern, I'm sure, is as Arved states.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Gary Roe
 

I recently saw a picture of some guys loading Walnut logs into a CB&Q stock car.  They weren't very long, maybe about 4'; but they appeared to be about 18" in diameter, so I am sure it was no real easy task.  The caption said the logs were headed for a gun manufacturer to be used in making stocks.  In a way, I guess, it was the intended use of a "stock" car.

gary roe
quincy, illinois

From: "Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars

 
On the Library of Congress website, there are several photos of NP, CB&Q and NYC stock cars at rthe IHB's Calumet (Chicago) resting yard. These loaded stock cars are bypassing the Union Stock Yard and are heading both East and West.
 
And yes, stock cars were interchanged every day, just like every other revenue freight car. If nothing else, stock cars were used to haul much more than animals, since idle freight cars don't make railroads any money.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Posted by: Ray Breyer
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3)



.
BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

One of my uncles picked up the partially burned blanks after a fire at a
gunstock plant. He used them to floor several rooms at his house.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 at 12:32 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars







I recently saw a picture of some guys loading Walnut logs into a CB&Q stock
car. They weren't very long, maybe about 4'; but they appeared to be about
18" in diameter, so I am sure it was no real easy task. The caption said
the logs were headed for a gun manufacturer to be used in making stocks. In
a way, I guess, it was the intended use of a "stock" car.

gary roe
quincy, illinois_,_._,___
paul.doggett2472@...
 

I have a video which shows 3 SP stock cars on the B&O.


Paul Doggett UK
np328
 

And of the flip side to Paul's post. I have a copy of an ICC letter stating that an ICC official is directing the sending of 25 B&O stock cars well west of the Mississippi river to relieve stock car car shortages out west.

                                                                                Jim Dick - St. Paul

Bruce Smith
 

This topic comes up almost as frequently as banana traffic.  And every time we come to the same conclusion (or at least those of us paying attention).  Stock cars traveled, certainly to neighboring roads and often much further than neighboring roads. 

IAlong with others examples already mentioned, frequent sightings of west coast stock cars (SP, UP and even NP) on the PRR seem to suggest that there were certainly plenty of cars that traveled across the entire nation.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Dec 17, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Arved Grass arved_grass@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Generally, neighboring railroads only. I'm sure there were exceptions, but rules required fairly frequent disembarking of the stock carried for feeding watering, and car cleaning. The railroad generally wouldn't wait for the same car to be cleaned, so they'd use their own if available.

There's an economic incentive for both using your own car for that portion of the move, as well as charging the foreign railroad for cleaning the car before returning it. :-)

When a stock car was used for something else (like furniture), I have to assume it would be handled much like any other freight car.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 12/17/14, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars
To: "STMFC List" <STMFC@...>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 12:20 PM

      I am wondering if stockcars interchanged much or
did they mostly stay on

their home roads? Example: In the post WWI- WWII eras (say
1920's to around

1945) would stock cars from east/west connections of the Rio
Grande such as

Burlington and Rock Island and MP and the WP/SP have been in
bridge-traffic trains on the Grande?

Thanks!
Brian Ehni
William Hirt
 

Steve Holding, a retired BNSF dispatcher, had a presentation at the fall Burlington Route Historical Society meet using agent reports from the CB&Q station at Roseville, Illinois. The period of available record was from the late 1950s into the mid 1960s. It showed the various commodities shipped and received at the end of a branch line during the period.

Hogs were being shipped from this station to Tobin Packing Co on the NYC in Albany and Rochester NY.

Nov 1959 - 28 cars shipped. 2 SLSX, 21 UP, 4 D&RGW and 1 NYC. Avg 132 Hogs per car. - 3 cars to Rochester.
Dec 1959 - 32 cars shipped. 2 ATSF, 3 SP, 20 UP, 5 D&RGW and 1 ORL? Avg 136 Hogs per car - 1 car to Rochester.
Jan 1960 - 24 cars shipped. 1 CB&Q, 1 NYC, 21 UP and 1 OST/OSF? Avg 134 Hogs per car.
Feb 1960 - 29 cars shipped. 3 ATSF, 2 SP and 24 UP. Avg 124 Hogs per car - 2 cars to Rochester.
Mar 1960 - 30 cars shipped. 2 B&O, 1 NP, 3 SP, and 24 UP. Avg 135 Hogs per car.
April 1960 - 19 cars shipped. 1 D&RGW, 1 OSL, and 17 UP. Avg 130 Hogs per car.
May 1960 - 24 cars shipped. 2 CB&Q, 1 OSL, 1 SLSX, 2 SP and 18 UP. Avg 124 Hogs per car.
June 1960 - 25 cars shipped. 14 CB&Q and 11 UP. Avg 127 Hogs per car.
July 1960 - 18 cars shipped. 15 CB&Q and 3 UP. Avg 132 Hogs per car.

If not shown to Rochester, all the remaining went to the packing plant at Albany.

Bill Hirt


On 12/17/2014 1:40 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:

This topic comes up almost as frequently as banana traffic. �And every time we come to the same conclusion (or at least those of us paying attention). �Stock cars traveled, certainly to neighboring roads and often much further than neighboring roads.�



Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

Great data.  The only question I would have is whether this is strictly origination loading information and the stock might have been transferred to new cars at a junction stockyard or whether there was evidence that the cars went all the way through. 

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:15 PM, Bill Hirt whirt@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Steve Holding, a retired BNSF dispatcher, had a presentation at the fall Burlington Route Historical Society meet using agent reports from the CB&Q station at Roseville, Illinois. The period of available record was from the late 1950s into the mid 1960s. It showed the various commodities shipped and received at the end of a branch line during the period.

Hogs were being shipped from this station to Tobin Packing Co on the NYC in Albany and Rochester NY.

Nov 1959 - 28 cars shipped. 2 SLSX, 21 UP, 4 D&RGW and 1 NYC. Avg 132 Hogs per car. - 3 cars to Rochester.
Dec 1959 - 32 cars shipped. 2 ATSF, 3 SP, 20 UP, 5 D&RGW and 1 ORL? Avg 136 Hogs per car - 1 car to Rochester.
Jan 1960 - 24 cars shipped. 1 CB&Q, 1 NYC, 21 UP and 1 OST/OSF? Avg 134 Hogs per car.
Feb 1960 - 29 cars shipped. 3 ATSF, 2 SP and 24 UP. Avg 124 Hogs per car - 2 cars to Rochester.
Mar 1960 - 30 cars shipped. 2 B&O, 1 NP, 3 SP, and 24 UP. Avg 135 Hogs per car.
April 1960 - 19 cars shipped. 1 D&RGW, 1 OSL, and 17 UP. Avg 130 Hogs per car.
May 1960 - 24 cars shipped. 2 CB&Q, 1 OSL, 1 SLSX, 2 SP and 18 UP. Avg 124 Hogs per car.
June 1960 - 25 cars shipped. 14 CB&Q and 11 UP. Avg 127 Hogs per car.
July 1960 - 18 cars shipped. 15 CB&Q and 3 UP. Avg 132 Hogs per car.

If not shown to Rochester, all the remaining went to the packing plant at Albany. 

Bill Hirt


On 12/17/2014 1:40 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:
This topic comes up almost as frequently as banana traffic.  And every time we come to the same conclusion (or at least those of us paying attention).  Stock cars traveled, certainly to neighboring roads and often much further than neighboring roads. 






MDelvec952
 



Generally, there were big markets for livestock on both coasts. In steam-era northern New Jersey the Erie had the lion's share of stock cars rolling over it, but the PRR delivered quite a bit as well.  Lackawanna only had 50 stock cars in service during WWII, so most of what rolled over the Road of Anthracite were of Western and Mid-western origin.  During WWII, the Lackwanna used some of the stock cars as waycars (LCL) often delivering commodities such as loose coal. The open slats were filled in with fresher lumber to about a third of the way up the sides.

I followed the last livestock moves to the East Coast in the early 1990s on Conrail at a place called CP STOCK, and those were in UP cars. The folks at the slaughterhouse said they stopped because during the trip the weight of the animal reduced so greatly. That slaughterhouse still operates today, and the intense and vile stink wafts over Oak Island yard each summer. The trainmen and mechanics in that yard are used to it. Each time I'm there, I wonder if this is what Civil War-era railroading smelled like, when tallow was used to lubricate steam locomotives before the discovery of oil.

                   ....Mike Del Vecchio




-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars

 
Arved Grass wrote:

 
Generally, neighboring railroads only. I'm sure there were exceptions, but rules required fairly frequent disembarking of the stock carried for feeding watering, and car cleaning. The railroad generally wouldn't wait for the same car to be cleaned, so they'd use their own if available. 

        I think this generalization is all right. But there are certainly exceptions visible in photos. I have photos of both D&RGW and MKT stock cars in San Luis Obispo, and photos of MP, T&P and CB&Q stock cars in Los Angeles. These are kind of "neighboring" railroads for the SP, but at distances probably requiring at least one intermediate stock resting stop. But the predominant pattern, I'm sure, is as Arved states.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
William Hirt
 

Bruce,

According to Steve Holding's presentation, these movements to Tobin Packing were routine from the west central Illinois area. Steve grew up on a hog farm and said part of his "job" was taking the hogs into town to sell and then pay the property taxes on the farm. In the 1960s there are several pictures of Mather 50' Stock Cars being used to haul hogs east to Tobin Packing. The Roseville Agent record shows the same. They could make the 36 hours if expedited and the Q ran several transfers each day from their yard in Cicero to the IHB interchange at Congress Park to get the cars to the eastern railroads.

Russ Strotz posted on the Rail Freight Group several years ago some 1959 CB&Q switch lists of cars transferring to the IHB at Congress Park, IL. Most were CB&Q, but there are a few surprises.

March 5, 1959
NP 80051 Lambs NYC
NP 80098 Lambs NYC
NP 82828 Lambs NYC
CB&Q 52067 Cattle NYC
SLSX 71175 Hogs NYC
SLSX 71021 Hogs NYC
SLSX 71326 Hogs NYC
SLSX 71428 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 52046 Cattle PRR
CB&Q 53115 Cattle NYC
CB&Q 52671 Cattle NYC
CB&Q 52617 Cattle NYC

March 13, 1959
CB&Q 59263 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59472 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59235 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58818 Hogs NYC
NKP 25902 Horses NKP
CB&Q 59413 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58667 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58165 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58175 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58248 Hogs NYC
SLSX 71053 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59468 Sheep NKP
CB&Q 56496 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58829 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59297 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59180 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 52799 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 53048 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58124 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59193 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 52098 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 52826 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59278 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58704 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59154 Hogs WAB

March 28, 1959
NP 80207 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-MC
NP 80005 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-MC
NP 83776 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-MC
NP 80269 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-MC
NP 82962 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-MC
CB&Q 57114 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 56198 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 56940 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
SLSF 71358 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 58214 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 59134 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 53123 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-MC
CB&Q 52611 Cattle Congress Park-IHB-MC
CB&Q 59371 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 58237 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 56140 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 58926 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-NKP
CB&Q 59395 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 59462 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 57416 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 58878 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 58047 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 52524 Cattle Congress Park-IHB-NYC
CB&Q 56925 Hogs Congress Park-IHB-?
UP 46897 Sheep Congress Park-IHB-?

May 22, 1959
CB&Q 58541 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59310 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 56014 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58541 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58668 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58261 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59184 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58569 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59228 Hogs NYC
SLSX 71280 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58161 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58434 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58310 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59167 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 56372 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58538 Hogs IHB
CB&Q 52576 Sheep PRR
CB&Q 52049 Sheep PRR
CB&Q 56634 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59461 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59121 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 59268 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 52681 Cattle NYC

June 12, 1959
CB&Q 53015 Cattle NYC
CB&Q 58684 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58721 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58624 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58647 Hogs NYC
CB&Q 58825 Hogs NYC

Bill Hirt

On 12/17/2014 3:24 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:


Bill,

Great data. The only question I would have is whether this is strictly origination loading information and the stock might have been transferred to new cars at a junction stockyard or whether there was evidence that the cars went all the way through.
Dave Nelson
 

Consider that a whole lot of stock shipments were made to public stockyards – Salt Lake City for example – where  only some of the animals were purchased and moved to adjacent slaughterhouses.  The other animals had to moved elsewhere for final processing.  Given that assumption it  stands to reason that car service rules would tend to use cars loaded to return to home territory but not always… certainly not where there was an imbalance between inbound and outbound loads.  And so it should be natural see loaded stock cars moving off rails.

 

The other consideration is the price of animals did vary regionally and some shippers would try and take advantage of that by shipping animals further than you would expect.  I’ve seen numerous examples in the ICC 1% waybill data… stock moving from Texas to Southern California – maybe SP to SP or ATSF to ATSF but not necessarily – from Utah to Northern California – maybe mostly SP and WP cars but the stockyards in San Francisco were on ATSF and SP tracks, and stock moving from Montana to Northern California which most certainly would have included foreign road cars somewhere on that journey.

 

Last, the ICC !% waybill data does show non-animal shipments in stockcars ranging from watermelons to sewer pipe.

 

So yeah, stockcars on foreign roads were normal… but WRT your layout you should be thinking of the context in which those could reasonably occur.

 

Dave Nelson
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

This discussion sent me to my WP resources to see what I could find on livestock shipments on one of my favorite roads. Not much, I'm afraid.

In Jim Eager's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE he offers us a photo of WP 38' SM 75656. This car was photographed in San Marcos, Texas, in June 1945 (Why?). It was built in 1924-25 as a clone of SP's S-40-8 class. There were 200 of these cars, numbered 75501-75699. In 1937 100 cars were converted to double-deck as 75101-75200. The single-deck cars were gone by the late 1950s (many converted to outfit cars), but 96 double-deckers were still in hog service between Salt Lake City and San Francisco as late as 1959. WP also rostered 177 40' single-deck cars in series 75801-76232 as late as 1959, some serving into the early 1970s in company materials service. There were also several earlier classes of WP stock cars, all gone by WWII.

I own a copy of WP Circular No. 167-E, which lists all the shippers the WP and its subsidiaries served (probably about 1957), plus those of connecting lines in various locations that could be reached by interchange. The notion that hogs were shipped to SF, sent me looking through several hundred customers in that city. Not one of the ten or so stockyards were served by the WP directly, including either location of the Union Stock Yard. All were on the SP. There is no indication which of these yards dealt in pigs, though probably Union handled almost anything.

WP and the D&RGW shared access to Union Stock Yards in Salt Lake City.

I did note that WP served a Hahn's plant in San Francisco. This plant probably dressed sides for retail distribution, as the product handled is described as "meat". Here's an excuse to run Hahn's reefers through the Feather River Canyon.

Sacramento Northern, a WP-subsidiary, served two packing plants at Peethill, a location in West Sacramento/Broderick on the Woodland Branch. Both Royal Packing Company and Superior Packing Company were small operations, each having a capacity of six cars. Sacramento Northern also served the Swanston Packing Company at the end of the short Swanston Branch (North Sacramento). This plant was gone before WWII.

Something to . . . uh . . . chew on.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/17/14 6:16 PM, 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Consider that a whole lot of stock shipments were made to public stockyards – Salt Lake City for example – where  only some of the animals were purchased and moved to adjacent slaughterhouses.  The other animals had to moved elsewhere for final processing.  Given that assumption it  stands to reason that car service rules would tend to use cars loaded to return to home territory but not always… certainly not where there was an imbalance between inbound and outbound loads.  And so it should be natural see loaded stock cars moving off rails.

 

The other consideration is the price of animals did vary regionally and some shippers would try and take advantage of that by shipping animals further than you would expect.  I’ve seen numerous examples in the ICC 1% waybill data… stock moving from Texas to Southern California – maybe SP to SP or ATSF to ATSF but not necessarily – from Utah to Northern California – maybe mostly SP and WP cars but the stockyards in San Francisco were on ATSF and SP tracks, and stock moving from Montana to Northern California which most certainly would have included foreign road cars somewhere on that journey.

 

Last, the ICC !% waybill data does show non-animal shipments in stockcars ranging from watermelons to sewer pipe.

 

So yeah, stockcars on foreign roads were normal… but WRT your layout you should be thinking of the context in which those could reasonably occur.

 

Dave Nelson
Steve SANDIFER
 

San Marcos was on the MP and MKT in central Texas.

 

Western Pacific to Salt Lake City.

Rio Grande to Pueblo

Colo & Southen to Amarillo

Ft. Worth and Denver to Ft.Worth

Katy to San Marcos?

 

Or

WP to Stockton

SP to San Antonio

MP or MKT to San Marcos

 

Or maybe the car was empty in Amarillo and MKT had a shortage of cars, so they loaded it and shipped it to San Marcos.

 

Any way you do it, it is offline.

I have records of a CN stock car in Brady, TX

Others of PRR, NYC, MILW, L&N, and B&O in Los Angeles

Of course these are exceptions to the rule and made up a very small percentage, but it did happen.

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 7:22 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars

 

 

Friends,

This discussion sent me to my WP resources to see what I could find on livestock shipments on one of my favorite roads. Not much, I'm afraid.

In Jim Eager's WESTERN PACIFIC COLOR GUIDE he offers us a photo of WP 38' SM 75656. This car was photographed in San Marcos, Texas, in June 1945 (Why?). It was built in 1924-25 as a clone of SP's S-40-8 class. There were 200 of these cars, numbered 75501-75699. In 1937 100 cars were converted to double-deck as 75101-75200. The single-deck cars were gone by the late 1950s (many converted to outfit cars), but 96 double-deckers were still in hog service between Salt Lake City and San Francisco as late as 1959. WP also rostered 177 40' single-deck cars in series 75801-76232 as late as 1959, some serving into the early 1970s in company materials service. There were also several earlier classes of WP stock cars, all gone by WWII.

I own a copy of WP Circular No. 167-E, which lists all the shippers the WP and its subsidiaries served (probably about 1957), plus those of connecting lines in various locations that could be reached by interchange. The notion that hogs were shipped to SF, sent me looking through several hundred customers in that city. Not one of the ten or so stockyards were served by the WP directly, including either location of the Union Stock Yard. All were on the SP. There is no indication which of these yards dealt in pigs, though probably Union handled almost anything.

WP and the D&RGW shared access to Union Stock Yards in Salt Lake City.

I did note that WP served a Hahn's plant in San Francisco. This plant probably dressed sides for retail distribution, as the product handled is described as "meat". Here's an excuse to run Hahn's reefers through the Feather River Canyon.

Sacramento Northern, a WP-subsidiary, served two packing plants at Peethill, a location in West Sacramento/Broderick on the Woodland Branch. Both Royal Packing Company and Superior Packing Company were small operations, each having a capacity of six cars. Sacramento Northern also served the Swanston Packing Company at the end of the short Swanston Branch (North Sacramento). This plant was gone before WWII.

Something to . . . uh . . . chew on.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/17/14 6:16 PM, 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Consider that a whole lot of stock shipments were made to public stockyards – Salt Lake City for example – where  only some of the animals were purchased and moved to adjacent slaughterhouses.  The other animals had to moved elsewhere for final processing.  Given that assumption it  stands to reason that car service rules would tend to use cars loaded to return to home territory but not always… certainly not where there was an imbalance between inbound and outbound loads.  And so it should be natural see loaded stock cars moving off rails.

 

The other consideration is the price of animals did vary regionally and some shippers would try and take advantage of that by shipping animals further than you would expect.  I’ve seen numerous examples in the ICC 1% waybill data… stock moving from Texas to Southern California – maybe SP to SP or ATSF to ATSF but not necessarily – from Utah to Northern California – maybe mostly SP and WP cars but the stockyards in San Francisco were on ATSF and SP tracks, and stock moving from Montana to Northern California which most certainly would have included foreign road cars somewhere on that journey.

 

Last, the ICC !% waybill data does show non-animal shipments in stockcars ranging from watermelons to sewer pipe.

 

So yeah, stockcars on foreign roads were normal… but WRT your layout you should be thinking of the context in which those could reasonably occur.

 

Dave Nelson

 
Tim O'Connor
 

Along with others examples already mentioned, frequent sightings of
> west coast stock cars (SP, UP and even NP) on the PRR seem to suggest
> that there were certainly plenty of cars that traveled across the
> entire nation.

I think many of the sightings of off-road stock cars are due to short
term lending, or Car Service Directives, where cars went from areas where
they were surplus to areas where there was a "seasonal rush".

Livestock movements were either pasture-to-pasture moves (seasonal) or
they were pasture-to-market or market-to-meatpacker. There were large
"stock markets" in the west (Denver, Sioux City, Kansas City, Chicago, etc).
Livestock arrived, got sorted out, and was sold. Then the livestock was
either slaughtered locally, or was shipped off again to meatpackers.
It's almost unimaginable that a carload of cows would be interchanged from
the UP at Council Bluffs, moved to Chicago on any of 7 different railroads,
and then interchanged to PRR! But a UP or NP stock car could easily have been
loaded in Chicago and then travelled on the PRR to Philadelphia (or wherever)
on a less-than-28-hours schedule to a meatpacker.

Anyone remember the giant Kansas City floods in the 1950's? As a teen I read
an issue of Trains magazine that covered the floods and in that article they
mentioned that the B&O and PRR had to lend their stock cars to western roads
because so many western stock cars had been damaged in the deep waters that
covered so many Kansas City freight yards. That was the first time I'd heard
of the ICC's power to order freight car redistribution!

Tim O'Connor
Tim O'Connor
 

Bill, any idea of the routing? Roseville is 60 miles from Peoria,
where's the NYC (Peoria & Eastern) could have received the cars. I
can't imagine any other route that could have gotten them to Albany
in less than 28 hours.

The abundance of UP cars probably is a reflection of the massive surplus
of stock cars on the UP by 1959-1960 as massive changes in meatpacking
and stock raising was well underway by then.

The OST/OSF is most likely OSL (Oregon Short Line, a UP subsidiary)

Tim O'Connor

Steve Holding, a retired BNSF dispatcher, had a presentation at the fall Burlington Route Historical Society meet using agent reports from the CB&Q station at Roseville, Illinois. The period of available record was from the late 1950s into the mid 1960s. It showed the various commodities shipped and received at the end of a branch line during the period.

Hogs were being shipped from this station to Tobin Packing Co on the NYC in Albany and Rochester NY.

Nov 1959 - 28 cars shipped. 2 SLSX, 21 UP, 4 D&RGW and 1 NYC. Avg 132 Hogs per car. - 3 cars to Rochester.
Dec 1959 - 32 cars shipped. 2 ATSF, 3 SP, 20 UP, 5 D&RGW and 1 ORL? Avg 136 Hogs per car - 1 car to Rochester.
Jan 1960 - 24 cars shipped. 1 CB&Q, 1 NYC, 21 UP and 1 OST/OSF? Avg 134 Hogs per car.
Feb 1960 - 29 cars shipped. 3 ATSF, 2 SP and 24 UP. Avg 124 Hogs per car - 2 cars to Rochester.
Mar 1960 - 30 cars shipped. 2 B&O, 1 NP, 3 SP, and 24 UP. Avg 135 Hogs per car.
April 1960 - 19 cars shipped. 1 D&RGW, 1 OSL, and 17 UP. Avg 130 Hogs per car.
May 1960 - 24 cars shipped. 2 CB&Q, 1 OSL, 1 SLSX, 2 SP and 18 UP. Avg 124 Hogs per car.
June 1960 - 25 cars shipped. 14 CB&Q and 11 UP. Avg 127 Hogs per car.
July 1960 - 18 cars shipped. 15 CB&Q and 3 UP. Avg 132 Hogs per car.

If not shown to Rochester, all the remaining went to the packing plant at Albany.

Bill Hirt
arved_grass
 

The "Great Flood of 1951?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1951

I hadn't heard of it before. Thanks for getting me to look it up. Learned something today.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 12/18/14, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bridge Traffic and Stock cars
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, December 18, 2014, 9:08 AM

> Along with others examples already mentioned,
frequent sightings of

> west coast stock cars (SP, UP and even NP) on the PRR
seem to suggest

> that there were certainly plenty of cars that
traveled across the

> entire nation.



I think many of the sightings of off-road stock cars are due
to short

term lending, or Car Service Directives, where cars went
from areas where

they were surplus to areas where there was a "seasonal
rush".



Livestock movements were either pasture-to-pasture moves
(seasonal) or

they were pasture-to-market or market-to-meatpacker. There
were large

"stock markets" in the west (Denver, Sioux City,
Kansas City, Chicago, etc).

Livestock arrived, got sorted out, and was sold. Then the
livestock was

either slaughtered locally, or was shipped off again to
meatpackers.

It's almost unimaginable that a carload of cows would be
interchanged from

the UP at Council Bluffs, moved to Chicago on any of 7
different railroads,

and then interchanged to PRR! But a UP or NP stock car could
easily have been

loaded in Chicago and then travelled on the PRR to
Philadelphia (or wherever)

on a less-than-28-hours schedule to a meatpacker.



Anyone remember the giant Kansas City floods in the
1950's? As a teen I read

an issue of Trains magazine that covered the floods and in
that article they

mentioned that the B&O and PRR had to lend their stock
cars to western roads

because so many western stock cars had been damaged in the
deep waters that

covered so many Kansas City freight yards. That was the
first time I'd heard

of the ICC's power to order freight car
redistribution!



Tim O'Connor
asychis@...
 

I wonder if stockcars from off-line roads ending up in unusual places was all that uncommon.  I have 63 conductor's records of stockcars from the last year and a half of the Missouri Pacific's small, one mixed train per day Warsaw subdivision, 6/14/44 to 2/26/46 showing stockcars from 22 foreign roads and three subsidiaries.  Anything from PRR to SP and most roads in between.  And not unique single car movements.  For instance there are 20 AT&SF cars, 6 C&NW, three each SP and T&NO.  These may have been robbed by the MP at Sedalia off of Eastern Division trains to fill the need for stock movements on this branch.  If so, the MP definitely preyed upon AT&SF stockcars!
 
Jerry Michels
 
 
RR Type Cars %
Alton SM 1 0.73
AT&SF SC 2 1.46
AT&SF SM 18 13.14
C&NW  SC 6 4.38
CB&Q  SM 3 2.19
CGW SM 1 0.73
CStPM&O  SC 1 0.73
D&RGW  SM 3 2.19
GASX  SM 1 0.73
IC  SC 1 0.73
IC  SM 3 2.19
I-GN  SM 6 4.38
MILW  SD 2 1.46
MILW  SM 1 0.73
MKT SM 1 0.73
MP SM 75 54.74
NKP SM 1 0.73
NOT&M SM 1 0.73
NP  SC 1 0.73
PRR  SC 1 0.73
SLSF SM 1 0.73
SP  SM 3 2.19
T&NO  SM 3 2.19
UP  SC 1 0.73
Total   137 100

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