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UTLX Tank Car Designations

Dave Parker
 

Steve: 

Back in November, you straightened me out on UTLX's use of the "Z" designation for tank cars not of their design (i.e., not X-3s).  I am looking at another LifeLike P2k kit for an AC&F Type 21, this one 8000 gallons.  It has "Z20" stenciled on the end. The build date is 1920.

Do you know was the UTLX practice to stencil the Z followed by the build year, or is there another explanation here?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Dave,

 

I have never been able to figure out a code for the use of Z’s on the end of UTLX tank car.  Class Z cars were, in a 1952 UTLX car listing, were those built to Car Builder’s design, rather than the UTLX designs, such as V, X and X-3. 

 

In photos that I have looked at, some have just Z, another has ZX, yet another says ZX02.  I have a copy of the photo that shows Z20, it is apparently taken at some time before the 1950’s as the car appears to have the split version of the K brake systems.  But cars in this series are still listed as Class Z cars in the 1952 UTLX car listing.  On the other hand, I have a photo of a car built by GAT in 1920 for UTLX’s Products Tank Line (PX.)  In the end view, only the Z is marked on the end.

 

Sorry that I can’t provide anything more definitive.

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 6:38 PM
To: 'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]
Subject: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations

 

 

Steve: 

 

Back in November, you straightened me out on UTLX's use of the "Z" designation for tank cars not of their design (i.e., not X-3s).  I am looking at another LifeLike P2k kit for an AC&F Type 21, this one 8000 gallons.  It has "Z20" stenciled on the end. The build date is 1920.

 

Do you know was the UTLX practice to stencil the Z followed by the build year, or is there another explanation here?

 

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

 

Dave Parker

Riverside, CA

Dave Parker
 

Steve:

Thanks very much, that is helpful.  Sounds like Union was not very consistent in their use of the "Z" designation.

I wonder if the photo you have showing "Z20"  formed the basis of LifeLike's lettering on the T21 kit that I have (maybe with Richard's input?).  The kit is for UTLX 77340, with what seems to be conflicting built date info (both 1920 and 1923 can be found on the sides).  Can you tell me anything more about that particular photo? 

Interesting you should mention split K brakes.  I went through all the builder's photos in Kaminski's book.  "Type 21" (i.e., non radial) cars built from 1919 to 1922 had KD brakes, with rare exception.  1923 seems to be a transitional year, while cars built from 1924 into the early 1930s all had KC brakes.  I am wondering why AC&F (or its customers) might have preferred KD brakes initially, and what then prompted the switch to KC.  Do you have any thoughts?

Thanks again.

Dave Parker


On Monday, January 19, 2015 9:05 PM, "'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Dave,
 
I have never been able to figure out a code for the use of Z’s on the end of UTLX tank car.  Class Z cars were, in a 1952 UTLX car listing, were those built to Car Builder’s design, rather than the UTLX designs, such as V, X and X-3. 
 
In photos that I have looked at, some have just Z, another has ZX, yet another says ZX02.  I have a copy of the photo that shows Z20, it is apparently taken at some time before the 1950’s as the car appears to have the split version of the K brake systems.  But cars in this series are still listed as Class Z cars in the 1952 UTLX car listing.  On the other hand, I have a photo of a car built by GAT in 1920 for UTLX’s Products Tank Line (PX.)  In the end view, only the Z is marked on the end.
 
Sorry that I can’t provide anything more definitive.
 
Regards,
Steve Hile
 
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 6:38 PM
To: 'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]
Subject: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations
 
 
Steve: 
 
Back in November, you straightened me out on UTLX's use of the "Z" designation for tank cars not of their design (i.e., not X-3s).  I am looking at another LifeLike P2k kit for an AC&F Type 21, this one 8000 gallons.  It has "Z20" stenciled on the end. The build date is 1920.
 
Do you know was the UTLX practice to stencil the Z followed by the build year, or is there another explanation here?
 
Thanks for any advice you can provide.
 
Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

Sounds like Union was not very consistent in their use of the "Z" designation.

     I very much doubt this was true. UTL almost certainly had a definite system. We just don't know what it was.

I went through all the builder's photos in Kaminski's book.  "Type 21" (i.e., non radial) cars built from 1919 to 1922 had KD brakes, with rare exception.  1923 seems to be a transitional year, while cars built from 1924 into the early 1930s all had KC brakes.  I am wondering why AC&F (or its customers) might have preferred KD brakes initially, and what then prompted the switch to KC.  Do you have any thoughts?

     Remember that Type 21 refers only to the underframe. Tanks varied considerably and were for all intents and purposes chosen by buyers, as were brakes and other appliances. There may indeed be correlations of the kind you describe, but they don't have anything directly to do with AC&F Types.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Steve and Barb Hile
 

The challenge is made more difficult by the fact the relatively few photos we have to show the ends of class Z cars were taken over a span of more than 30 years.  So, the basic Z could continue while what follows it, if anything, can vary with time.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 11:40 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations

 

 

Dave Parker wrote:

 

Sounds like Union was not very consistent in their use of the "Z" designation.

 

     I very much doubt this was true. UTL almost certainly had a definite system. We just don't know what it was.



I went through all the builder's photos in Kaminski's book.  "Type 21" (i.e., non radial) cars built from 1919 to 1922 had KD brakes, with rare exception.  1923 seems to be a transitional year, while cars built from 1924 into the early 1930s all had KC brakes.  I am wondering why AC&F (or its customers) might have preferred KD brakes initially, and what then prompted the switch to KC.  Do you have any thoughts?

 

     Remember that Type 21 refers only to the underframe. Tanks varied considerably and were for all intents and purposes chosen by buyers, as were brakes and other appliances. There may indeed be correlations of the kind you describe, but they don't have anything directly to do with AC&F Types.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Dave,

 

The photo of 94785 was used by Richard in an article on the P2k 8000 gallon Type 21 cars in the February 1998 RMJ.  The photo was taken in 1945 and if from the MD McCarter collection.  The car shows as built 5-20, with the Z20 on the end.  It had heaters, as was evidenced by the round cap high on the end, where the coils had been inserted.  77340 is, most likely, a similar car, without heaters.  I am quite sure that Richard worked with LL to identify good car number candidates.

 

UTLX purchased various car fleets in the late 20’s and 30’s, but data is sketchy on which ones became which car numbers on UTLX.  But I can tell you that both of the above numbers did exist in the 1936 tariff listing for UTLX and in the 1952 listing of cars as 8000 gallon cars.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 10:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations

 

 

Steve:

 

Thanks very much, that is helpful.  Sounds like Union was not very consistent in their use of the "Z" designation.

 

I wonder if the photo you have showing "Z20"  formed the basis of LifeLike's lettering on the T21 kit that I have (maybe with Richard's input?).  The kit is for UTLX 77340, with what seems to be conflicting built date info (both 1920 and 1923 can be found on the sides).  Can you tell me anything more about that particular photo? 

 

Interesting you should mention split K brakes.  I went through all the builder's photos in Kaminski's book.  "Type 21" (i.e., non radial) cars built from 1919 to 1922 had KD brakes, with rare exception.  1923 seems to be a transitional year, while cars built from 1924 into the early 1930s all had KC brakes.  I am wondering why AC&F (or its customers) might have preferred KD brakes initially, and what then prompted the switch to KC.  Do you have any thoughts?

 

Thanks again.

 

Dave Parker

 

On Monday, January 19, 2015 9:05 PM, "'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]" wrote:

 

 

Dave,

 

I have never been able to figure out a code for the use of Z’s on the end of UTLX tank car.  Class Z cars were, in a 1952 UTLX car listing, were those built to Car Builder’s design, rather than the UTLX designs, such as V, X and X-3. 

 

In photos that I have looked at, some have just Z, another has ZX, yet another says ZX02.  I have a copy of the photo that shows Z20, it is apparently taken at some time before the 1950’s as the car appears to have the split version of the K brake systems.  But cars in this series are still listed as Class Z cars in the 1952 UTLX car listing.  On the other hand, I have a photo of a car built by GAT in 1920 for UTLX’s Products Tank Line (PX.)  In the end view, only the Z is marked on the end.

 

Sorry that I can’t provide anything more definitive.

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 6:38 PM
To: 'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]
Subject: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations

 

 

Steve: 

 

Back in November, you straightened me out on UTLX's use of the "Z" designation for tank cars not of their design (i.e., not X-3s).  I am looking at another LifeLike P2k kit for an AC&F Type 21, this one 8000 gallons.  It has "Z20" stenciled on the end. The build date is 1920.

 

Do you know was the UTLX practice to stencil the Z followed by the build year, or is there another explanation here?

 

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

 

Dave Parker

Riverside, CA

 

Dave Parker
 

Steve:

Thanks, this too is very helpful.  The 94785 number is consistent with my 1935 OERE, but not the 1930, suggesting an early 1930s acquisition by Union.  The 77340 number is consistent with number ranges found in both OEREs, suggesting acquisition sometime in the 1920s.

I had no problem finding the 1919 tank car tariff listing (Google book), but I gather the 1936 version is very scarce and harder to track down.  Could you perhaps provide a bit more bibliographic information so that I can try to locate it in a library collection?

Thanks!

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 10:30 PM, "'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Dave,
 
The photo of 94785 was used by Richard in an article on the P2k 8000 gallon Type 21 cars in the February 1998 RMJ.  The photo was taken in 1945 and if from the MD McCarter collection.  The car shows as built 5-20, with the Z20 on the end.  It had heaters, as was evidenced by the round cap high on the end, where the coils had been inserted.  77340 is, most likely, a similar car, without heaters.  I am quite sure that Richard worked with LL to identify good car number candidates.
 
UTLX purchased various car fleets in the late 20’s and 30’s, but data is sketchy on which ones became which car numbers on UTLX.  But I can tell you that both of the above numbers did exist in the 1936 tariff listing for UTLX and in the 1952 listing of cars as 8000 gallon cars.
 
Hope this is helpful.
 
Regards,
Steve Hile
 
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 10:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations
 
 
Steve:
 
Thanks very much, that is helpful.  Sounds like Union was not very consistent in their use of the "Z" designation.
 
I wonder if the photo you have showing "Z20"  formed the basis of LifeLike's lettering on the T21 kit that I have (maybe with Richard's input?).  The kit is for UTLX 77340, with what seems to be conflicting built date info (both 1920 and 1923 can be found on the sides).  Can you tell me anything more about that particular photo? 
 
Interesting you should mention split K brakes.  I went through all the builder's photos in Kaminski's book.  "Type 21" (i.e., non radial) cars built from 1919 to 1922 had KD brakes, with rare exception.  1923 seems to be a transitional year, while cars built from 1924 into the early 1930s all had KC brakes.  I am wondering why AC&F (or its customers) might have preferred KD brakes initially, and what then prompted the switch to KC.  Do you have any thoughts?
 
Thanks again.
 
Dave Parker
 
On Monday, January 19, 2015 9:05 PM, "'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]" wrote:
 
 
Dave,
 
I have never been able to figure out a code for the use of Z’s on the end of UTLX tank car.  Class Z cars were, in a 1952 UTLX car listing, were those built to Car Builder’s design, rather than the UTLX designs, such as V, X and X-3. 
 
In photos that I have looked at, some have just Z, another has ZX, yet another says ZX02.  I have a copy of the photo that shows Z20, it is apparently taken at some time before the 1950’s as the car appears to have the split version of the K brake systems.  But cars in this series are still listed as Class Z cars in the 1952 UTLX car listing.  On the other hand, I have a photo of a car built by GAT in 1920 for UTLX’s Products Tank Line (PX.)  In the end view, only the Z is marked on the end.
 
Sorry that I can’t provide anything more definitive.
 
Regards,
Steve Hile
 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 6:38 PM
To: 'Steve and Barb Hile' shile@... [STMFC]
Subject: [STMFC] UTLX Tank Car Designations
 
 
Steve: 
 
Back in November, you straightened me out on UTLX's use of the "Z" designation for tank cars not of their design (i.e., not X-3s).  I am looking at another LifeLike P2k kit for an AC&F Type 21, this one 8000 gallons.  It has "Z20" stenciled on the end. The build date is 1920.
 
Do you know was the UTLX practice to stencil the Z followed by the build year, or is there another explanation here?
 
Thanks for any advice you can provide.
 
Dave Parker
Riverside, CA
 


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