main@RealSTMFC.groups.io | Athearn container gondolas

genegreen1942@...

#130847

Athearn is currently offering at least two gondolas with loads of small containers. Athearn literature labels these as appropriate for 1980 to the present and, based on the paint schemes alone, that is likely correct.

Is the Athearn gondola model at least representative of a gondola built and in use before 1950? Before 1960? I assume it is not actually a model of any specific car.

I've been a fairly keen observer of the railroad scene since I got back from Germany in 1982 (with time out in 1986 and 1987 to go back to Germany for my last tour) and I really don't recall ever seeing such small containers at all. I have seen photos of similar containers going back to the late 1930s and 1940s but never "in the flesh."

How widespread was the use of such small contains in the late 1940s and early 1950s?

My research seems to indicate that the containers and gondola were dedicated to one another. That is, the gondola couldn't be used for any other purpose and the containers could only be carried in a gondola outfitted for that specific purpose. Can anyone confirm or refute?

Gene Green

Out in the Badlands of New Mexico

Benjamin Hom

#130848

Gene Green asked:
"Athearn is currently offering at least two gondolas with loads of small containers.   Athearn literature labels these as appropriate for 1980 to the present and, based on the paint schemes alone, that is likely correct."

Do you mean these?  (I'm unable to cut and paste links due to browser issues at work.  Thank you, NMCI.)
S/N ATH29287 - NS 29287
ATH29286 - CSX 379883
ATH29285 - BNSF 505349
ATH29238 - UP 697012
These paint schemes are at least four to five decades too new for both the cars and the containers.


"Is the Athearn gondola model at least representative of a gondola built and in use before 1950?  Before 1960?   I assume it is not actually a model of any specific car."

Define "representative".  This model is bogus and has no specific prototype.  It can be kitbashed into a prototype model (ex: DT&I gon from a previous Cocoa Beach Shake-N-Take) but isn't good for anything out of the box.  This is the model that spurred the formation of the STMFC group when Richard Hendrickson stated on the now defunct Freight Car List that the target audience for this model was "toy train bozos", a characterization some members took as a green light to start a flame war.


"My research seems to indicate that the containers and gondola were dedicated to one another.  That is, the gondola couldn't be used for any other purpose and the containers could only be carried in a gondola outfitted for that specific purpose.  Can anyone confirm or refute?"

True in the case of the Athearn containers, which represent two specific types of containers.  The orange cylindrical containers are for cement, while the silver ones are refrigerated containers.


Ben Hom

Tony Thompson

#130849

Ben Hom wrote:

This model is bogus and has no specific prototype. It can be kitbashed into a prototype model (ex: DT&I gon from a previous Cocoa Beach Shake-N-Take) but isn't good for anything out of the box. This is the model that spurred the formation of the STMFC group when Richard Hendrickson stated on the now defunct Freight Car List that the target audience for this model was "toy train bozos", a characterization some members took as a green light to start a flame war.

Leave us not forget that this Athearn gondola, certainly representing no prototype out of the box, CAN be kitbashed into MANY prototypes. Richard himself did a two-part article in Prototype Modeler back in the day, accomplishing reasonable models of eight different railroads' gondolas, though most had to be lengthened, side sills or ends modified, floors redone, etc.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>

#130851

Friends,

IIRC, both those containers go back to Athearn's kits and RTR trainset cars of the late 1950s. I seem to remember seeing something like the refrigerated container in the CBC, possibly the 1953 edition.

Yes, some containers were specific to their cars, and possibly not ever removed. The D&H had some cement container gondolas that had holes cut in the sides and couldn't be used for anything else, and I think the containers were permanent. OTOH, some PRR containers were definitely meant to be transferred to trucks for off-line delivery. In any case, probably many gondolas or flat cars carrying containers had bracing and/or tie-downs that made them unsuitable for other loads.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff

Show quoted text

On 1/14/15 3:45 PM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] wrote:

Gene Green asked:
"Athearn is currently offering at least two gondolas with loads of small containers. Athearn literature labels these as appropriate for 1980 to the present and, based on the paint schemes alone, that is likely correct."

Do you mean these? (I'm unable to cut and paste links due to browser issues at work. Thank you, NMCI.)
S/N ATH29287 - NS 29287
ATH29286 - CSX 379883
ATH29285 - BNSF 505349
ATH29238 - UP 697012
These paint schemes are at least four to five decades too new for both the cars and the containers.

"Is the Athearn gondola model at least representative of a gondola built and in use before 1950? Before 1960? I assume it is not actually a model of any specific car."

Define "representative". This model is bogus and has no specific prototype. It can be kitbashed into a prototype model (ex: DT&I gon from a previous Cocoa Beach Shake-N-Take) but isn't good for anything out of the box. This is the model that spurred the formation of the STMFC group when Richard Hendrickson stated on the now defunct Freight Car List that the target audience for this model was "toy train bozos", a characterization some members took as a green light to start a flame war.

"My research seems to indicate that the containers and gondola were dedicated to one another. That is, the gondola couldn't be used for any other purpose and the containers could only be carried in a gondola outfitted for that specific purpose. Can anyone confirm or refute?"

True in the case of the Athearn containers, which represent two specific types of containers. The orange cylindrical containers are for cement, while the silver ones are refrigerated containers.

Ben Hom

arved_grass

#130852

NMCI? Richard Hendrickson's "Toy Train Bozos?" You have me in stitches.

For those that don't know, NMCI = Navy/Marine Corp Internet, or as we say at work, Non-Mission Capable Internet, although there are many more versions of this. Basically, the company in charge is responsible for securing the network against cyber attack. Evidently, actually being able  to use the internet is not a contractual requirement.

The round containers of ATH29286 seem similar to the containers used by several railroads, Here's a photo of DLW cars with similar containers:

http://s114.photobucket.com/user/Chris333_33/media/DLW.jpg.html

Here's a NYC car that at least vaguely resembles the Athearn model (ie a gondola with those containers):

http://www.readingmodeler.com/media/kunena/attachments/122/NYCCementContainerGon.jpg

The rectangular container isn't familiar to me.

The gondola is another story. I think the consensus is the Athearn 50' gondola has no prototype. Irv did claim his models were "Scaled from official blueprints." I guess it could be argued by a good lawyer that if Irv drew the blueprints, they were as official as anything else. He never claimed they were official RAILROAD blueprints. However, I've seen a reference on Trainorders.com that the car could be a GBRS class gondola made in 1959 for the New Haven.

Don't take my word for it. I know diddly squat about the New Haven. As my professors would say:

"The proof is left as an exercise to the student."

(GD&R)

At the very least, I'm told fishbelly sides and fishbelly center sills were mutually exclusive of one another, so I side with those saying there's no prototype for the Athearn 50' gondola.

A lot depends on how accurate you want to be. If you're one of those "Toy Train Bozos," it probably doesn't matter (but, then, you probably wouldn't be here). Even if it is a 1959 New Haven car, I don't think it was used to carry these containers, and even if it was, it's very close to being at the end of this groups cut-off date. Maybe it's an acceptable stand-in for a car you feel the need to model. Nobody should decide that for you. If I wanted to model either of those cars above, I'd probably go for it, and be wrong, but it's certainly better than going without.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@yahoo.com or Arved@I-Do-Photography.com
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

Show quoted text

On Wed, 1/14/15, Benjamin Hom b.hom@att.net [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas
 To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
 Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2015, 3:45 PM


  











 Gene Green asked:

 "Athearn is currently offering at least two gondolas
 with loads of small containers.   Athearn literature labels
 these as appropriate for 1980 to the present and, based on
 the paint schemes alone, that is likely correct."



 Do you mean these?  (I'm unable to cut and paste links
 due to browser issues at work.  Thank you, NMCI.)

 S/N ATH29287 - NS 29287

 ATH29286 - CSX 379883

 ATH29285 - BNSF 505349

 ATH29238 - UP 697012

 These paint schemes are at least four to five decades too
 new for both the cars and the containers.



 "Is the Athearn gondola model at least representative
 of a gondola built and in use before 1950?  Before 1960?   I
 assume it is not actually a model of any specific
 car."



 Define "representative".  This model is bogus and
 has no specific prototype.  It can be kitbashed into a
 prototype model (ex: DT&I gon from a previous Cocoa
 Beach Shake-N-Take) but isn't good for anything out of
 the box.  This is the model that spurred the formation of
 the STMFC group when Richard Hendrickson stated on the now
 defunct Freight Car List that the target audience for this
 model was "toy train bozos", a characterization
 some members took as a green light to start a flame war.



 "My research seems to indicate that the containers and
 gondola were dedicated to one another.  That is, the gondola
 couldn't be used for any other purpose and the
 containers could only be carried in a gondola outfitted for
 that specific purpose.  Can anyone confirm or
 refute?"



 True in the case of the Athearn containers, which represent
 two specific types of containers.  The orange cylindrical
 containers are for cement, while the silver ones are
 refrigerated containers.



 Ben Hom











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Benjamin Hom

#130861

Arved Grass wrote:
"The gondola is another story. I think the consensus is the Athearn 50' gondola has no prototype. Irv did claim his models were "Scaled from official blueprints." I guess it could be argued by a good lawyer that if Irv drew the blueprints, they were as official as anything else. He never claimed they were official RAILROAD blueprints. However, I've seen a reference on Trainorders.com that the car could be a GBRS class gondola made in 1959 for the New Haven.

Don't take my word for it. I know diddly squat about the New Haven. As my professors would say:

'The proof is left as an exercise to the student.'"

Sorry, your source on Trainorders.com is wrong.  The Athearn gon model is bogus for New Haven.  It's too short and has the wrong location of side stakes. NH 62000-62014, 52 ft 6 in IL cars, Bethlehem, built 1959.

Ben Hom

Benjamin Hom

#130864

Arved Grass wrote:
"Here's a NYC car that at least vaguely resembles the Athearn model (ie a gondola with those containers):
http://www.readingmodeler.com/media/kunena/attachments/122/NYCCementContainerGon.jpg

NYC 501640-501739, Lot 755-G, 40 cars modified from Lot 377-G 46 ft USRA steel gons.  (Series also incudes 60 cars converted from similar Lot 557-G). Here's a larger version of this photo from Terry Link's website:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-501660.jpg

The Athearn containers can be used with the Westerfield or Walthers models to do this car.

Ben Hom

Tim O'Connor

#130865

If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor

Todd Horton

#130869

I’ve wondered if the cylindrical contains were built by one company and several railroads purchased them for use in cement service? I know the NYC and the LV had them, I seem to recall CNJ as well? Todd Horton

Show quoted text

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor

Schuyler Larrabee

#130872

Plus Lackawanna and D&H.

Schuyler

I’ve wondered if the cylindrical contains were built by one company and several railroads purchased them for use in cement service? I know the NYC and the LV had them, I seem to recall CNJ as well? Todd Horton

Show quoted text

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor

Tim O'Connor

#130873

I vaguely recall that the origin of those containers were the massive
construction projects in New York by Robert Moses, which used an ocean
of cement. So it makes sense that all of the "anthracite" railroads
that served the New York City area, and upstate, had them.

The PRR also had containers but theirs was a boxy design, which is still
available I think from Westerfield. I've seen 1960's photos of the PRR
containers still in use -- but not in Iowa, Gene! :-)

Tim O'Connor

Show quoted text

Plus Lackawanna and D&H.
Schuyler
I�ve wondered if the cylindrical contains were built by one company and several railroads purchased them for use in cement service? I know the NYC and the LV had them, I seem to recall CNJ as well? Todd Horton

From: STMFC@... [ mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor

Brian Carlson

#130874

The air activated containers were developed by MDT (The LCL Corporation) in the 1930's. Much of the cement headed to NYC. The DL&W, D&H, LV and NYC had them. a hobby shop in Allentown made the correct decals for them in the 90's not sure if they are around now. Not everything is on the internet, but if anyone has Morning Sun's Erie/DL&W Rolling Stock Color Guide, see pages 96-97 for more information. Not the containers were numbered like freight cars and other rolling stock. DL&W's were 23000-23684. The DL&W at one point had 90 gondolas converted, most carried 5 containers each.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY

Brian carlson

Show quoted text

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 11:03 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

I’ve wondered if the cylindrical contains were built by one company and several railroads purchased them for use in cement service? I know the NYC and the LV had them, I seem to recall CNJ as well? Todd Horton

Jeffrey White

#130877

The 1955 IC Freight Car Diagram book shows 24 low side (3 1/2' sides) steel gons modified for containers.

The 1960 Equipment List shows 37 steel gons with 5 foot sides equipped to carry calcium carbide in containers. AAR designation LG inside length 37'8" capacity 1672 cu ft, 140,000 pounds.

Somewhere I have a photo of one of the low side gons.

Jeff White
Alma, IL

Andy Jackson

#130888

Speaking of containers in gondolas, in the early real container days used to see 40' cans in gondolas in the early '80s. This was on the Santa Fe going EB thru Fullerton CA. Guess they were so short on even pig flats they used whatever would work.
Andy Jackson
Bellflower CA

dahminator68

#130894

Hello:

The Westerfield Models Containers are still available, as are the decals for them.

Please see our #1200 Series Kits for the HB1A & H4 PRR Containers and decals.

Please see our #8100 Series Kits for the LCL Containers, for NYC, B&O & Reading.

Thank you,

Andrew Dahm

westerfieldmodels@...

Show quoted text

From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

I vaguely recall that the origin of those containers were the massive
construction projects in New York by Robert Moses, which used an ocean
of cement. So it makes sense that all of the "anthracite" railroads
that served the New York City area, and upstate, had them.

The PRR also had containers but theirs was a boxy design, which is still
available I think from Westerfield. I've seen 1960's photos of the PRR
containers still in use -- but not in Iowa, Gene! :-)

Tim O'Connor

Plus Lackawanna and D&H.
Schuyler
I�e wondered if the cylindrical contains were built by one company and several railroads purchased them for use in cement service? I know the NYC and the LV had them, I seem to recall CNJ as well? Todd Horton

From: STMFC@... [ mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor

caboose9792@...

#130900

The IC server the calcium carbide plant at Calvert city KY. As late as the mid 2000's the PAL handed off carbide containers to the BNSF on an equipped car for containers. The metal alloy plant next to the carbide plant got foundry sand from nearby Murray KY in containers. Routing was by way of the Paducah KY to the L&N and the waybills I have indicate a few L&N cars were in assigned service.

IC lettering diagrams should still be available for the IC gons via the Illinois railway museum's Pullman library. The reference number is IC-H740 when ordering.

Mark Rickert

Show quoted text

In a message dated 1/15/2015 1:13:18 A.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:

The 1955 IC Freight Car Diagram book shows 24 low side (3 1/2' sides)
steel gons modified for containers.

The 1960 Equipment List shows 37 steel gons with 5 foot sides equipped
to carry calcium carbide in containers. AAR designation LG inside length
37'8" capacity 1672 cu ft, 140,000 pounds.

Somewhere I have a photo of one of the low side gons.

Jeff White
Alma, IL

RICH CHAPIN

#130959

I have a copy of the L.C.L. Container Corp “Diagrams and Descriptions L.C.L. Containers” dated 1/31/1956 [obtained from Smithsonian while researching LV container ops]

It lists these roads with containers: N.Y.C.; B&O; I.C.; M.P.L.; M.I.R.R.; L.V.; D.L.&W.; D&H. Pittsburgh Metallurgical Co. also listed

Types were air activated cement [round ones], drop bottom coke; drop bottom lime; controlled flow bulk; calcium carbide; drop bottom ferro silicon and portable refrigerator.

Rich Chapin

Clark Propst

#130988

Gene, I asked a friend about coke containers in gons. Below is his reply.

Oliver (tractor plant in Charles City Ia.) normally got all their coke in container cars all seem to be 50 foot Kopper’s company private gondolas, and these were what I saw moving on IC trains through Lyle (Minn.) in my School days. I think, the routing may have been: Who ever switched the Kopper’s refinery to Minneapolis-M & St.L-Albert lea-IC Charles city - CCW delivery..

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

caboose9792@...

#131148

I don't think anyone mentioned the RP cyc #10 on the NYC cars and the there containers.

Mark Rickert

In a message dated 1/16/2015 6:06:21 A.M. Central Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:

I have a copy of the L.C.L. Container Corp “Diagrams and Descriptions L.C.L. Containers” dated 1/31/1956 [obtained from Smithsonian while researching LV container ops]

It lists these roads with containers: N.Y.C.; B&O; I.C.; M.P.L.; M.I.R.R.; L.V.; D.L.&W.; D&H. Pittsburgh Metallurgical Co. also listed

Types were air activated cement [round ones], drop bottom coke; drop bottom lime; controlled flow bulk; calcium carbide; drop bottom ferro silicon and portable refrigerator.

Rich Chapin

.

Benjamin Hom

#131149

Mark Rickert wrote:
"I don't think anyone mentioned the RP Cyc #10 on the NYC cars and the the[i]r containers."

Because in this case it doesn't answer the mail.  The cars covered are containers for handling LCL carried on cars specifically built for them, NOT the cement containers and converted gons in question.  Read the article next time before referencing it.

Ben Hom