[EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

The area of container gons has not been fully explored. There is very poor resolution on many of them, even though most of them appear in ORERs.

In addition to the cylindrical cement containers, and oddball insulated (refrigerated?) containers, there were also the open-topped coke containers, and hatch-topped drop bottom or hopper bottom bulk materials containers, as well as the merchandise (LCL) containers.

Roads that had bulk containers included: B&O, DT&I, Erie, L&N, LV, Monon, NKP, N&W, NYC, P&LE, P&WV, PRR, RDG, and WM. Lots of these were used shipping things like powdered dolomite and other additives for the steel industry or other heavy industries.

I have seen them in photos in many locations all over the country, since they were serving industries in many locations.

The Westerfield PRR containers, and also their Youngstown containers are very nice. They build into very realistic loads. The previously-available Walthers Youngstown containers, and coke containers, and not quite as "fine", but still credible. They are also separate containers, which permits one to set up partial, or badly-loaded loads. At least on the PRR, they had container gons that did not have the truck capacity to carry 80-100 tons of containers, so they blocked portions of the center of the car, to permit no more than nine (+ or -) containers. Those are very interesting cars visually.

Some gons had very serious interior blocking, some had none. Some containers gons were fitted with replacement wire mesh flooring, except over the brake hardware and trucks. I am not aware of any offerings for these in anything but brass.

The NYC had a very large group of interesting container cars I would love to see more research on. You could read and see more on the PRR gons in the PRR gon book.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas




If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


genegreen1942@...
 

This container business seems to be more eastern than Midwestern.  (For those of us from Iowa, Indiana and Ohio are eastern states.)  I'm trying to discover a use for a container load on what I am modeling but until I do . . .

My C&NW loop from a hidden yard through Marshalltown and back to the hidden yard is intended for a passenger train and a freight train in each direction more as part of the scenery.  The 4 tracks in the hidden yard will end up having about 20 feet of parking space each which means the freight trains will be rather short.  Those two freights should probably not have any unusual cars - depressed-center flat with transformer, container gondola, poultry car, etc. - that would attract undue attention.

Yes, I noticed - too late - that I posted a message on containers on the wrong thread.  Thanks for fixing that, Clark.  Cement is going to have to move in box cars.

Gene Green
Out in the Badlands of New Mexico


genegreen1942@...
 

Apropos lifting lugs; doesn't that imply that the containers would be removed from the gondolas for loading or unloading or both?  Wouldn't that further imply that dedicated facilities for loading and unloading would be needed at each end?  Doesn't that get one into an industry large enough to warrant special cars that can't be loaded in both directions, with some sort of crane at each end, a significant amount of traffic and, in general, something on the large size for a small model railroad.

Gene Green
Out in the Badlands of New Mexico


Carl Gustafson
 

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:53:52AM -0800, genegreen1942@... [STMFC] wrote:
Apropos lifting lugs; doesn't that imply that the containers would be removed from the gondolas for loading or unloading or both? Wouldn't that further imply that dedicated facilities for loading and unloading would be needed at each end? Doesn't that get one into an industry large enough to warrant special cars that can't be loaded in both directions, with some sort of crane at each end, a significant amount of traffic and, in general, something on the large size for a small model railroad.
My understanding of the cement container business is that the containers would come (from the cement
area around Portland, Pa) into the New Jersey docks, then get floated across the river to the
Manhattan piers. The containers would then be transported (by truck?) to the construction site to be
mixed up and used as needed.

The same railroads also transported cement in approx. 1900 cu. ft. covered hoppers, and presumably
bags in box cars.

Ron Parisi (maybe not spelled right) gave an presentation on how he made his containers/gondolas at
the last Valley Forge RPM. His models were present in the model room. He's very entertaining, to say
the least.

Carl Gustafson


Todd Horton
 

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones.  The containers are listed as being 7’ 6” in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller than the NYC version.  Both of these are lettered  “ The LCL Corporation”   Todd Horton

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 12:31 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

The area of container gons has not been fully explored. There is very poor resolution on many of them, even though most of them appear in ORERs.

In addition to the cylindrical cement containers, and oddball insulated (refrigerated?) containers, there were also the open-topped coke containers, and hatch-topped drop bottom or hopper bottom bulk materials containers, as well as the merchandise (LCL) containers.

Roads that had bulk containers included: B&O, DT&I, Erie, L&N, LV, Monon, NKP, N&W, NYC, P&LE, P&WV, PRR, RDG, and WM. Lots of these were used shipping things like powdered dolomite and other additives for the steel industry or other heavy industries.

I have seen them in photos in many locations all over the country, since they were serving industries in many locations.

The Westerfield PRR containers, and also their Youngstown containers are very nice. They build into very realistic loads. The previously-available Walthers Youngstown containers, and coke containers, and not quite as "fine", but still credible. They are also separate containers, which permits one to set up partial, or badly-loaded loads. At least on the PRR, they had container gons that did not have the truck capacity to carry 80-100 tons of containers, so they blocked portions of the center of the car, to permit no more than nine (+ or -) containers. Those are very interesting cars visually.

Some gons had very serious interior blocking, some had none. Some containers gons were fitted with replacement wire mesh flooring, except over the brake hardware and trucks. I am not aware of any offerings for these in anything but brass.

The NYC had a very large group of interesting container cars I would love to see more research on. You could read and see more on the PRR gons in the PRR gon book.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Athearn container gondolas

If you watch the 1960's movie "In The Heat Of The Night" there is scene
that features a Missouri Pacific train passing overhead and there are three
gondolas filled with containers that look remarkably like the Athearn "box"
style containers. The other cars in the train are covered hoppers so I'm
going to guess this train is moving cement cars. (It was filmed in Illinois.)

But I agree with Ben there were some insulated/LCL containers that also had
a similar appearance to the boxy Athearn containers. MP operated a number of
different kinds of bulk and LCL containers.

I've only ever seen the cylindrical containers in LV gondolas. I bought decals
for them from someone here years ago -- although the name escapes me now. The
gondolas can be "stood in" by modifying the Athearn gondola to remove the deep
fishbelly, cutting holes in the side, and putting steel braces on the floor and
top chord to hold the containers in place. You can detail the containers to
greatly improve their appearance, especially the lifting lugs.

Tim O'Connor

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


proto48er
 

Guys -

I think the larger air activated containers were hauled five to a car in the NYC USRA gondolas, while the smaller (ie., shorter in height) air activated containers were hauled six to a car in the same, but differently equipped, NYC gons.  The six smaller-container cars were placed in service in about 1937, while the five larger-container cars were placed in service in about 1945 - this is the car in the "builders photo" that was linked here in a previous post.  The side cutouts on the gondolas, and the spacing of the floor positioning angles were different, depending on whether five or six containers were hauled.  I have never seen a photo of a mix of tall and short containers in the same car - what do you think??

A.T. Kott


proto48er
 

Guys -

To further elaborate, the NYC USRA cars that were modified to carry air-activated containers were all from the same lot of USRA steel gons.  The differences were that the cars with provision for 6 containers had different side cutouts that the cars with provision for 5 larger containers. 

All the containers had the same outside diameter, so that, theoretically, any could be hauled by any of the container gons.  The gons were equipped with four curved angle positioning locators on the floor for each container.

The cars equipped to haul 5 containers had a steel floor as-modified for container service.  The 1937-era cars with 6 containers had wood floors, at least for a number of years after they were placed in container service.

OT - I last saw air-activated containers in service in 2002 down here in south Texas - Halliburton had a number of 3-container cars (non-removable air-activated containers) that were in oil well cement service.  Those cars were built in the late 1950's or early 1960's.

Question - How long were the NYC air activated container cars in service?  I think one of the taller containers was on the ground at the AC&F plant in New Jersey about 10 years ago - is it still there?

A. T. Kott


Tim O'Connor
 

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is that
an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers from LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the lettering?

Tim O'Connor

At 1/15/2015 07:56 PM Thursday, you wrote:

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones. The containers are listed as being 7� 6� in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller than the NYC version. Both of these are lettered � The LCL Corporation� Todd Horton


Todd Horton
 

Tim, I would think there has to be some difference in the containers due the
capacity difference, 20,000 lbs. vs 22,000 lbs. The light weight for each
are listed as 4,385 lbs. vs 4,430 lbs. That's only 45 pounds so maybe the
difference was internally, a deeper sloped bottom perhaps? One thing I did
missed upon first glance is that there's also a ACF logo on both the NYC and
D&H canisters. The D&H photo says "Builder of car and containers, ACF"

The other question that comes up is about unloading cement from them. The
D&H car has 4 cut outs down at least one side of the car for this purpose,
the NYC photo is too dark to tell but from looking at photos of other cars
(LV I know for sure) had slots spaced evenly along the sides of the car as
well.. The canisters have one fitting for an unloading hose to attach down
towards the bottom of the canister. If you look at the photo of both of
these cars the canisters in each are turned differently as placed in the
gondola. I'm making an assumption here but I would think that the lettering
would have been orientated the same on all of these when they were painted
new. Using the D&H car as an example and going off the photo you would have
had to unload three of these from one side of the car and two from the
other. The NYC car shows a similar arraignment, 3 canisters are orientated
in one direction and the other three are in the opposite direction.

It would be interesting to compare in service shots of these cars to see
how the canisters were positioned after they had been on the road from a
period of time. I have always thought these were interesting cars and they
would make a good modeling candidate. Todd Horton

.

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is
that
an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers from
LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the
lettering?

Tim O'Connor


Todd Horton
 

Here's a link to a photo of another NYC car with 5 containers. Notice how
they are orientated in the car in this photo. Todd Horton

https://www.google.com/search?q=lehigh+valley+cement+gondolas&rlz=1T4ADRA_en
US398US398&tbm=isch&imgil=xRc-9yG_Az7YYM%253A%253BnKwPE6HnO24INM%253Bhttp%25
253A%25252F%25252Fwww.readingmodeler.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fforum%25252Ft
he-caboose%25252F153-cement-container-gondolas&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xRc-9yG_Az
7YYM%253A%252CnKwPE6HnO24INM%252C_&usg=__l-V9mu7DghtJ_fRtuXQBQbCo6uo%3D&biw=
1563&bih=798&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=ify4VLbAKIznsAT-_4D4Cw#imgdii=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A
%3BxRc-9yG_Az7YYM%3B7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A&imgrc=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%253A%3BSora6tB12T
iYLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi114.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fn255%252FChris
333_33%252FDLW1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.atlasrr.com%252Fforum%252Fpop
_printer_friendly.asp%253FARCHIVE%253Dtrue%2526TOPIC_ID%253D55643%3B800%3B51
3

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is
that an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers
from LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the
lettering?

Tim O'Connor



At 1/15/2015 07:56 PM Thursday, you wrote:

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an
NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb
containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones. The containers are listed
as being 7 6 in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller
than the NYC version. Both of these are lettered  The LCL Corporation
Todd Horton


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