One Last X29 Question


Chris Sawicki
 

All- I think the confusion is over the Red Caboose kit #7001. It is labeled 1928, with K brakes, but also has DNE's??.

Kit #7004 is labeled the same but with AB brakes.

From Ben's TKM articles, the 1928 version should have plate ends (my understanding) if it also has K brakes.

http://www.red-caboose.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?&shop=redcaboose&language=eng&curr=0&session=54c14a660783676f&cart_id=91711343x1923&product_display=RC-7001

Chris Sawicki


arved_grass
 

At the risk of getting my hand slapped by Ben...

The "1928 car with Dreadnaught Ends" represents the cars built 1932 and 1934. There was an RC-7000 kit, no longer offered, that was a correct 1928 car. The 1928 cars had the flat ends of the 1924 cars, but there were differences in how the side sheets were put together.

From a chronological stand point, for the basic car, you start with the RC-7002 being the original X29 of 1924. The sides get revised in 1928 (RC-7000), and then revised again in 1932 with the dreadnaught ends (RC-7001). Then we get into patched panel cars... The ARA and REA variants were also covered by RC.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 1/22/15, Chris Sawicki casawicki2@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] One Last X29 Question
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Date: Thursday, January 22, 2015, 2:19 PM


 









All- I think the confusion is
over the Red Caboose kit #7001. It is labeled 1928, with K
brakes, but also has DNE's??.
Kit
#7004 is labeled the same but with AB brakes.
From
Ben's TKM articles, the 1928 version should have plate
ends (my understanding) if it also has K brakes.
http://www.red-caboose.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?&shop=redcaboose&language=eng&curr=0&session=54c14a660783676f&cart_id=91711343x1923&product_display=RC-7001

Chris
Sawicki









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Benjamin Hom
 

Chris Sawicki wrote:
"From Ben's TKM articles, the 1928 version should have plate ends (my understanding) if it also has K brakes."

Yes, for AS-BUILT cars. Keep in mind that cars were eventually retrofitted with AB brakes.

Speaking of AB brakes, this is a "gotcha" with the Red Caboose model. The AB brake arrangement assembled in accordance with the instructions (with transverse reservoir on the same side of the car as the AB valve) is correct ONLY for Dreadnaught end cars built between 1932-1934. It is incorrect for all cars retrofitted with AB brakes. The reservoir should be mounted parallel to the center sill on the opposite side of the car from the AB valve. Additionally, the retainer line no longer runs diagonally across the B end, but parallel with the car ladder straight down the end from the retainer valve.


Ben Hom


Chris Sawicki
 

Hi Arved- I understand your point on Red Caboose #7000 1928 with plate ends

there are (2) 1928 side panel and DNE kits
#7001 with K brakes
#7004 with AB brakes

#7001 appears incorrect with K brakes and DNE's

Chris Sawicki



On Thursday, January 22, 2015 2:21 PM, "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 

Chris Sawicki wrote:
"From Ben's TKM articles, the 1928 version should have plate ends (my understanding) if it also has K brakes."

Yes, for AS-BUILT cars. Keep in mind that cars were eventually retrofitted with AB brakes.

Speaking of AB brakes, this is a "gotcha" with the Red Caboose model. The AB brake arrangement assembled in accordance with the instructions (with transverse reservoir on the same side of the car as the AB valve) is correct ONLY for Dreadnaught end cars built between 1932-1934. It is incorrect for all cars retrofitted with AB brakes. The reservoir should be mounted parallel to the center sill on the opposite side of the car from the AB valve. Additionally, the retainer line no longer runs diagonally across the B end, but parallel with the car ladder straight down the end from the retainer valve.

Ben Hom



arved_grass
 

From Bruce Smith (more info at http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29):

49313-54463 built 1928-1930 5151 cars
54464-57643 built 1928-30 3180 cars
90633-92500 built 1924-25 1868 cars
93995-96126 built 1924-25 2132 cars
97949-99999 built 1924-25 2051 cars
100000-101324 built 1932 1325 cars
101325-103324 built 1934 2000 cars
50200-505948 built 1924-25 3949 cars
566091-574090 built 1924-25 8000 cars

So, I count:
18,000 cars built 1924-25 (61% of total built)
8,331 cars built 1928-1930 (29% of total built)
3,325 cars built 1932 and 1934 (11% of total built)
29,656 total cars.

Yes, percentages do not add up to 100% due to round off errors. From my lower-division "Numerical Methods" class back in the stone age, you can't expect 3 digit accuracy using 2 digit numbers. And since my current thinking is a fleet of about 10 X29s, that's more accuracy than I need to figure out what models I need to build.

On the one hand, if I want to build a representative fleet, I have to built 6 of the 1924-25 cars, and 3 of the 1928-1930 cars before I have to worry about having one of the 1932 or 1934 X29s with Dreadnaught ends. What I really need to do is to break out my 1953 ORER and other research material, and take out the Merchandise and Express cars that would not likely be on the Southern Pacific's Coast Line in 1953.

(Note: I spent some more time than I did computing the above than I did computing lead lost on California roads, but I have not double checked my figures. I will do so after my research material arrives, and before anything is done to models. The bigger concern to me is not what was built, but what survived to 1953, and even more specifically, what cars were likely to run on SP's Coast Line in 1953. At present, I'm interested in signature freight cars likely to be seen on the Southern Pacific Coast Line in 1953, but as they say, PRR freight cars were so common in interchange that every modeler is a PRR modeler, whether he likes it or not.)

I have 5 RC models (in kit form) on their way courtesy Mike Brock and Tony Thompson, so I have my work cut out for me as it is. Tony said he might have a sixth for me. Sometime soon, I need to turn to building 3 of those RC-7000 kits for the 1928-1930 series. Then, and only then, can I worry about an X29 with Dreadnaught ends if I were to keep my roster of X29s in proportion to the number of cars built. I need to get a better idea of what the X29 fleet looked like in 1953, as I said, discounting the cars unlikely to be on the SP Coast line (per discussions with Tony Thompson and others).

I suspect I'm going to be tired of building X29s by the time the models from Mike and Tony are done! At best, a car with dreadnaught ends will be in the second batch I'll build. But I think there are more 1928 X29s to worry about than 1932/34 X29s with their dreadnaught ends.

The RC-7000 kit is interesting. Since Cocoa Beach, when the idea for modeling an X29 first dawned on me (long story), I have yet to see a kit surface on eBay. It's not listed on the Red Caboose site, so I assume there are no more plans to produce the kit. Red Caboose has not offered the car painted in any of it's kits, and to the best of my knowledge, Intermountain hasn't imported the 1928 body in its RTR line. If I hadn't seen multiple messages and other references to the kit, I'd say it's vaporware. At this point, it's definitely the rarest X29, at least in HO.

I still have a lot to learn and to figure out to have this signature car on my roster of freight cars. Learning is part of the fun. Making mistakes is part of the learning process. However, making mistakes is no fun. Doubly so after Ben Hom and Tim O'Conner get through beating me up. :-)So, like the adage to measure twice before cutting once, research thoroughly before modeling.

AAR mandated AB brakes in 1933, so I'm quite sure about the 1934 cars being built with AB brakes. Were the 1932 cars built with K brakes? I doubt it. Handwriting was on the wall by then. I believe I've seen that the 1932 cars were built with AB brakes. In 1953, K brakes were banned from interchange service, so the only cars I plan on modeling with K brakes are my cabooses. I'm galvanized about cars interchanged not having K brakes on my roster, even if a few slipped by the deadline. The subject of K brakes is a bit esoteric for me. Whether a car was built with K brakes or not, by the time I model, all should have AB brakes.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 1/22/15, Chris Sawicki casawicki2@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Hi Arved- I understand your point on Red Caboose #7000 1928 with plate ends
there are (2) 1928 side panel and DNE kits#7001 with K brakes#7004 with AB brakes
#7001 appears incorrect with K brakes and DNE's
Chris Sawicki


On Thursday, January 22, 2015 2:21 PM, "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:



Chris Sawicki wrote:
"From Ben's TKM articles, the 1928 version should have plate ends (my understanding) if it also has K brakes."

Yes, for AS-BUILT cars. Keep in mind that cars were eventually retrofitted with AB brakes.

Speaking of AB brakes, this is a "gotcha" with the Red Caboose model. The AB brake arrangement assembled in accordance with the instructions (with transverse reservoir on the same side of the car as the AB valve) is correct ONLY for Dreadnaught end cars built between 1932-1934. It is incorrect for all cars retrofitted with AB brakes. The reservoir should be mounted parallel to the center sill on the opposite side of the car from the AB valve. Additionally, the retainer line no longer runs diagonally across the B end, but parallel with the car ladder straight down the end from the retainer valve.

Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

Arved Grass wrote:
"AAR mandated AB brakes in 1933, so I'm quite sure about the 1934 cars being built with AB brakes. Were the 1932 cars built with K brakes? I doubt it. Handwriting was on the wall by then. I believe I've seen that the 1932 cars were built with AB brakes."

You're overthinking this. ALL of the Dreadnaught end cars were built with AB brakes. PRR built at least one X29 with AB brakes in 1930. The builder's photo of the car shows it with an "EXPERIMENTAL AB BRAKE" stencil.




Ben Hom


A&Y Dave in MD
 

My focus is on the Southern Railway (and shortline Atlantic & Yadkin) in the Piedmont region of North Carolina in 1934. "Captn" Snow the conductor did me a service in identifying X29's by number that appeared in this area/era through his log books. My question would be: we're any, most, or all of the early '24-25 cars or the later '28 cars converted to AB brakes by 1934?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPad

On Jan 22, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Arved Grass wrote:
"AAR mandated AB brakes in 1933, so I'm quite sure about the 1934 cars being built with AB brakes. Were the 1932 cars built with K brakes? I doubt it. Handwriting was on the wall by then. I believe I've seen that the 1932 cars were built with AB brakes."

You're overthinking this. ALL of the Dreadnaught end cars were built with AB brakes. PRR built at least one X29 with AB brakes in 1930. The builder's photo of the car shows it with an "EXPERIMENTAL AB BRAKE" stencil.

Ben Hom


David
 

No, K brakes were legal in interchange until 1953, and many K brake cars weren't converted until after World War 2.

David Thompson


Benjamin Hom
 

David Bott asked:
"My focus is on the Southern Railway (and shortline Atlantic & Yadkin) in the Piedmont region of North Carolina in 1934. "Captn" Snow the conductor did me a service in identifying X29's by number that appeared in this area/era through his log books. My question would be: we're any, most, or all of the early '24-25 cars or the later '28 cars converted to AB brakes by 1934?"
No. Do the math. 26,000+ cars across both 1924-25 and 1928-30 were built. Even if the Pennsy decided to do wholesale retrofitting of the X29 fleet starting in 1932, it's highly unlikely that they would have completed even a small fraction of the fleet inn two years, especially given the far-flung travels of general service boxcars. It's far more likely the cars received AB brakes during major shopping - since virtually every car required side sill repairs, AB brake retrofits probably happened at the same time.




Ben Hom


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Sorry I was not clearer. I got the idea that there probably was not complete conversion, given the numbers, and given they used AB as early as 1930, they probably converted some. I knew that the construction created rusted side panels and eventually plates to fix.  So how many in 1934?  That could still mean only tens, or hundreds, or thousands.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPad

On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

David Bott asked:
"My focus is on the Southern Railway (and shortline Atlantic & Yadkin) in the Piedmont region of North Carolina in 1934. "Captn" Snow the conductor did me a service in identifying X29's by number that appeared in this area/era through his log books. My question would be: we're any, most, or all of the early '24-25 cars or the later '28 cars converted to AB brakes by 1934?"
No. Do the math. 26,000+ cars across both 1924-25 and 1928-30 were built. Even if the Pennsy decided to do wholesale retrofitting of the X29 fleet starting in 1932, it's highly unlikely that they would have completed even a small fraction of the fleet inn two years, especially given the far-flung travels of general service boxcars. It's far more likely the cars received AB brakes during major shopping - since virtually every car required side sill repairs, AB brake retrofits probably happened at the same time.

Ben Hom


Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

There may well be a census of X29s with AB brakes at some time in their history other than construction but it was almost certainly NOT done on a yearly basis.  Why would it have been done in 1934?  There was no pressure at the time to convert existing cars to AB brakes.  If you want a guess, I can give you that.  Go with the construction numbers (ie about 10%).  If you really want to model an earlier X29 with AB brakes, then only do so if you have photographic evidence of conversion prior to 1934.  I know we live in an age of information, but sometimes you have to be reasonable in your expectations and this is one of those cases.  

How many X29s are you going to model? If you have 10, then one should be a dreadnaught ended early AB equipped car.  That leaves 9 cars.  I doubt that even 10% of the rest of the fleet had been converted to AB, so that means model 9 K brake cars.  Heck, even by 1944 I only plan to model about 1/2 of my fleet of 29 X29s with AB brakes of any kind.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 8:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] One Last X29 Question

Sorry I was not clearer. I got the idea that there probably was not complete conversion, given the numbers, and given they used AB as early as 1930, they probably converted some. I knew that the construction created rusted side panels and eventually plates to fix.  So how many in 1934?  That could still mean only tens, or hundreds, or thousands.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPad

On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

David Bott asked:
"My focus is on the Southern Railway (and shortline Atlantic & Yadkin) in the Piedmont region of North Carolina in 1934. "Captn" Snow the conductor did me a service in identifying X29's by number that appeared in this area/era through his log books. My question would be: we're any, most, or all of the early '24-25 cars or the later '28 cars converted to AB brakes by 1934?"
No. Do the math. 26,000+ cars across both 1924-25 and 1928-30 were built. Even if the Pennsy decided to do wholesale retrofitting of the X29 fleet starting in 1932, it's highly unlikely that they would have completed even a small fraction of the fleet inn two years, especially given the far-flung travels of general service boxcars. It's far more likely the cars received AB brakes during major shopping - since virtually every car required side sill repairs, AB brake retrofits probably happened at the same time.

Ben Hom




Eric Lombard
 

Hi Everyone,

In crunching information about the X29 over the years I found the following regarding AB brakes which might be of interest:

1-1939  On this date there were about 25649 X29 built with K brakes in freight service.

6-1939  By this date only 124 out of all X29 built with K brakes had been converted to AB brakes.

1/1/1945  The original deadline for AB brakes required in interchange. The requirement was ultimately extended to 6/30/1953. Very likely using critical war material to replace brake components in ordinary freight cars during the war was not a national priority!

After the war progress in replacement appears to have been very rapid.

11-1952  By this date all but 459 X29 built with K brakes, and in freight service, had been converted to AB brakes.

1-1953 there were 23548 X29 in freight service.

This last date is a few months shy of the 6/30/1953 (final) deadline on which AB brakes would become mandatory for interchange.

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


A&Y Dave in MD
 

All K brakes for my home layout fleet then, and ABs for my modular club fleet (circa 1955)!

Thanks to all who replied, including the offers to share photos and data offlist.

Sent from Dave Bott's iPad

On Jan 25, 2015, at 12:29 PM, elombard@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

In crunching information about the X29 over the years I found the following regarding AB brakes which might be of interest:

1-1939  On this date there were about 25649 X29 built with K brakes in freight service.

6-1939  By this date only 124 out of all X29 built with K brakes had been converted to AB brakes.

1/1/1945  The original deadline for AB brakes required in interchange. The requirement was ultimately extended to 6/30/1953. Very likely using critical war material to replace brake components in ordinary freight cars during the war was not a national priority!

After the war progress in replacement appears to have been very rapid.

11-1952  By this date all but 459 X29 built with K brakes, and in freight service, had been converted to AB brakes.

1-1953 there were 23548 X29 in freight service.


This last date is a few months shy of the 6/30/1953 (final) deadline on which AB brakes would become mandatory for interchange.

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


Guy Wilber
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

"There may well be a census of X29s with AB brakes at some time in their history other than construction but it was almost certainly NOT done on a yearly basis. Why would it have been done in 1934? There was no pressure at the time to convert existing cars to AB brakes."

There certainly was a census of X29s converted to "AB" brakes along with ALL cars so converted. Upon the adoption of The "AB" brake system as "standard" by the American Railway Association on August 16, 1933, Rule 3, Section (a), paragraph 4 was modified to require all new cars built on or after September 1, 1933, to be equipped with air brakes meeting the air brake specifications as revised in 1933.

On November 20, 1934, along with the adoption of the original date for full conversion of all freight cars used in interchange (January 1, 1945), the Association of American Railroads membership approved the Mechanical Advisory Committee's recommendation to the Federal Coordinator of Transportation (Joseph Eastman) that: "A quarterly report to be made to the coordinator and the Interstate Commerce Commission showing the number of freight cars acquired and the number of freight cars on which brake equipment is converted each month."

The first quarterly reports were filed on April 1, 1935 which showed a total of 26,182 (1.26 %) railroad owned and 1,389 (0.52%) private line cars equipped with "AB" brakes.

In 1939 the ICC relieved the railroads and private car owners of some paperwork making the reports due semi-annually due on June 30th and December 31st (yearly).

Thus, all railroads and private owners submitted these reports thru June of 1953.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada