Greetings, a new guy.


mwbauers
 

I'm a so-so modeler that is falling into lower cost modeling due to the economy.

I have a question about all-wood boxcars.

I remember seeing a couple of the older outside braced wooden boxcars on the side of the Milwaukee Road main shops for several years starting around 1970. So some wood cars survived years beyond the years this group is following.

My question is about when did the older all-wood boxcars get pulled off of the mainline?

I'd like to photo-real model several of the older all-wood boxcars in higher-tech card-stock, of sorts. I understand many of the surviving in service wood box cars would have metal ends and up to date metal under-frames.

I'm puzzled about when all wood body boxcars would be forced off of the Roads.

I'm unsure if circa 1952, wooden sided boxcars would still be somewhat common.

Does anyone have knowledge of mandated elimination dates for the all-wood box car bodies, or the wooden sided-only boxcars ?

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi


Steve SANDIFER
 

In 1952 there would be a lot of single sheathed and double sheathed cars around. Most modelers of that time slot have too many all steel cars.  

 

Now your replied will start getting technical with details of steel underframes, steel ends vs. wood ends, truss rods, etc.  I'm going to lunch.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 12:00 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

 

I'm a so-so modeler that is falling into lower cost modeling due to the economy.

I have a question about all-wood boxcars.

I remember seeing a couple of the older outside braced wooden boxcars on the side of the Milwaukee Road main shops for several years starting around 1970. So some wood cars survived years beyond the years this group is following.

My question is about when did the older all-wood boxcars get pulled off of the mainline?

I'd like to photo-real model several of the older all-wood boxcars in higher-tech card-stock, of sorts. I understand many of the surviving in service wood box cars would have metal ends and up to date metal under-frames.

I'm puzzled about when all wood body boxcars would be forced off of the Roads.

I'm unsure if circa 1952, wooden sided boxcars would still be somewhat common.

Does anyone have knowledge of mandated elimination dates for the all-wood box car bodies, or the wooden sided-only boxcars ?

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi


Bruce Smith
 

Mike,

Single sheathed boxcars (aka “outside braced”) are certainly not “all wood”.  All wood boxcars were eliminated from interchange service prior to WW2.  This was due to the inability of the wood underframes to withstand the forces applied to them by heavier trains.

The next iteration would have been wooden superstructures with steel underframes.  These also lost favor in the years prior to WW2 and were mostly eliminated from interchange service prior to the start of WW2.  Refrigerator cars often had completely wooden superstructures as well.

The next iteration would be cars with steel superstructure and steel underframes with wood sheathing, such as the single sheathed car that you mention.  These began to be built prior to WW1 and lasted in service past the time frame of this list.  As for the MILW, they were likely not in interchange service at that time, but rather were in company service or MOW service.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I'm a so-so modeler that is falling into lower cost modeling due to the economy.

I have a question about all-wood boxcars.

I remember seeing a couple of the older outside braced wooden boxcars on the side of the Milwaukee Road main shops for several years starting around 1970. So some wood cars survived years beyond the years this group is following.

My question is about when did the older all-wood boxcars get pulled off of the mainline?

I'd like to photo-real model several of the older all-wood boxcars in higher-tech card-stock, of sorts. I understand many of the surviving in service wood box cars would have metal ends and up to date metal under-frames.

I'm puzzled about when all wood body boxcars would be forced off of the Roads.

I'm unsure if circa 1952, wooden sided boxcars would still be somewhat common.

Does anyone have knowledge of mandated elimination dates for the all-wood box car bodies, or the wooden sided-only  boxcars ?

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi


mwbauers
 

By all-wood, I mean the double sheathed wooden upper bodies with steel under-frames.

Those came with double-sheath wooden ends, steel framed single sheath ends, or all steel ends.......... all on then contemporary steel under-framing.

Each version with a wooden roof, or a steel roof.........

My pondering is if the strong steel framed, yet wooden sided cars would have lasted long enough to be almost commonly seen in use after WW-II.


Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:17 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith'  wrote:

Mike,


Single sheathed boxcars (aka “outside braced”) are certainly not “all wood”.  All wood boxcars were eliminated from interchange service prior to WW2.  This was due to the inability of the wood underframes to withstand the forces applied to them by heavier trains.

The next iteration would have been wooden superstructures with steel underframes.  These also lost favor in the years prior to WW2 and were mostly eliminated from interchange service prior to the start of WW2.  Refrigerator cars often had completely wooden superstructures as well.

The next iteration would be cars with steel superstructure and steel underframes with wood sheathing, such as the single sheathed car that you mention.  These began to be built prior to WW1 and lasted in service past the time frame of this list.  As for the MILW, they were likely not in interchange service at that time, but rather were in company service or MOW service.
.............


Charles Morrill
 

Stock cars with steel frames, wood sides, ends, and roofs lasted into the end of stock trains (late ‘60s at least).  Wood body box cars with steel center sills (NP, GN) lasted till the end of this forum time period.  Steel framed box cars with wood sides and ends (SP, RI, MILW, etc.) also were still in use post WW2.
Charlie
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.
 


By all-wood, I mean the double sheathed wooden upper bodies with steel under-frames.
 
Those came with double-sheath wooden ends, steel framed single sheath ends, or all steel ends.......... all on then contemporary steel under-framing.
 
Each version with a wooden roof, or a steel roof.........
 
My pondering is if the strong steel framed, yet wooden sided cars would have lasted long enough to be almost commonly seen in use after WW-II.
 
 
Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi
 
On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:17 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith'  wrote:
 

Mike,

 
Single sheathed boxcars (aka “outside braced”) are certainly not “all wood”.  All wood boxcars were eliminated from interchange service prior to WW2.  This was due to the inability of the wood underframes to withstand the forces applied to them by heavier trains.
 
The next iteration would have been wooden superstructures with steel underframes.  These also lost favor in the years prior to WW2 and were mostly eliminated from interchange service prior to the start of WW2.  Refrigerator cars often had completely wooden superstructures as well.
 
The next iteration would be cars with steel superstructure and steel underframes with wood sheathing, such as the single sheathed car that you mention.  These began to be built prior to WW1 and lasted in service past the time frame of this list.  As for the MILW, they were likely not in interchange service at that time, but rather were in company service or MOW service.
.............


Bruce Smith
 

Mike,

So, after all the bandwidth this weekend… terminology IS really important <VBG>  

As has been noted, cars with wood sheathing but steel structures lasted beyond WWII in large numbers and so your answer is yes.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:35 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



By all-wood, I mean the double sheathed wooden upper bodies with steel under-frames.

Those came with double-sheath wooden ends, steel framed single sheath ends, or all steel ends.......... all on then contemporary steel under-framing.

Each version with a wooden roof, or a steel roof.........

My pondering is if the strong steel framed, yet wooden sided cars would have lasted long enough to be almost commonly seen in use after WW-II.


Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:17 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith'  wrote:

Mike,


Single sheathed boxcars (aka “outside braced”) are certainly not “all wood”.  All wood boxcars were eliminated from interchange service prior to WW2.  This was due to the inability of the wood underframes to withstand the forces applied to them by heavier trains.

The next iteration would have been wooden superstructures with steel underframes.  These also lost favor in the years prior to WW2 and were mostly eliminated from interchange service prior to the start of WW2.  Refrigerator cars often had completely wooden superstructures as well.

The next iteration would be cars with steel superstructure and steel underframes with wood sheathing, such as the single sheathed car that you mention.  These began to be built prior to WW1 and lasted in service past the time frame of this list.  As for the MILW, they were likely not in interchange service at that time, but rather were in company service or MOW service.
.............




Mikebrock
 


Mike, as Steve, Charles and Bruce point out, ain't nothin' simple when it comes to frt cars.
 
Some RR's went to all steel sooner than others. And it wasn't because of a gvt mandate. Southern, for example, used their truss rod double sheathed SU series of box cars into the 50's. Wersterfield makes it. NP still had 4104 DS box cars in the 10000 series in 1956. Sunshine made it. They also made the St Louis Southwestern DS. [ 2000 cars in '53 ]. Fowler SS box cars were obtained by D&RGW, Rock Island and C&NW [ to name 3 RRs ]. Westerfield makes it. All ran into the late 50's and 60's. There were 45 Santa Fe BX-W truss rod box cars in service in '52. Westerfield makes it. So, as you can see, you have a lot of research to do.
 
Mike Brock


mwbauers
 

Thank you Bruce, and the rest of you guys...........

This is part of the continuing build-up to going photo-real modeling with enhanced blow-ups of the Red Ball card side catalog pages. Catalog #9, date unknown. is ideal for this sort of thing. There are even a couple of 50' double door late era wooden sided cars there. [CNW and ATSF]

I have a few full HO car sides as well.

While its vintage modeling stock, I did get about 80 sets of decorated and embossed Tenshodo tin sides for HO steel cars a year or so ago. I hesitate to actually build with them. I do wish to try going photo-real with them and leaving the originals intact. I have some ways of doing the embossed rivet detail in the photo-real versions as well.

The goal is to scratch-build as many boxcars as possible using only a few critical purchased details like braking equipment. I'm by-passing the current model railroading unit costs of many model boxcars being around $40, as best as possible .

I do understand that additional tooling costs are involved here. But I like the idea of spending less on tooling than I would for the same number of boxcars and other car types.

I have a wallpaper screen of a four truck, drop bottom, heavy duty PHMX flatcar on this computer screen. As often as I see those monster cars on the property, I look at them with the eye of seeing how I could assemble model versions of those if I only had all of the segments and gussets of the cars cut out and ready to plastic-weld together. They are just a lot of combined steel plate with an interesting routing of the brake system.

More in line with this era modeling was the smaller drop bottom flat that used to be on the property that was littered with the angle-iron stubs and remaining plates of many years of tying down mining shovel sub-assemblies. I'm glad I got a slew of detail shots of that. It was either a cast car or a riveted constructed car, either would be an interesting model. Thankfully, I have the shots.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:48 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Mike,


So, after all the bandwidth this weekend… terminology IS really important  

As has been noted, cars with wood sheathing but steel structures lasted beyond WWII in large numbers and so your answer is yes.


Aley, Jeff A
 

Mike,

 

               In the STMFC “Files” section, if you search for “boxcar”, you’ll find a spreadsheet of all single-sheathed box cars 1945-59.

 

               I think there’s another spreadsheet showing all box cars (from Larry Osterreich (sp?)) that designates which are wood- and which are steel-sheathed.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:17 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

 

Thank you Bruce, and the rest of you guys...........

 

This is part of the continuing build-up to going photo-real modeling with enhanced blow-ups of the Red Ball card side catalog pages. Catalog #9, date unknown. is ideal for this sort of thing. There are even a couple of 50' double door late era wooden sided cars there. [CNW and ATSF]

 

I have a few full HO car sides as well.

 

While its vintage modeling stock, I did get about 80 sets of decorated and embossed Tenshodo tin sides for HO steel cars a year or so ago. I hesitate to actually build with them. I do wish to try going photo-real with them and leaving the originals intact. I have some ways of doing the embossed rivet detail in the photo-real versions as well.

 

The goal is to scratch-build as many boxcars as possible using only a few critical purchased details like braking equipment. I'm by-passing the current model railroading unit costs of many model boxcars being around $40, as best as possible .

 

I do understand that additional tooling costs are involved here. But I like the idea of spending less on tooling than I would for the same number of boxcars and other car types.

 

I have a wallpaper screen of a four truck, drop bottom, heavy duty PHMX flatcar on this computer screen. As often as I see those monster cars on the property, I look at them with the eye of seeing how I could assemble model versions of those if I only had all of the segments and gussets of the cars cut out and ready to plastic-weld together. They are just a lot of combined steel plate with an interesting routing of the brake system.

 

More in line with this era modeling was the smaller drop bottom flat that used to be on the property that was littered with the angle-iron stubs and remaining plates of many years of tying down mining shovel sub-assemblies. I'm glad I got a slew of detail shots of that. It was either a cast car or a riveted constructed car, either would be an interesting model. Thankfully, I have the shots.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:48 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Mike,

 

So, after all the bandwidth this weekend… terminology IS really important <VBG>  

 

As has been noted, cars with wood sheathing but steel structures lasted beyond WWII in large numbers and so your answer is yes.


Aley, Jeff A
 

Found it: it’s titled: DS-SS-Steel Split 1938 to 1950.xls

 

DS = Double-Sheathed (with wood)

SS = Singel-Sheathed (with wood)

Steel = steel sheathed.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 4:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

 

Mike,

 

               In the STMFC “Files” section, if you search for “boxcar”, you’ll find a spreadsheet of all single-sheathed box cars 1945-59.

 

               I think there’s another spreadsheet showing all box cars (from Larry Osterreich (sp?)) that designates which are wood- and which are steel-sheathed.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 11:17 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

 

Thank you Bruce, and the rest of you guys...........

 

This is part of the continuing build-up to going photo-real modeling with enhanced blow-ups of the Red Ball card side catalog pages. Catalog #9, date unknown. is ideal for this sort of thing. There are even a couple of 50' double door late era wooden sided cars there. [CNW and ATSF]

 

I have a few full HO car sides as well.

 

While its vintage modeling stock, I did get about 80 sets of decorated and embossed Tenshodo tin sides for HO steel cars a year or so ago. I hesitate to actually build with them. I do wish to try going photo-real with them and leaving the originals intact. I have some ways of doing the embossed rivet detail in the photo-real versions as well.

 

The goal is to scratch-build as many boxcars as possible using only a few critical purchased details like braking equipment. I'm by-passing the current model railroading unit costs of many model boxcars being around $40, as best as possible .

 

I do understand that additional tooling costs are involved here. But I like the idea of spending less on tooling than I would for the same number of boxcars and other car types.

 

I have a wallpaper screen of a four truck, drop bottom, heavy duty PHMX flatcar on this computer screen. As often as I see those monster cars on the property, I look at them with the eye of seeing how I could assemble model versions of those if I only had all of the segments and gussets of the cars cut out and ready to plastic-weld together. They are just a lot of combined steel plate with an interesting routing of the brake system.

 

More in line with this era modeling was the smaller drop bottom flat that used to be on the property that was littered with the angle-iron stubs and remaining plates of many years of tying down mining shovel sub-assemblies. I'm glad I got a slew of detail shots of that. It was either a cast car or a riveted constructed car, either would be an interesting model. Thankfully, I have the shots.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:48 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Mike,

 

So, after all the bandwidth this weekend… terminology IS really important <VBG>  

 

As has been noted, cars with wood sheathing but steel structures lasted beyond WWII in large numbers and so your answer is yes.


Steve SANDIFER
 

There are a lot of options on the market other than the $40 RTR cars. Our club just concluded a train show where you could purchase all the RTR weathered cars with Kadees and Intermountain wheel sets that you could ever want for $7 or less.  We had three estates trying to outdo one another in giving stuff away. Good engines like Stewart and Atlas were going for $30-$40, some brand new. One dealer had 30 or so Tycos in original boxes (yea with horn couplers and plastic wheels) for $3 each.

 

I tend to like detail, but many operators are very happy with blue box Athearn and Roundhouse. So you don't have to spend a fortune to enoy this hoppy.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 1:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

 

Thank you Bruce, and the rest of you guys...........

 

This is part of the continuing build-up to going photo-real modeling with enhanced blow-ups of the Red Ball card side catalog pages. Catalog #9, date unknown. is ideal for this sort of thing. There are even a couple of 50' double door late era wooden sided cars there. [CNW and ATSF]

 

I have a few full HO car sides as well.

 

While its vintage modeling stock, I did get about 80 sets of decorated and embossed Tenshodo tin sides for HO steel cars a year or so ago. I hesitate to actually build with them. I do wish to try going photo-real with them and leaving the originals intact. I have some ways of doing the embossed rivet detail in the photo-real versions as well.

 

The goal is to scratch-build as many boxcars as possible using only a few critical purchased details like braking equipment. I'm by-passing the current model railroading unit costs of many model boxcars being around $40, as best as possible .

 

I do understand that additional tooling costs are involved here. But I like the idea of spending less on tooling than I would for the same number of boxcars and other car types.

 

I have a wallpaper screen of a four truck, drop bottom, heavy duty PHMX flatcar on this computer screen. As often as I see those monster cars on the property, I look at them with the eye of seeing how I could assemble model versions of those if I only had all of the segments and gussets of the cars cut out and ready to plastic-weld together. They are just a lot of combined steel plate with an interesting routing of the brake system.

 

More in line with this era modeling was the smaller drop bottom flat that used to be on the property that was littered with the angle-iron stubs and remaining plates of many years of tying down mining shovel sub-assemblies. I'm glad I got a slew of detail shots of that. It was either a cast car or a riveted constructed car, either would be an interesting model. Thankfully, I have the shots.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:48 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Mike,

 

So, after all the bandwidth this weekend… terminology IS really important  

 

As has been noted, cars with wood sheathing but steel structures lasted beyond WWII in large numbers and so your answer is yes.


Mark Drake <markstation01@...>
 

I'd say that is the exception rather than the norm...

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android


From:"'Steve Sandifer' steve.sandifer@... [STMFC]"
Date:Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:52 PM
Subject:RE: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

There are a lot of options on the market other than the $40 RTR cars. Our club just concluded a train show where you could purchase all the RTR weathered cars with Kadees and Intermountain wheel sets that you could ever want for $7 or less.  We had three estates trying to outdo one another in giving stuff away. Good engines like Stewart and Atlas were going for $30-$40, some brand new. One dealer had 30 or so Tycos in original boxes (yea with horn couplers and plastic wheels) for $3 each.

 

I tend to like detail, but many operators are very happy with blue box Athearn and Roundhouse. So you don't have to spend a fortune to enoy this hoppy.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 1:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 

 

Thank you Bruce, and the rest of you guys...........

 

This is part of the continuing build-up to going photo-real modeling with enhanced blow-ups of the Red Ball card side catalog pages. Catalog #9, date unknown. is ideal for this sort of thing. There are even a couple of 50' double door late era wooden sided cars there. [CNW and ATSF]

 

I have a few full HO car sides as well.

 

While its vintage modeling stock, I did get about 80 sets of decorated and embossed Tenshodo tin sides for HO steel cars a year or so ago. I hesitate to actually build with them. I do wish to try going photo-real with them and leaving the originals intact. I have some ways of doing the embossed rivet detail in the photo-real versions as well.

 

The goal is to scratch-build as many boxcars as possible using only a few critical purchased details like braking equipment. I'm by-passing the current model railroading unit costs of many model boxcars being around $40, as best as possible .

 

I do understand that additional tooling costs are involved here. But I like the idea of spending less on tooling than I would for the same number of boxcars and other car types.

 

I have a wallpaper screen of a four truck, drop bottom, heavy duty PHMX flatcar on this computer screen. As often as I see those monster cars on the property, I look at them with the eye of seeing how I could assemble model versions of those if I only had all of the segments and gussets of the cars cut out and ready to plastic-weld together. They are just a lot of combined steel plate with an interesting routing of the brake system.

 

More in line with this era modeling was the smaller drop bottom flat that used to be on the property that was littered with the angle-iron stubs and remaining plates of many years of tying down mining shovel sub-assemblies. I'm glad I got a slew of detail shots of that. It was either a cast car or a riveted constructed car, either would be an interesting model. Thankfully, I have the shots.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:48 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Mike,

 

So, after all the bandwidth this weekend… terminology IS really important  

 

As has been noted, cars with wood sheathing but steel structures lasted beyond WWII in large numbers and so your answer is yes.


Bill Welch
 

What is "photo-real modeling?"

Bill Welch


Richard Townsend
 

I was wondering the same thing. If it is different from virtual modeling, the OP might want to look at the virtual modeling resources as I understand they have quite a collection of electronic versions of freight cars that might be possible to print out.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Mar 2, 2015 7:14 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Greetings, a new guy.

 
What is "photo-real modeling?"

Bill Welch


mwbauers
 

You guys are guessing correctly.

In the fine art world it's a painting that looks real enough to be a photo.

In the modeling world it's like the HO WW-II Varney heavyweight passengers cars that while look to be fully 3d painted castings, actually are shaded paint layers and shadowing on a clear backing sheet such that it looks to have real depth of layers panels and rivets. But are actually just clever painting with printed shadowing.


Mike Bauers


On Mar 2, 2015, at 9:14 PM, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

What is "photo-real modeling?"


Bill Welch