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Bananas to the Indianapolis?
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Do I recall correctly that the Illinois Central ran banana traffic to Indianapolis (an entire train?) ? Also, if routed to the Midwest from the South, what kind of icing treatment and what refrigerator cars in the early 1950s? I wouldn't think that bananas would not need to be chilled as much as other perishable traffic. Would most of the banana traffic to the huge Detroit Produce terminal come form East Coast ports from the IC via Chicago? Victor A. Baird www.erstwhilepublications.com
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Victor Baird wrote
> ... if routed to the Midwest from the South, what kind of icing treatment Ice or heaters (depending on season) may be needed but unless the bananas were going to sit for a while at a wholesale terminal I would think no service would be needed so close to the destination of the bananas. > Would most of the banana traffic to the huge Detroit Produce terminal come > form East Coast ports from the IC via Chicago? I think that is a reasonable assumption. The rail haul from Baltimore, Philadelphia or New York to Detroit is shorter by hundreds of miles than from Mobile or Nawlins. My guess is that IC traffic reached Chicago and all points north and west as far as the Missouri River (KC and Omaha). Denver and El Paso and Fargo may be more economically reached from west coast ports. Tim O'Connor
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Bill Welch
Banana traffic from such ports as Tampa, Charleston, SC, and Baltimore was loaded by Fruit Growers Express.
Bill Welch
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Victor, I do not believe that the ICRR got any closer to Indianapolis then Louisville KY. Chuck Peck
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 2:04 AM, reporterllc@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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william darnaby
The IC ran directly into the south side of Indianapolis on a secondary line that came off the main at Effingham. This line is now operated by the Indiana Railroad.
Bill Darnaby From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 6:54 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bananas to the Indianapolis? Victor, I do not believe that the ICRR got any closer to Indianapolis then Louisville KY. Chuck Peck On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 2:04 AM, reporterllc@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote: Do I recall correctly that the Illinois Central ran banana traffic to Indianapolis (an entire train?) ? Victor A. Baird www.erstwhilepublications.com
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Dave Nelson
Per ICC reports the Banana traffic out of New Orleans (primary US port for banana imports) was almost exclusively to Chicago. I would imagine almost all distribution to nearby states would originate there.
Dave Nelson From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:05 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Bananas to the Indianapolis? Do I recall correctly that the Illinois Central ran banana traffic to Indianapolis (an entire train?) ? Also, if routed to the Midwest from the South, what kind of icing treatment and what refrigerator cars in the early 1950s? I wouldn't think that bananas would not need to be chilled as much as other perishable traffic. Would most of the banana traffic to the huge Detroit Produce terminal come form East Coast ports from the IC via Chicago? Victor A. Baird www.erstwhilepublications.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Aley, Jeff A
Hi Dave,
Would the banana traffic have been diverted to other destinations while en-route to Chicago? Or would the bananas be transloaded in Chicago and sent to other destinations?
I guess my REAL question is whether the bananas at the grocery warehouse in Topeka, KS would have most likely arrived in IC reefers.
Regards,
-Jeff
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:52 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Bananas to the Indianapolis?
Per ICC reports the Banana traffic out of New Orleans (primary US port for banana imports) was almost exclusively to Chicago. I would imagine almost all distribution to nearby states would originate there.
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earlyrail
Would the banana traffic have been diverted to other destinations while en-route to Chicago? Or would the bananas be transloaded in Chicago and sent to other destinations?The IC Historical group did an "Green Diamond" magazine issue on banana traffic. Bananas going north to Minnesota were interchanged at East Dubuque among other locations. Howard Garner
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james murrie
If I recall correctly the main IC station for servicing the banana refers as they traveled north from New Orleans was Fulton KY.
Jim Murrie
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Bill Welch
In my research I seem to remember coming across an annual Banana Festival in Fulton which at the time seemed an odd place for such an event but Jim's comment explains the context.
Bill Welch
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George Eichelberger
Bananas from Charleston, SC were from ships docked at the Southern Railway owned pier. The Southern rounded up the empties, loaded and dispatched the cars, that may or may not have been Fruit Growers cars. United Fruit issued lists of refrigerator cars that could be used for banana loading. Cars were billed by the Fruit Dispatch Co. A portion of the outbound loads were interchanged to the ACL and SAL at Charleston.
Cars on the March 16, 1950 list of acceptable cars included ART (4,035 cars), FGE (4,949), WFE (1,696), BRE (762), IC (498), MDT (4,076), NRC (2,160), PFE (32,345), SFRD (10,176), DL&W (295), NP (1,285) and URT (479) for a total of 62,756 cars. Note, this is not a total of those companies reefers, only those acceptable to Fruit Dispatch. The URT cars, for example have a note “Cars in this series (37000-37999) acceptable if inside wall ribs are not exposed”. Some cars could be used for summer loading only. An example waybill for FGE 35936, loaded by United Fruit Sales Corp. off SS Tucurinca #9 (ninth arrival at Charleston) at Sou. Rwy. pier 2, Charleston, SC 9-18-62 to Chicago. Consignee was Inland Trading Co. routed Sou to Cincinnati, Big Four to Kankakee, then IC to Chicago. Gross wt was 91440, tare 56200 and net 35240. Freight charge for 35240 lbs was $444.60, minus $27.41 (W&H ABS?) for a transportation cost of $417.19. Warfage cost was $27.31, ice $13.08 and switching $.77 for a total of $41.16. Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read: Front vents closed plugs in detached Rear vents on irons plugs out iced 2 ton at Charleston SC Keep fans on (maybe inbill can help decipher?) We cannot tell from the waybill if this car actually went to Chicago. The Southern Railway Historical Association’s files have quite a few diversion telegrams that describe diversions at various terminals. Further research might let us match a diversion to a particular waybill. In reading through the file I did not realize how many local grocery stores and distributers received car loads of bananas. A large number of cars from Charleston appear to have been billed to Cincinnati for local distribution or further transfer. I am working on a banana article for SRHA’s TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year’s St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs. The archives includes folders of 60-75 ship arrivals with EVERY outbound train consist. Banana specials were usually about 45 cars, appropriate for a Southern 2-8-2. (I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!) Ike
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Tony Thompson
george eichelberger wrote:
Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read:Hatch plugs were separate parts of the hatch closure before the advent of steel hatch covers. Plugs were attached with chains on earlier cars (later hinged, though separately from covers), and the chains permitting dropping the plugs inside the car, or outside onto the roof alongside the hatch. I do not know what "detached" means, unless FGE or some other cars had a shackle or something in that chain, permitting detachment. The rest of that instruction sounds simply like plugs in normal place, hatch cover closed. "Vents on" of course refers to hatch covers latched open ("on irons). Running fans with ice in the bunkers ensured plenty of cool air circulation, and an open vent may have been an effort to keep the cargo from getting too cold. Bananas often were NOT iced, as cold can cause browning of the fruit's skin. PFE often assigned old cars with deteriorated insulation to banana service, as the cargo wasn't usually refrigerated anyway. George, your article sounds very interesting. When it comes out, maybe you can let the list know how to buy copies from SRHA. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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George Eichelberger writes about the Southern RR with his usual high level of competence and then notes:
(I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!) Not hardly. In fact, I want more. George mentions that car FGE 35936 travels from Charleston to Cincinnati via Southern tracks. A quick look at the route shows that 35936 went either through Knoxville or Chattanooga on its way to Oakdale where it entered the Rathole to Cincinnati. If it went through Knoxville it would have probably taken the shortest route to Oak Dale through Clinton which meant that it would then have gone down the valley just north of Oak Ridge and I would likely have heard its train's whistle from up on the fenced in ridge...if we interrupted our "pickup" football game long enough to hear it. A few yrs ago. Mike Brock
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devansprr
In 1943, PRR freight schedules and arranged freight log sheets indicate banana specials out of Bayview yard in Baltimore on Mondays and Thursdays. The special was westbound out the PRR main, and in addition to servicing the PA markets, includes a number of destinations in Ohio, including Columbus and Cleveland (Northern Ohio Food Terminal). The PRR had several routes out of Columbus, to include to Indianapolis, but there is no specific mention of bananas headed that direction out of Columbus on the schedules, although there were perishable moves to Indianapolis.
The documents also suggest car loads of bananas were delivered to the Erie and Nickel Plate in Cleveland. No information is provided on where those roads took the bananas. I suspect, but have no authoritative document, that because the trains were probably seasonal, and ran only two days per week, they were not part of the "regularly" scheduled (also referred to as "arranged") freight trains (recognizing that for dispatching purposes all freights ran as extra's on the PRR.) Between Altoona and Cleveland, the PRR's premier passenger train on that route (#39, the Clevelander) was scheduled to take 6 hours and 10 minutes, while the Arranged freight log sheets indicate the desired run time for the Banana special between the same city pairs was 7 hours and 25 minutes (including a 45 minute stop in one of PRR's Pittsburgh freight yards (Pitcairn) for a power change and setout of Bananas for Pittsburgh and Columbus), suggesting the Banana special ran at nearly passenger train speeds. But no known tower sheets or traffic study stringlines can back that up. Dave Evans
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Des Plaines Hobbies stocks a lot of historical society magazines. I don't
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remember if SRHA "Ties" was there but you could ask Ron. Tim O'Connor
George, your article sounds very interesting. When it comes out, maybe you can let the list know how to buy copies from SRHA.
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Tony Thompson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
Good point, Tim, but the SRHA makes more money if we buy the copies direct. Just my two centavos. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Aley, Jeff A
Ike,
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I wasn't going to complain about the bandwidth until you said, "it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year's St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs." Now, if you had included Prototype Rails [Cocoa Beach, FL] in that list then I wouldn't have complained. As it is, you might end up in Moderate Jail. :-) Regards, -Jeff Deputy Moderator, STMFC Clinic Chairman, Prototype Rails 2016
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:37 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis? Bananas from Charleston, SC were from ships docked at the Southern Railway owned pier. The Southern rounded up the empties, loaded and dispatched the cars, that may or may not have been Fruit Growers cars. United Fruit issued lists of refrigerator cars that could be used for banana loading. Cars were billed by the Fruit Dispatch Co. A portion of the outbound loads were interchanged to the ACL and SAL at Charleston. Cars on the March 16, 1950 list of acceptable cars included ART (4,035 cars), FGE (4,949), WFE (1,696), BRE (762), IC (498), MDT (4,076), NRC (2,160), PFE (32,345), SFRD (10,176), DL&W (295), NP (1,285) and URT (479) for a total of 62,756 cars. Note, this is not a total of those companies reefers, only those acceptable to Fruit Dispatch. The URT cars, for example have a note "Cars in this series (37000-37999) acceptable if inside wall ribs are not exposed". Some cars could be used for summer loading only. An example waybill for FGE 35936, loaded by United Fruit Sales Corp. off SS Tucurinca #9 (ninth arrival at Charleston) at Sou. Rwy. pier 2, Charleston, SC 9-18-62 to Chicago. Consignee was Inland Trading Co. routed Sou to Cincinnati, Big Four to Kankakee, then IC to Chicago. Gross wt was 91440, tare 56200 and net 35240. Freight charge for 35240 lbs was $444.60, minus $27.41 (W&H ABS?) for a transportation cost of $417.19. Warfage cost was $27.31, ice $13.08 and switching $.77 for a total of $41.16. Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read: Front vents closed plugs in detached Rear vents on irons plugs out iced 2 ton at Charleston SC Keep fans on (maybe inbill can help decipher?) We cannot tell from the waybill if this car actually went to Chicago. The Southern Railway Historical Association's files have quite a few diversion telegrams that describe diversions at various terminals. Further research might let us match a diversion to a particular waybill. In reading through the file I did not realize how many local grocery stores and distributers received car loads of bananas. A large number of cars from Charleston appear to have been billed to Cincinnati for local distribution or further transfer. I am working on a banana article for SRHA's TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year's St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs. The archives includes folders of 60-75 ship arrivals with EVERY outbound train consist. Banana specials were usually about 45 cars, appropriate for a Southern 2-8-2. (I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!) Ike ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links
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David Sieber
In STMFC, George Eichelberger said, "I am working on a banana article for SRHA’s TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year’s St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs."
Ike, I suspect there are many folks beyond Southern Railway fans who would find that material interesting. May I suggest you consider (1) presenting at Prototype Rails (Cocoa Beach) and/or RPM Naperville, or (2) sumitting your banana article to Model Railroad Hobbyist or Railroad Model Craftsman? Either would reach a larger, nationwide audience. Although I model the Far West, I'd be very interested in your presentation/article! Dave Sieber, Reno NV
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George Eichelberger
THIS might get me in the lock-up because they were 1960s cars but the current issue of SRHA TIES has several articles on Southern's "Big John" covered hoppers to accompany the release of ExactRail's absolutely beautiful HO models. It is the first TIES issue with a fold-out page and includes about anything anyone would want to know about the cars and the Big John rate case. (www.srha.net/grab)
SRHA Editor Bill Schafer and Mike Schafer (at White River) did a very nice job with the layout. (Cousins, they must share some kind of railroad gene.) Ike
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Jeff Aley says:
"Now, if you had included Prototype Rails [Cocoa Beach, FL] in that list then I wouldn't have complained. As it is, you might end up in Moderate Jail. :-)" Oh, I don't think we'll have to reserve a cel...uh...room for George in Moderate Jail. I fully expect to see him in Cocoa Beach next Jan. Now...about that whistle. Let's see. When did Southern dieselize? They were supposed to have been the first class 1 RR to do so. Mike Brock Moderate Jail Keeper
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