Topics

Hoppers from early 20th century


Schuyler Larrabee
 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-06-07-15/C1106.jpg

 

Interesting to see wood truss rod hoppers mixed in with early steel hoppers.

 

Schuyler


John Larkin
 

Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track.  Don't  I've ever seen a piece quite like this.  Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?

John Larkin


Eric Hansmann
 

I think that's a main line. It looks heftier than the other tracks and is elevated a bit. As this seems like a sharp S curve, I'm inclined to think the extra rails are guard rails. 

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

On Jun 8, 2015, at 1:59 AM, John Larkin jflarkingrc@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track.  Don't  I've ever seen a piece quite like this.  Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?

John Larkin


Bruce Smith
 

John,

No 6’ gauge in 1912, afaik ;)  

I think that the center track is demonstrating a style of guard rail.  I can’t tell if the guard rails are the inner or outer rails, but there are photos of up to 5 rails on a PRR line at a similar time.  One theory is that the extra rails may have provided additional support for blind locomotive drivers on tighter curves, but that theory has the logical problem that the support is only on one side of the rail, yet the track curves in both directions.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 8, 2015, at 2:59 AM, John Larkin jflarkingrc@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track.  Don't  I've ever seen a piece quite like this.  Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?

John Larkin





water.kresse@...
 

I believe they were wooden flat-bottom gondola cars . . . about ready to bust in the middle.  Good catch. 
 
The C&O kept 40-ton wooden FB gons and hopper cars around through WW One to meet demand for more cars . . . . didn't interchange them and mainly used them on short runs from mines to say blast furnaces.  They had a set of 30-ton wooden gons that got 40-ton trucks and were used to carry limestone on daily twenty-mile round trips. Pig-iron operations picked older cars also. to shuttle materials between various operations on branch lines into the twenties.
 
Al Kresse


From: "'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 11:26:22 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Hoppers from early 20th century

 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-06-07-15/C1106.jpg

 

Interesting to see wood truss rod hoppers mixed in with early steel hoppers.

 

Schuyler



Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 6/8/2015 6:58 AM, water.kresse@... [STMFC] wrote:

I believe they were wooden flat-bottom gondola cars . . . about ready to bust in the middle.  Good catch. 

    John Allen would have loved those!  Interesting that the steel cars have archbar trucks.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


naptownprr
 

Some of the earliest hoppers were also wood - there's one n the museum in Strasburg, PA.

 

Jim Hunter


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 10:35 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Hoppers from early 20th century
unter
 

On 6/8/2015 6:58 AM, water.kresse@... [STMFC] wrote:

I believe they were wooden flat-bottom gondola cars . . . about ready to bust in the middle.  Good catch. 

    John Allen would have loved those!  Interesting that the steel cars have archbar trucks.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Benjamin Hom
 


Jon Miller wrote:
"Interesting that the steel cars have archbar trucks."
 
Considering the date of the photo, there's nothing weird about the mix of cars or the archbar trucks at all.  Keep in mind while the first steel freight cars were hoppers and gons, not all in service coal cars would be replaced right away.  Also, the early steel cars would use existing truck technology, and railroads were reluctant to abandon archbar trucks right away due to sunk costs even as cast sideframe trucks became readily available.  For example, some early PRR Class X29 boxcars were equipped with archbar trucks.  Loree's D&H actually submitted a proposal to re-equip archbar trucks with roller bearings in the 1930s!
 
 
Ben Hom


John Larkin
 

Bruce,
    I looked at the width of the track and it (very) roughly looks like the center two rails are the same as the other tracks in the picture (4-81/2"+/-), leaving the outer rails at a wider gauge, maybe not quite 6'.  You're right, they are too far out to support blind drivers.
     There is a fair amount of curvature so there may have been some desire for guard rails and these could have been somewhat effective in holding a derailed wheel(s) inside the outer rail. They may not have been judged very cost effective since I don't remember seeing much, if any, use elsewhere.
John Larkin



On Monday, June 8, 2015 8:43 AM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
John,

No 6’ gauge in 1912, afaik ;)  

I think that the center track is demonstrating a style of guard rail.  I can’t tell if the guard rails are the inner or outer rails, but there are photos of up to 5 rails on a PRR line at a similar time.  One theory is that the extra rails may have provided additional support for blind locomotive drivers on tighter curves, but that theory has the logical problem that the support is only on one side of the rail, yet the track curves in both directions.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 8, 2015, at 2:59 AM, John Larkin jflarkingrc@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track.  Don't  I've ever seen a piece quite like this.  Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?

John Larkin







water.kresse@...
 

Railroads didn't want to give  up on their parts investments in archbar trucks in 1905-ish timeframe.  Even early cast frames were designed to utilize the journal boxes from old trucks (started on C&O around 1910).  Therefore, as these early steel hopper cars and FB gondola cars started to develop rivet hole opening and cracking issues, they had to be rebuilt in the early mid-1920s.  Forty ton house cars got their de-rated old 50-ton trucks and rebuilt coal cars got the latest cast sideframe trucks.
Al Kresse


From: "Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 10:35:13 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Hoppers from early 20th century

 
On 6/8/2015 6:58 AM, water.kresse@... [STMFC] wrote:

I believe they were wooden flat-bottom gondola cars . . . about ready to bust in the middle.  Good catch. 


    John Allen would have loved those!  Interesting that the steel cars have archbar trucks.


--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Benjamin Hom
 

Jim Hunter wrote:
"Some of the earliest hoppers were also wood - there's one in the museum in Strasburg, PA."
 
PRR Class GG (PY&A 1818 is the car at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania); HO scale model available from Westerfield:
 
 
Ben Hom
 


water.kresse@...
 

That is way ahead of the C&O.  C.P. Huntington believe the railroads only needed to get New River coal down to the barge loading facilities and then let the more efficient Ohio River carry it to the markets.
Al


From: "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 11:15:59 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Hoppers from early 20th century

 

Jim Hunter wrote:
"Some of the earliest hoppers were also wood - there's one in the museum in Strasburg, PA."
 
PRR Class GG (PY&A 1818 is the car at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania); HO scale model available from Westerfield:
 
 
Ben Hom
 



Schuyler Larrabee
 

Yes, John, but this is the DL&W.  There was a good bit of ??? on the erielack list about that gauntlet track.  The speculation is that it’s involved with the scale house in the far distance.

Schuyler

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 4:00 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century

 

 

Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track.  Don't  I've ever seen a piece quite like this.  Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?

 

John Larkin

 


stevecaple@...
 

I'll post a photo of some manipulation I did in CorelDraw X7  -  cropped to section of the three tracks, drew horizontal line between left most track rails (yellow line).  copied that line, it was pretty close to the. gauge of inner set of rails in second track.  Copied line again, changed color to red, and entered x axis dimension as the existing dimension x 54.5 / 36.  That equaled gauge of outer rails in center track  -  if first line was 36", new one was 54.5", of 4' 8 1/2".  Copied it, and copy pretty closely matched distance between rails in right hand track.n So my guess is 3' gauge on left, dual gauge with 3' in center of standard gauge center track and standard gauge on right.

Steve Caple


Ray Breyer
 

And where exactly would that be, "just west of Scranton"?

Occam's Razor applies here: they're guard rails on a sharp S-curve on an incline. And actually, review the other 18,000 images in this collection: this isn't unique on the DL&W.

I'm a bit surprised more people aren't mind-boggled by the lack of fish plates on a high speed mainline.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "stevecaple@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 9:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century



I'll post a photo of some manipulation I did in CorelDraw X7  -  cropped to section of the three tracks, drew horizontal line between left most track rails (yellow line).  copied that line, it was pretty close to the. gauge of inner set of rails in second track.  Copied line again, changed color to red, and entered x axis dimension as the existing dimension x 54.5 / 36.  That equaled gauge of outer rails in center track  -  if first line was 36", new one was 54.5", of 4' 8 1/2".  Copied it, and copy pretty closely matched distance between rails in right hand track.n So my guess is 3' gauge on left, dual gauge with 3' in center of standard gauge center track and standard gauge on right.

Steve Caple




stevecaple@...
 

Tried to post photo to album "Hoppers from early 20th century track ga"  -  said uploaded, bu showed no photos.  is there a nanny delay?


stevecaple@...
 

Tried to upload photo to album "Hoppers from early 20th century track ga"  -  said uploaded, but album show "no photos".  Some kind of moderator delay to keep out porn?

Steve


MDelvec952
 



That bit of dual gauge is a mystery. Scaling from the known standard gauge, the center two rails are in gauge while any combination of other two rails don't work. Too, to accomodate rails at a gauge that much wider than standard required that timbers be used, at least 11-footers, so whatever the reason this was an expensive piece of construction.

Figuring that the police in the photo were there for a reason, a quick search found a newspaper story from May 1912 (just days after the photo was taken) about violence between strikers and police in Scranton, that rocks had been thrown.

But, yes, the variety of loaded coal hoppers in the photo is very interesting                 ....Mike Del Vecchio



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jun 8, 2015 10:15 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century

 
Yes, John, but this is the DL&W.  There was a good bit of ??? on the erielack list about that gauntlet track.  The speculation is that it’s involved with the scale house in the far distance.

Schuyler
 
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 4:00 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century
 
 
Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track.  Don't  I've ever seen a piece quite like this.  Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?
 
John Larkin
 


MDelvec952
 


Fish plates were coming soon.  My thoughts were that they were outside guardrails. Note, too, that there's a switch point on the high rail of the curve.

This the Cayuga Breaker within the city limits of Scranton, and near Cayuga Junction, just a couple of miles from DL&W's Keyser Valley Car Shops which maintained every car in the photo                 ....Mike Del Vecchio



-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jun 8, 2015 10:17 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century

 
And where exactly would that be, "just west of Scranton"?

Occam's Razor applies here: they're guard rails on a sharp S-curve on an incline. And actually, review the other 18,000 images in this collection: this isn't unique on the DL&W.

I'm a bit surprised more people aren't mind-boggled by the lack of fish plates on a high speed mainline.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "stevecaple@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 9:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century



I'll post a photo of some manipulation I did in CorelDraw X7  -  cropped to section of the three tracks, drew horizontal line between left most track rails (yellow line).  copied that line, it was pretty close to the. gauge of inner set of rails in second track.  Copied line again, changed color to red, and entered x axis dimension as the existing dimension x 54.5 / 36.  That equaled gauge of outer rails in center track  -  if first line was 36", new one was 54.5", of 4' 8 1/2".  Copied it, and copy pretty closely matched distance between rails in right hand track.n So my guess is 3' gauge on left, dual gauge with 3' in center of standard gauge center track and standard gauge on right.

Steve Caple




Schuyler Larrabee
 

Ray, two thoughts:

1.     Viewing these images pretty much daily as I am on the erielack email list, where five images are posted daily, the use of tie plates (which I presume you meant to say) is the rare instance, not the norm, not at all.

2.     In later years, the DL&W may have been a high speed main line, though it never would have rivaled the Nickel Plate.  But in 1912, or thereabouts, speed was not the issue.  We’re moving coal here, not perishables.  Coal doesn’t really spoil in transit.  Now, yes, guys, I know that coal will age and lose some of its caloric value over time, but we’re probably shipping coal in this case to someplace like Coalberg, NJ (no longer named that) where the DL&W stored literal mountains of coal each summer so it was ready to be reloaded and shipped to market in cold weather.  Six or eight months in a pile won’t damage coal much at all.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

And where exactly would that be, "just west of Scranton"?

 

Occam's Razor applies here: they're guard rails on a sharp S-curve on an incline. And actually, review the other 18,000 images in this collection: this isn't unique on the DL&W.

 

I'm a bit surprised more people aren't mind-boggled by the lack of fish plates on a high speed mainline.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 


From: "stevecaple@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 9:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century

 



I'll post a photo of some manipulation I did in CorelDraw X7  -  cropped to section of the three tracks, drew horizontal line between left most track rails (yellow line).  copied that line, it was pretty close to the. gauge of inner set of rails in second track.  Copied line again, changed color to red, and entered x axis dimension as the existing dimension x 54.5 / 36.  That equaled gauge of outer rails in center track  -  if first line was 36", new one was 54.5", of 4' 8 1/2".  Copied it, and copy pretty closely matched distance between rails in right hand track.n So my guess is 3' gauge on left, dual gauge with 3' in center of standard gauge center track and standard gauge on right.

Steve Caple