Hoppers from early 20th century
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wdzwonchyk
This could be narrow gauge mine locomotive trackage. A variety of gauges were laid in and around the anthracite mines. Wayne Dzwonchyk I don't know enough about the DL&W to say anything about whether or not they ever had interchange with a 3 ft narrow gauge road. Only that the proportion of the track gauges fits the ratio of 36" to 56.5", so the center track looks like dual gauge on the same centerline. If hte time and location of the photograph make it impossible, I stand corrected. |
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water.kresse@...
Steve,
On the C&O's Goshen (three-rail) Branch, the 3-foot narrow gauged line shared one track with the standard gauged line from 1880s through pre-WW1. Apparently the branch-line rails were close enough to the narrow-gauge iron ore mine and blast furnace track in their weights to share one side. The Victoria blast furnace yard was mixed with standard, narrow, and three-rail tracks (WV coke and local limestone came in, and pigs went out, via standard gauge cars). During the depression, the slag-recovery folks were force to build a transfer tipple to load all the slag on to standard gauged cars before entering the C&O line. The C&O folks were always worried about the furnace folks messing up their tracks (with their overloaded slag cars) that serviced tank cars and timber flat cars going to paying customers down the line. Interesting the current maps show that the branch-line after the first mile and half off the main is still narrow gauged ROW property.
Al
From: "stevecaple@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 1:38:06 AM Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century I don't know enough about the DL&W to say anything about whether or not they ever had interchange with a 3 ft narrow gauge road. Only that the proportion of the track gauges fits the ratio of 36" to 56.5", so the center track looks like dual gauge on the same centerline. If hte time and location of the photograph make it impossible, I stand corrected. |
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stevecaple@...
I don't know enough about the DL&W to say anything about whether or not they ever had interchange with a 3 ft narrow gauge road. Only that the proportion of the track gauges fits the ratio of 36" to 56.5", so the center track looks like dual gauge on the same centerline. If hte time and location of the photograph make it impossible, I stand corrected.
Steve |
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Schuyler Larrabee
You realize, Steve, that this is NOT the Erie, but the DL&W.
Schuyler
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 11:30 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century
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Ray Breyer
Hi everyone, It seems as though this thread has gone "off the rails" discussing what those extra tracks on the left side of the image are, rather than focusing on the FAR more interesting and important (and in-scope) freight cars to the right. Considering that it's far more likely that there are more general pre-WWI modelers here than there are DL&W Scranton Division modelers, we really should be focusing on that FASCINATING string of coal-carrying cars instead of a small stretch of very specific right-of-way. Here are a few notes about what I "think" I'm seeing in photo C1106 (which was taken just west of Scranton on 5/2/1912): 1) There are three types of cars in view: hoppers, solid-bottom gondolas, and hopper-bottom gondolas. Each car is a specific car type, built to do different things for different reasons. a) Hopper cars have slope sheets and rapid discharge doors on the bottom. b) Solid bottom gondolas are just open-topped boxes with a flat bottom and NO doors, and come with several different side heights, especially when dealing with wood construction freight cars. c) Hopper-bottom gondolas are a hybrid, and are a good example of the frugality of early period railroading. They're more similar to solid-bottom gondolas in that they "mostly" have a flat bottom, with between two and four "hopper-like doors" cut into the floor. Hopper bottom gondolas specifically lack slope sheets for true rapid discharging, and require a lot of man-muscle to empty (manpower is cheap in 1912. Steel and specialty car are expensive, and automatic unloaders are basically H.G. Wells-inspired fiction). 2) All of the cars in this photo APPEAR to be DL&W equipment, which is no surprise: before the 1920s it was far more common to see nothing but home road cars in large groups like this. And while this is a "staged" photograph, it's not very staged: chances are extremely good that all the photographer did was to tell the security agents to "stand over there", and that the car selection was 100% random and "natural". 3) The steel hoppers seem to be mostly DL&W 72000-75999 series cars (built in 1905) with one or two 69900-69999 series cars (built 1900). 4) the DL&W 5/1915 ORER capitulation lists 2,528 gondolas and 10,368 "coal cars". A more precise breakdown of the cars is as follows: Gondola, all-wood, 31'5" OL, low-side: 196 cars Gondola, all-wood, 31'5', high side: 1 car Gondola, all-wood, 31'5", "conventional duty": 838 cars Gondola, "steel" (with all-wood sides). 36'5": 495 cars Gondola, "steel", 40'5", four drop doors: 1,000 cars Gondola, hopper bottom, all-wood, 30'6" to 36'4", 4,245 cars Gondola, hopper bottom, all-steel, 30'6", 10 cars Hopper, all-steel, 30'6" or 34'6", 6,113 cars or: 31' all-wood gondolas: 1,035 (8%) 40' composite gondolas: 1,495 (12%) All-wood hopper bottom gons: 4,245 (33%) all-steel hopper bottom gons: 10 (0%) All-steel hoppers: 6,113 (47%) 5) I count 21 cars in this photo: 13 steel hoppers, six hopper-bottom gondolas, and two plain gondolas. Statistically, if these really are all DL&W cars there should be far more of the all-wood, hopper bottom cars; steel coal-carrying cars are over-represented. (that said, "statistics" really don't mean a thing in the real world, and this mix is most likely "normal") 6) ALL of these cars have archbar trucks. The Archbar truck ban is nearly 30 years in the future and T-section Bettendorf cast trucks were only introduced in 1904; MOST freight cars will be delivered with archbar trucks for another decade. 7) Archbar trucks under all-steel, "modern" cars like these hoppers is nothing new. Early PRR and B&O all-steel freight cars had them (including X29 and derivitave boxcars), and archbars pop up in AC&F builder's photos through the late 1920s. The NYC was an early and widespread adopter of cast sideframe trucks under everything, but few other railroads were until much later. (PS: notice that it's May, and there's basically nothing green growing at all. Welcome to the world of no EPA and lots of raw pollution) Regards, Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL |
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Ray Breyer
Hi Schuyler,
1. Viewing these images pretty much daily as I am on the erielack email list, where five imagesOops! Yes, I did mean tie, not fish! That's what I get for posting late at night... But: I'm not disagreeing that the use of TIE plates was a rarity on the DL&W at this time. I was just pointing it out for everyone else on the list, who are too used to post-WWII railroading. 2. In later years, the DL&W may have been a high speed main line, though it never would haveI was referring to the mainline in general, not these specific cars and how they'd be handled. If this is "just west of Scranton" then it's right around Factoryville or Dalton. The schedule for First Class trains between Scranton and Binghamton states 58.55 miles in 1.25 hours, for an average speed of 46 MPH. That's pretty darned fast for ANY mainline. But......I suppose we've spent far too much time talking about track, and not cars! More on those soon. Regards, Ray Breyer Elgin, IL |
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Steve Caple <stevecaple@...>
OK, I thought it might be moderation delay - just didn't see it explained. Given the flood of porn and worse, no wonder they have to do that.
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Scott H. Haycock
After Blowing this image up, I don't think the structure in the middle distance is a scale house. It appears too large for that purpose, and has no windows facing the tracks. The long, thin, vertical object just to the right of this structure looks like an electrical pole with it's cross arms edge on to the plane of view. Considering the power lines to the right of the cut of hoppers on the higher track, this power pole could be connected there, and supply electricity to the structure, which may be a pump house for the nearby water tank. Scott Haycock Yes, John, but this is the DL&W. There was a good bit of ??? on the erielack list about that gauntlet track. The speculation is that it’s involved with the scale house in the far distance.
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 4:00 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century
Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track. Don't I've ever seen a piece quite like this. Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?
John Larkin
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Schuyler Larrabee
Chill, Steve. STMFC rules say that all photos uploaded have to be reviewed and permitted by (cough) “management.” AKA Mr. Brock or his west coast henchman, Mr. Aley. Your photo is in the queue to be reviewed. Look sometime tomorrow.
Schuyler
Wish I could upload a photo - process says I have, but album remains empty. Google has so thoroughly screwed up Picasa that I can't find my old Picasa albums, let alone set up a new public one. And they want their tentacles on ALL the photo files on your computer. Anyone know what's with photo process here? How can I add to photostream here? |
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stevecaple@...
Wish I could upload a photo - process says I have, but album remains empty. Google has so thoroughly screwed up Picasa that I can't find my old Picasa albums, let alone set up a new public one. And they want their tentacles on ALL the photo files on your computer. Anyone know what's with photo process here? How can I add to photostream here?
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Schuyler Larrabee
Ray, two thoughts: 1. Viewing these images pretty much daily as I am on the erielack email list, where five images are posted daily, the use of tie plates (which I presume you meant to say) is the rare instance, not the norm, not at all. 2. In later years, the DL&W may have been a high speed main line, though it never would have rivaled the Nickel Plate. But in 1912, or thereabouts, speed was not the issue. We’re moving coal here, not perishables. Coal doesn’t really spoil in transit. Now, yes, guys, I know that coal will age and lose some of its caloric value over time, but we’re probably shipping coal in this case to someplace like Coalberg, NJ (no longer named that) where the DL&W stored literal mountains of coal each summer so it was ready to be reloaded and shipped to market in cold weather. Six or eight months in a pile won’t damage coal much at all.
Schuyler
And where exactly would that be, "just west of Scranton"?
Occam's Razor applies here: they're guard rails on a sharp S-curve on an incline. And actually, review the other 18,000 images in this collection: this isn't unique on the DL&W.
I'm a bit surprised more people aren't mind-boggled by the lack of fish plates on a high speed mainline.
Ray Breyer
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MDelvec952
Fish plates were coming soon. My thoughts were that they were outside guardrails. Note, too, that there's a switch point on the high rail of the curve. This the Cayuga Breaker within the city limits of Scranton, and near Cayuga Junction, just a couple of miles from DL&W's Keyser Valley Car Shops which maintained every car in the photo ....Mike Del Vecchio -----Original Message----- From: Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Mon, Jun 8, 2015 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century
And where exactly would that be, "just west of Scranton"?
Occam's Razor applies here: they're guard rails on a sharp S-curve on an incline. And actually, review the other 18,000 images in this collection: this isn't unique on the DL&W.
I'm a bit surprised more people aren't mind-boggled by the lack of fish plates on a high speed mainline.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
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MDelvec952
That bit of dual gauge is a mystery. Scaling from the known standard gauge, the center two rails are in gauge while any combination of other two rails don't work. Too, to accomodate rails at a gauge that much wider than standard required that timbers be used, at least 11-footers, so whatever the reason this was an expensive piece of construction. Figuring that the police in the photo were there for a reason, a quick search found a newspaper story from May 1912 (just days after the photo was taken) about violence between strikers and police in Scranton, that rocks had been thrown. But, yes, the variety of loaded coal hoppers in the photo is very interesting ....Mike Del Vecchio -----Original Message----- From: 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Mon, Jun 8, 2015 10:15 pm Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century Yes, John, but this is the DL&W. There was a good bit of ??? on the erielack list about that gauntlet track. The speculation is that it’s involved with the scale house in the far distance.
Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 4:00 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track. Don't I've ever seen a piece quite like this. Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?
John Larkin
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stevecaple@...
Tried to upload photo to album "Hoppers from early 20th century track ga" - said uploaded, but album show "no photos". Some kind of moderator delay to keep out porn?
Steve |
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stevecaple@...
Tried to post photo to album "Hoppers from early 20th century track ga" - said uploaded, bu showed no photos. is there a nanny delay?
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Ray Breyer
And where exactly would that be, "just west of Scranton"? Occam's Razor applies here: they're guard rails on a sharp S-curve on an incline. And actually, review the other 18,000 images in this collection: this isn't unique on the DL&W. I'm a bit surprised more people aren't mind-boggled by the lack of fish plates on a high speed mainline. Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
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stevecaple@...
I'll post a photo of some manipulation I did in CorelDraw X7 - cropped to section of the three tracks, drew horizontal line between left most track rails (yellow line). copied that line, it was pretty close to the. gauge of inner set of rails in second track. Copied line again, changed color to red, and entered x axis dimension as the existing dimension x 54.5 / 36. That equaled gauge of outer rails in center track - if first line was 36", new one was 54.5", of 4' 8 1/2". Copied it, and copy pretty closely matched distance between rails in right hand track.n So my guess is 3' gauge on left, dual gauge with 3' in center of standard gauge center track and standard gauge on right.
Steve Caple |
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Schuyler Larrabee
Yes, John, but this is the DL&W. There was a good bit of ??? on the erielack list about that gauntlet track. The speculation is that it’s involved with the scale house in the far distance.
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 4:00 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hoppers from early 20th century
Also interesting is the center track which looks like dual guage or long gauntlet track. Don't I've ever seen a piece quite like this. Wasn't the Erir 6' originally?
John Larkin
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water.kresse@...
That is way ahead of the C&O. C.P. Huntington believe the railroads only needed to get New River coal down to the barge loading facilities and then let the more efficient Ohio River carry it to the markets.
Al
From: "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 11:15:59 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Hoppers from early 20th century
Jim Hunter wrote:
"Some of the earliest hoppers were also wood - there's one in the museum in Strasburg, PA."
PRR Class GG (PY&A 1818 is the car at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania); HO scale model available from Westerfield:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=GG.gif&fr=cl
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C10415%5C182.JPG Ben Hom
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Benjamin Hom
Jim Hunter wrote: "Some of the earliest hoppers were also wood - there's one in the museum in Strasburg, PA." PRR Class GG (PY&A 1818 is the car at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania); HO scale model available from Westerfield: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=GG.gif&fr=cl http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C10415%5C182.JPG Ben Hom |
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