Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern flat car


Clark Cooper
 

Gents,

Ted Culotta has a neat photo on eBay of a WCF&N flat car with a set of Farmall tractors for a load:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterloo-Cedar-Falls-Northern-WCF-N-400-flat-car-Farmall-tractors-5x8-photo-/371354223541

Not being a flat car expert, where would one start to model this car?

Thanks!
-Clark Cooper
(the other Iowa Clark)


Greg Martin
 

And what color was the basic car color and what color was the lettering.
 
TIA
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 6/17/2015 5:23:41 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Gents,

Ted Culotta has a neat photo on eBay of a WCF&N flat car with a set of Farmall tractors for a load:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterloo-Cedar-Falls-Northern-WCF-N-400-flat-car-Farmall-tractors-5x8-photo-/371354223541

Not being a flat car expert, where would one start to model this car?

Thanks!
-Clark Cooper
(the other Iowa Clark)


Tim O'Connor
 

It appears to have a thin (top-to-bottom) side profile especially over
the trucks so that rules out kitbashing from any HO kits that I can think
of ... The end sills look familiar, perhaps a plastic part is available or
can be taken from a donor car. Archer rivets have definitely made doing a
scratchbuilt flat car less intimidating.

Absolutely no idea of paint or lettering details.

Tim O'Connor

Ted Culotta has a neat photo on eBay of a WCF&N flat car with a set of Farmall tractors for a load:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterloo-Cedar-Falls-Northern-WCF-N-400-flat-car-Farmall-tractors-5x8-photo-/371354223541

Not being a flat car expert, where would one start to model this car?

Thanks!
-Clark Cooper


mwbauers
 

It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay…..

I don’t know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and using the blanked car to properly detail. 

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jun 17, 2015, at 8:57 PM, Tim O'Connor  wrote:


It appears to have a thin (top-to-bottom) side profile especially over
the trucks so that rules out kitbashing from any HO kits that I can think
of ... The end sills look familiar, perhaps a plastic part is available or
can be taken from a donor car. Archer rivets have definitely made doing a
scratchbuilt flat car less intimidating.

Absolutely no idea of paint or lettering details.

Tim O'Connor

>Ted Culotta has a neat photo on eBay of a WCF&N flat car with a set of Farmall tractors for a load:
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterloo-Cedar-Falls-Northern-WCF-N-400-flat-car-Farmall-tractors-5x8-photo-/371354223541
>
>Not being a flat car expert, where would one start to model this car?
>
>Thanks!
>-Clark Cooper


Tim O'Connor
 

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


  It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay�.. I don't
  know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
  using the blanked car to properly detail.
  Mike Bauers

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/371354223541


mwbauers
 

Their metal one may be the better profile


Or the plastic one looks more likely seen from a side view….


Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


  It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay….. I don't
  know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
  using the blanked car to properly detail. 
  Mike Bauers

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/371354223541VISIT YOUR GROUP 


.
 


Clark Cooper
 

A good compromise might be to take the plastic Varney flat and build new side and end sills, keeping the deck and underframe as they are. In the photo it looks like there might be a center sill that hangs down a bit lower than the side sills, but it's hard to tell.

WCF&N was relatively small, about 81 miles of mainline. I wonder if this was a second-hand car.

-Clark Cooper

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] wrote:

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay….. I don't
know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
using the blanked car to properly detail.
Mike Bauers


Ken Roth
 

Hi Clark, and others,

I have been looking for information on this car for several years!  So glad to finally see a picture. This is one of 25 cars in WCFN series 4000-4024.  1950 ORER shows overall length 48' 6".  Deck width 10'.  Deck height 3' 10".  Capy 100000 lbs.  Now, where's the person who knows the color?  And would our truck experts please chime in on the trucks for this car.

I have an SP conductor's log which shows one of these cars: #4021 headed over the Siskiyous to Ashland, Oregon (empty) in Sept. of 1950.

Ken Roth


Rob Adams
 

Guys;

Your conclusion that the Varney car could be a starting point assumes the prototype car to be a 40-ish footer.

The WCF&N flat in this photo is one of 25 cars in listed in the ORER as of October 1949 in series 4000-4024 (there was not a 400-series of flats on the road). The register entries list them as 47' 10" in length and 10' wide, considerably larger than the Varney flat. I've not yet been able to determine the origins of these cars, but based on the construction features and the fact that this series of flats were not listed on the WCF&N roster in the either 1928 or 1937 ORER entries, they were very likely second hand cars (the case for much of the Cedar Valley Road's equipment).

Perhaps just as interesting as the car is the lading. That it is loaded with tractors is predictable, but the color of them is what strikes me as ironic. The Waterloo, Iowa John Deere tractor plant was a major on-line customer of the WCF&N, and the road hauled many, many flat cars of John Deere tractors over the years. For this car to be carrying a load of Farmall tractors (Model H?) is almost sacrilege.

Kind regards,

Rob Adams
Wellman, IA

On 6/17/15 11:06 PM, Clark Cooper csc@mchsi.com [STMFC] wrote:
A good compromise might be to take the plastic Varney flat and build new side and end sills, keeping the deck and underframe as they are. In the photo it looks like there might be a center sill that hangs down a bit lower than the side sills, but it's hard to tell.

WCF&N was relatively small, about 81 miles of mainline. I wonder if this was a second-hand car.

-Clark Cooper

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] wrote:

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay�.. I don't
know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
using the blanked car to properly detail.
Mike Bauers

------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





Rob Adams
 

I should have added that the few available color images of WCF&N freight equipment showed it to be painted an oxide red/brown color. I've never seen a color image of their flat cars. Stenciling was most likely white, though aluminum is also a possibility. Some of the WCF&N motors and other equipment bore aluminum stenciling. Either way, weathering will take care of any questions.

Trucks appear to be a 50-ton Andrews U-section.

Rob Adams

On 6/18/15 12:04 AM, Rob Adams steamera@netins.net [STMFC] wrote:
Guys;

Your conclusion that the Varney car could be a starting point assumes
the prototype car to be a 40-ish footer.

The WCF&N flat in this photo is one of 25 cars in listed in the ORER as
of October 1949 in series 4000-4024 (there was not a 400-series of flats
on the road). The register entries list them as 47' 10" in length and
10' wide, considerably larger than the Varney flat. I've not yet been
able to determine the origins of these cars, but based on the
construction features and the fact that this series of flats were not
listed on the WCF&N roster in the either 1928 or 1937 ORER entries, they
were very likely second hand cars (the case for much of the Cedar Valley
Road's equipment).

Perhaps just as interesting as the car is the lading. That it is loaded
with tractors is predictable, but the color of them is what strikes me
as ironic. The Waterloo, Iowa John Deere tractor plant was a major
on-line customer of the WCF&N, and the road hauled many, many flat cars
of John Deere tractors over the years. For this car to be carrying a
load of Farmall tractors (Model H?) is almost sacrilege.

Kind regards,

Rob Adams
Wellman, IA



On 6/17/15 11:06 PM, Clark Cooper csc@mchsi.com [STMFC] wrote:
A good compromise might be to take the plastic Varney flat and build new side and end sills, keeping the deck and underframe as they are. In the photo it looks like there might be a center sill that hangs down a bit lower than the side sills, but it's hard to tell.

WCF&N was relatively small, about 81 miles of mainline. I wonder if this was a second-hand car.

-Clark Cooper

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] wrote:

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay�.. I don't
know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
using the blanked car to properly detail.
Mike Bauers
------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links






------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





Tim O'Connor
 

Rob

Yep, I was sure the photo showed a 40-41 ft car -- very surprised it is
47'10".

This is how I would build it -- take the Athearn 50' flat and file off the
stake pockets and rivets. I like Athearn's plastic formula because it files
so easily and so smoothly. Also sand the deck completely off. Remove a 2'2"
section from anywhere in the middle.

Then add 12 stake pockets -- simple pieces of U channel. Add Archer rivets,
and an AMB laser cut overhanging deck. Voila. Lettering, on the other hand...

Tim O'Connor

Your conclusion that the Varney car could be a starting point assumes
the prototype car to be a 40-ish footer.
Rob Adams


mwbauers
 

Let's measure one of those Varney flats and then consider either splicing two together or just plain cutting to size parts.

If the truck region and the depth of the sides match up well to the Waterloo car, splicing would serve one well.

Mike Bauers

On Jun 18, 2015, at 12:04 AM, "Rob Adams steamera@netins.net [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Guys;

Your conclusion that the Varney car could be a starting point assumes
the prototype car to be a 40-ish footer.

The WCF&N flat in this photo is one of 25 cars in listed in the ORER as
of October 1949 in series 4000-4024 (there was not a 400-series of flats
on the road). The register entries list them as 47' 10" in length and
10' wide, considerably larger than the Varney flat. I've not yet been
able to determine the origins of these cars, but based on the
construction features and the fact that this series of flats were not
listed on the WCF&N roster in the either 1928 or 1937 ORER entries, they
were very likely second hand cars (the case for much of the Cedar Valley
Road's equipment).

Perhaps just as interesting as the car is the lading. That it is loaded
with tractors is predictable, but the color of them is what strikes me
as ironic. The Waterloo, Iowa John Deere tractor plant was a major
on-line customer of the WCF&N, and the road hauled many, many flat cars
of John Deere tractors over the years. For this car to be carrying a
load of Farmall tractors (Model H?) is almost sacrilege.

Kind regards,

Rob Adams
Wellman, IA



On 6/17/15 11:06 PM, Clark Cooper csc@mchsi.com [STMFC] wrote:
A good compromise might be to take the plastic Varney flat and build new side and end sills, keeping the deck and underframe as they are. In the photo it looks like there might be a center sill that hangs down a bit lower than the side sills, but it's hard to tell.

WCF&N was relatively small, about 81 miles of mainline. I wonder if this was a second-hand car.

-Clark Cooper

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] wrote:

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay….. I don't
know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
using the blanked car to properly detail.
Mike Bauers

------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



Greg Martin
 

I have an old metal one and it is crude and mostly unless you are a collector which I am not.
 
I am thinking the Tyco might be a better start but I would have to count stake pockets and if that were wrong Clark has a solution.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:01:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Their metal one may be the better profile



mwbauers
 

Then you have a template from which to make new sides from……..

The lines of the thing is what I find to be matching. No matter what car you choose to use for the bulk of the model.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jun 18, 2015, at 1:39 PM, tgregmrtn wrote:


I have an old metal one and it is crude and mostly unless you are a collector which I am not. 
 
I am thinking the Tyco might be a better start but I would have to count stake pockets and if that were wrong Clark has a solution. 
 
Greg Martin 
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean 
 
In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:01:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Their metal one may be the better profile 


Greg Martin
 

Mike,
 
Have you ever seen this car in the flesh? It appears to be stamped and them bent metal.  I am not sure how you would use it as a template for a car 48' long. 
 
If there were more prototypes for the car it might be a good excuse to fabricate one for SHAKE_N_TAKE but for now it appears to a 25 car lot, until we can find an other road from which they came from.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 6/18/2015 8:02:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Then you have a template from which to make new sides from……..


The lines of the thing is what I find to be matching. No matter what car you choose to use for the bulk of the model.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi


mwbauers
 

You want the shapes of the tapered ends, the taper to the drop sides. Then make it a side with a longer middle.

You can do the same with a scaled print out of a straight on view of the side or any similar drawing from model railroading going back a far as the '30's.

You should be able to find a mostly matching car drawing in the several downloadable Car Builders Cyclopedias PDF conversions published between 1910 and 1940.

You may have to stretch the center section to have a long enough car. But the prototype engineering of the car was done in much the same way.

The truck-coupler ends are constrained by the requirements of the standard equipment used there. The center section would be a beefed up under frame, if only by the use of more lateral bracing distributed over the longer length of the middle section of the flat car. Thus the bolster-truck-coupler sections of the car would be very much the same as even on a shorter flatcar.

That is why I say find a somewhat similar flatcar and splice it to be longer in the middle.... Even if you use it as a template retaining the critical dimensions of the end sections.


Mike Bauers


On Jun 18, 2015, at 11:18 PM, "tgregmrtn@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Mike,
 
Have you ever seen this car in the flesh? It appears to be stamped and them bent metal.  I am not sure how you would use it as a template for a car 48' long. 
 
If there were more prototypes for the car it might be a good excuse to fabricate one for SHAKE_N_TAKE but for now it appears to a 25 car lot, until we can find an other road from which they came from.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
In a message dated 6/18/2015 8:02:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Then you have a template from which to make new sides from……..




Ken Roth
 

After studying this photo some more, I see a lot of similarity to the "stretch" USRA-style flats used by the C&NW and Frisco (take a look at the Sunshine flyers for Martin Lofton's resin kits), which were also designed for carrying farm equipment.  Thus, perhaps another starting point for a model would be to splice two Red Caboose 42' USRA kits for the sides and underframe, then scratchbuild the channel ends.  You would have to sand off the deck of course, and replace with overhanging deck.  Stake pockets would also have to be different.
Of course, with Archer Rivets and styrene, how hard is it to just scratchbuild the sides?

AND, more interestingly, I see the brake rod runs OUTSIDE of the trucks and the brake staff is mounted near the outside corner, like the Pacific Electric did on its flats and boxcars.  This was done so the cars could negotiate the tight traction curves.  This would make this car stand out as something less run of the mill.

Ken Roth


Merlyn Lauber
 

Rob and others: To follow up on this flat, I have color slides of #4012 taken in 1959 and 1970 and the car is Black with white lettering. I also found a slide of #X4020 also taken in 1970 in the Brown Or Oxide Red/Brown you mention. Checking with Bob Levis and his extensive collection of WCF&N records, the cars were listed at 48'-4" and 48'-3" over end beams. The records do not list colors. The X4020 was in work train service and may have been repainted, but the paint appears to be an older paint job; by that I mean not freshly painted. I hope this helps those that want to model this car.

Merlyn Lauber

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Adams steamera@netins.net [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 12:16:50 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern flat car

I should have added that the few available color images of WCF&N freight
equipment showed it to be painted an oxide red/brown color. I've never
seen a color image of their flat cars. Stenciling was most likely
white, though aluminum is also a possibility. Some of the WCF&N motors
and other equipment bore aluminum stenciling. Either way, weathering
will take care of any questions.

Trucks appear to be a 50-ton Andrews U-section.

Rob Adams

On 6/18/15 12:04 AM, Rob Adams steamera@netins.net [STMFC] wrote:
Guys;

Your conclusion that the Varney car could be a starting point assumes
the prototype car to be a 40-ish footer.

The WCF&N flat in this photo is one of 25 cars in listed in the ORER as
of October 1949 in series 4000-4024 (there was not a 400-series of flats
on the road). The register entries list them as 47' 10" in length and
10' wide, considerably larger than the Varney flat. I've not yet been
able to determine the origins of these cars, but based on the
construction features and the fact that this series of flats were not
listed on the WCF&N roster in the either 1928 or 1937 ORER entries, they
were very likely second hand cars (the case for much of the Cedar Valley
Road's equipment).

Perhaps just as interesting as the car is the lading. That it is loaded
with tractors is predictable, but the color of them is what strikes me
as ironic. The Waterloo, Iowa John Deere tractor plant was a major
on-line customer of the WCF&N, and the road hauled many, many flat cars
of John Deere tractors over the years. For this car to be carrying a
load of Farmall tractors (Model H?) is almost sacrilege.

Kind regards,

Rob Adams
Wellman, IA



On 6/17/15 11:06 PM, Clark Cooper csc@mchsi.com [STMFC] wrote:
A good compromise might be to take the plastic Varney flat and build new side and end sills, keeping the deck and underframe as they are. In the photo it looks like there might be a center sill that hangs down a bit lower than the side sills, but it's hard to tell.

WCF&N was relatively small, about 81 miles of mainline. I wonder if this was a second-hand car.

-Clark Cooper

On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] wrote:

Mike

I would not call it a "match" but I had to look it up as I'd never seen one of these
before. Anyway the sill depth over the bolsters is good but the fishbelly is too shallow
and would have to be deepened. But if the stake pockets are a match this Varney car could
be a good starting point for a kitbash. Also the Varney car has the deck overhang like the
prototype, often seen on farm equipment flats.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391175388139

Tim O'


It does match the Varney Flatcars, both plastic and metal ones. Spotted on eBay….. I don't
know how much rework you might do on one. You might end up sanding all details off and
using the blanked car to properly detail.
Mike Bauers
------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links






------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links







------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links