1. RealSTMFC | Main
  2. Topics

prototype for Pemco 53-foot flatcar?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Pemco made a 53-foot flatcar with riveted fishbelly sides and 16 stake pockets. The thin portion of the sides above the trucks extends a bit further inboard than most designs. Does this car have a prototype? Trying to add some flatcar variety to a friend's layout.

Here's a page with pictures of the model:

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id8.html

Scott Chatfield
Tim O'Connor
 

Scott

Not to my knowledge -- that inboard taper doesn't look like any other
I can recall. There is a very fine model of a 16 pocket, 53'6" flat car
available -- the former Red Caboose SP F-70-7 (tooling now owned by the
SPH&TS).

Tim O'

Pemco made a 53-foot flatcar with riveted fishbelly sides and 16 stake pockets. The thin portion of the sides above the trucks extends a bit further inboard than most designs. Does this car have a prototype? Trying to add some flatcar variety to a friend's layout.

Here's a page with pictures of the model:

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id8.html

Scott Chatfield
water.kresse@...
 

You might want to check out the Pere Marquette's flat cars circa WW2.  My PM Freight Cars book is buried I hope back in the spare room closet.
 
Al Kresse

From: "blindog@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 1:39:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] prototype for Pemco 53-foot flatcar?

 

Pemco made a 53-foot flatcar with riveted fishbelly sides and 16 stake pockets. The thin portion of the sides above the trucks extends a bit further inboard than most designs. Does this car have a prototype? Trying to add some flatcar variety to a friend's layout.

Here's a page with pictures of the model:

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id8.html

Scott Chatfield
rwitt_2000
 

The side sill profile looks more like some DODX flat cars in their 38000 series, but the Pemco model lacks the three axle heavy duty trucks. I believe AHM once made a model this prototype with more correct trucks

DODX 38063 with USN 6500308

  DODX 38200

 

And there are many other examples at this site.

Bob Witt
Richard Townsend
 

The Pemco car appears to be a variation (in terms of the cut-outs on the deck above the side grabs, and the use of 4-wheel trucks) on the Roco/AHM/etc. flat car that had 6-wheel trucks. The space needed for those longer trucks necessitated a longer thin portion before the fishbelly started. The angled bottom to the car ends in side view, the towing eye under the third stake pockets from the ends, plus the number of stake pockets, are the give-aways. I'm not sure of the original prototype, but I am using them lettered for the US Army, for a train hauling Roco M-47 tanks. They are at least similar to the USAX/DODX flats used for that purpose, and may have been based on those army cars.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindog@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2015 10:39 am
Subject: [STMFC] prototype for Pemco 53-foot flatcar?

 
Pemco made a 53-foot flatcar with riveted fishbelly sides and 16 stake pockets. The thin portion of the sides above the trucks extends a bit further inboard than most designs. Does this car have a prototype? Trying to add some flatcar variety to a friend's layout.

Here's a page with pictures of the model:

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id8.html

Scott Chatfield
Tim O'Connor
 


I have a question about those USAX (later DODX) flats -- The 1955 ORER
lists them as 38016-38665 and shows 550 cars -- a fully loaded series

But: I have a scan of a photo of USAX 38005 -- which appears to be exactly
the same car -- Yet there is no listing for 38005 or other numbers before
the 38016 series in the ORER. The scan appears to be from a book or magazine
and is supposedly from 1949.

According to my notes 38016-38655 were built by MAGOR in 1953.

Tim O'Connor




The side sill profile looks more like some DODX flat cars in their 38000 series, but the Pemco model lacks the three axle heavy duty trucks. I believe AHM once made a model this prototype with more correct trucks

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3285149 (DODX 38063)
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tim,

Ah, a mystery! A military secret, perhaps? :~) . My 1958 ORER lists  38016-38665 with 640 cars. Perhaps your lower-numbered cars were added to the 38016 group at some point? Maybe the earlier group went overseas, say during the Korean War, and were not returned to CONUS. They might also have been disposed of as surplus, or reassigned to on-base use and no longer in interchange. Lots of possibilities here.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/1/15 7:57 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:

 


I have a question about those USAX (later DODX) flats -- The 1955 ORER
lists them as 38016-38665 and shows 550 cars -- a fully loaded series

But: I have a scan of a photo of USAX 38005 -- which appears to be exactly
the same car -- Yet there is no listing for 38005 or other numbers before
the 38016 series in the ORER. The scan appears to be from a book or magazine
and is supposedly from 1949.

According to my notes 38016-38655 were built by MAGOR in 1953.

Tim O'Connor




The side sill profile looks more like some DODX flat cars in their 38000 series, but the Pemco model lacks the three axle heavy duty trucks. I believe AHM once made a model this prototype with more correct trucks

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3285149 (DODX 38063)
Tim O'Connor
 


Further examination of the January 1953 ORER --

USAX 38000        39' 0" well flat
     38006        46' 8" flat
     38008        41' 1" flat
     38010-38015  46' 8" flats

If I had a 1951 or 1952 or 1954 ORER I might find out what 38005 was.
NONE of the above are listed in 1955, so I assume they were disposed of
soon after the delivery of the 650 100 ton flats -- along with a whole
bunch of miscellaneous flats of various lengths, from 31164 to 35558.

Tim O'





I have a question about those USAX (later DODX) flats -- The 1955 ORER
lists them as 38016-38665 and shows 550 cars -- a fully loaded series

But: I have a scan of a photo of USAX 38005 -- which appears to be exactly
the same car -- Yet there is no listing for 38005 or other numbers before
the 38016 series in the ORER. The scan appears to be from a book or magazine
and is supposedly from 1949.

According to my notes 38016-38655 were built by MAGOR in 1953.

Tim O'Connor
riverman_vt@...
 

     The photos you posted are very helpful, Bob, but create a question 
regarding #DODX 38200. This car appears to have had either a raised
of reinforced deck added for some special purpose. Does anyone 
know what this is all about?

Cordially, Don Valentine
Charles Peck
 

Just going on memory 50+ years old here but I think there were similar cars
in Europe with the Seventh Army.  Some units sent armor to the training areas
by rail. 
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 4:51 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Tim,

Ah, a mystery! A military secret, perhaps? :~) . My 1958 ORER lists  38016-38665 with 640 cars. Perhaps your lower-numbered cars were added to the 38016 group at some point? Maybe the earlier group went overseas, say during the Korean War, and were not returned to CONUS. They might also have been disposed of as surplus, or reassigned to on-base use and no longer in interchange. Lots of possibilities here.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/1/15 7:57 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
 


I have a question about those USAX (later DODX) flats -- The 1955 ORER
lists them as 38016-38665 and shows 550 cars -- a fully loaded series

But: I have a scan of a photo of USAX 38005 -- which appears to be exactly
the same car -- Yet there is no listing for 38005 or other numbers before
the 38016 series in the ORER. The scan appears to be from a book or magazine
and is supposedly from 1949.

According to my notes 38016-38655 were built by MAGOR in 1953.

Tim O'Connor




The side sill profile looks more like some DODX flat cars in their 38000 series, but the Pemco model lacks the three axle heavy duty trucks. I believe AHM once made a model this prototype with more correct trucks

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3285149 (DODX 38063)
Riverboy
 

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this the same flat car as Tyco put out? It looks about identical. Or is one a "copy cat" of the other? Either way, I've always liked the die work on both.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)



On Thursday, July 2, 2015 7:19 AM, "Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Just going on memory 50+ years old here but I think there were similar cars
in Europe with the Seventh Army.  Some units sent armor to the training areas
by rail. 
Chuck Peck

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 4:51 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
Tim,

Ah, a mystery! A military secret, perhaps? :~) . My 1958 ORER lists  38016-38665 with 640 cars. Perhaps your lower-numbered cars were added to the 38016 group at some point? Maybe the earlier group went overseas, say during the Korean War, and were not returned to CONUS. They might also have been disposed of as surplus, or reassigned to on-base use and no longer in interchange. Lots of possibilities here.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/1/15 7:57 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

I have a question about those USAX (later DODX) flats -- The 1955 ORER
lists them as 38016-38665 and shows 550 cars -- a fully loaded series

But: I have a scan of a photo of USAX 38005 -- which appears to be exactly
the same car -- Yet there is no listing for 38005 or other numbers before
the 38016 series in the ORER. The scan appears to be from a book or magazine
and is supposedly from 1949.

According to my notes 38016-38655 were built by MAGOR in 1953.

Tim O'Connor




The side sill profile looks more like some DODX flat cars in their 38000 series, but the Pemco model lacks the three axle heavy duty trucks. I believe AHM once made a model this prototype with more correct trucks

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3285149 (DODX 38063)
rwitt_2000
 

Don,

I have no clue. I thought it was a load, but upon a second look it could be a deck to hold some specialized containers.

We need some input from those how know more about the things the military [DOD] transported.

Bob Witt
D. Scott Chatfield
 

Thanks guys. It hadn't occured to me to look at heavy duty flats. The USAX/DOD 38016-series is definitely the prototype for the car. Pemco molded the bolster outward where it would be on a normal 4-axle flat.

The body, sans deck, has been serving as my shallow water dish on my decal bench. I bought it years ago at the Naperville RPM meet. It reminded me of some MILW flats. Those turn out to have more stake pockets. It can also be used as a stand-in for some Cotton Belt flats. I'll have to look for some Athearn Buckeye trucks. The original Pemco deck is too thick and has a couple large holes in it for mounting the loads they included with the car. I'll make a new deck. If one was going to permanently attach some army tanks to the car they'd probably cover the holes.

Otherwise the detail of the body is pretty good except the stake pockets are not deep enough. The body is the correct length of 54'0", per the ORER.

Scott Chatfield
Benjamin Hom
 

Tod C. Dwyer asked:"Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this the same flat car as Tyco put out? It looks about identical. Or is one a "copy cat" of the other? Either way, I've always liked the die work on both."

Close, but not the same.  See the attached comparison (also uploaded to the group Files section).

Ben Hom
Riverboy
 

Thanks Ben.

I didn't realize the differing number of stake pockets. They are actually both really nice starting points for a decent model. I like the fine rivet detail on them. Other than the molded on steps, there really isn't anything "chunky" on either one.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)



On Saturday, July 4, 2015 7:14 AM, "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 


Tod C. Dwyer asked:"Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this the same flat car as Tyco put out? It looks about identical. Or is one a "copy cat" of the other? Either way, I've always liked the die work on both."

Close, but not the same.  See the attached comparison (also uploaded to the group Files section).

Ben Hom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Richard Townsend
 

Assuming the Pemco car is the same as the Roco/AHM car (and I almost certain they are the car), there is another difference as well. The former is a scale 54' long while the Tyco car is just shy of 50'. Close examination of the cars shows a lot of commonalities, so it appears one was derived from the other, but I have no idea which came first (though I suspect the Roco car was the original).
 
It would be nice to find a prototype for the Tyco car as I have several of them in a box somewhere.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2015 4:14 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: prototype for Pemco 53-foot flatcar?

 


Tod C. Dwyer asked:"Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this the same flat car as Tyco put out? It looks about identical. Or is one a "copy cat" of the other? Either way, I've always liked the die work on both."

Close, but not the same.  See the attached comparison (also uploaded to the group Files section).

Ben Hom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Benjamin Hom
 

Richard Townshend wrote:
"Assuming the Pemco car is the same as the Roco/AHM car (and I almost certain they are the car), there is another difference as well. The former is a scale 54' long while the Tyco car is just shy of 50'. Close examination of the cars shows a lot of commonalities, so it appears one was derived from the other, but I have no idea which came first (though I suspect the Roco car was the original)."
As you pointed out, different lengths, so not the same car even though the Pemco model may be derived from the AHM/RoCo model.  See the attached side-by-side (also uploaded to the files section).

"It would be nice to find a prototype for the Tyco car as I have several of them in a box somewhere."
While this prototype is available from SPH&TS/Intermountain, Bruce Petty uses the Tyco cars as an inexpensive stand-in for SP Class F-70-7:http://www.lariverrailroads.com/flatcar.html

Ben Hom
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tony Thompson
 

Ben Hom wrote:

"It would be nice to find a prototype for the Tyco car as I have several of them in a box somewhere."
While this prototype is available from SPH&TS/Intermountain, Bruce Petty uses the Tyco cars as an inexpensive stand-in for SP Class F-70-7:http://www.lariverrailroads.com/flatcar.html


    But keep in mind that the very accurate Red Caboose flat car is a GOOD model of that SP car class. The RC dies are now owned by, and used for production by, the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
"While this prototype is available from SPH&TS/Intermountain, Bruce Petty uses the Tyco cars as an inexpensive stand-in for SP Class F-70-7:
http://www.lariverrailroads.com/flatcar.html

Tony Thompson replied:
"But keep in mind that the very accurate Red Caboose flat car is a GOOD model of that SP car class. The RC dies are now owned by, and used for production by, the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society."

Very true, but Bruce makes a very valid financial point.  Not all of us can afford to drop $1.2K on a train of models, no matter how nice they are.  I can't fault his decision, and each one of us has to balance what we want and what we can afford.


Ben Hom
Tim O'Connor
 

Which seems quite pointless now since there is an F-70-7 model and it's the
correct length of 53'6" ... By the way there's also an F-70-10 model (another
SP flat, but with a welded body) plus bulkhead and TOFC kits for both.

I checked my photos but I can't find any flat car with a 50'0" deck and 13 stake
pockets other than the PRR F30 which no one would mistake for the Tyco model. My
photos of fishbelly 50' flats show cars with 14, 15, or 16 pockets.

Tim O'Connor

"It would be nice to find a prototype for the Tyco car as I have several of them in a box somewhere."
While this prototype is available from SPH&TS/Intermountain, Bruce Petty uses the Tyco cars as an inexpensive stand-in for SP Class F-70-7:http://www.lariverrailroads.com/flatcar.html

Ben Hom

1 - 20 of 22