Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly frame?


gary laakso
 

The picture was posted on the B&O list for the N-13 hoppers and there is this good view of the L&N gon:
 
 
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock


 

Probably has under body dumping doors; there seems to be some mechanisms on
the sides of the fish belly


Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List
<STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 2:38 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly
frame?







The picture was posted on the B&O list for the N-13 hoppers and there is
this good view of the L&N gon:

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/usste
el/CRA-42-110-013


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock


Eric Hansmann
 

Here's a great side view of that L&N coal gondola with the fishbelly side
sills. If you click on the image there, you can review a slightly larger
size.
http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/usste
el/CRA-42-110-014

The L&N car seems to be equipped with what has been termed, clamshell
unloading doors. This hardware was pretty popular on coal hoppers and
gondolas in the first few decades of the 20th century. Thousands of cars
used these clamshell doors. Probably one of the most well known applications
was used on the Pennsylvania Railroad H21 class hoppers. The first H21
hoppers were installed in 1909 and over 30,000 of these were in service
before 1920. John Teichmoeller's book, PRR Steel Open Hopper Cars, offers a
good introduction to the car class. Most of these were converted to the more
familiar sawtooth hopper configuration and reclassed. Here's a builder
image.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_413787_H21_E6819
_032725.jpg&fr=clH21

A few thousand B&O W-1 class hoppers followed a very similar design and also
used clamshell door hoppers. The Erie had a similar hopper design.

Several thousand PRR GSd gondolas also used similar clamshell unloading
doors. These looked very similar to the GS class, but the angles of the
clamshell doors can sometimes be seen below the side sill. The GSd class is
noted in Al Buchan and Eldon Gatwood fine book, PRR Gondolas, Revenue & Work
Equipment 1869-1968, as having sloped drop bottom doors. A very good side
view of a GSd can be seen at the bottom of page 44 of that book. Here's a GS
gondola so you can see the basic car design.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_302520_GS.jpg&fr
=clGS

A per Buchan and Gatwood, 22,516 GSd gondolas were built starting in 1905.
The PRR rebuilt the GSd cars by removing the sloped drop bottom floors and
clamshell doors. These modifications stretched from 1929-1945.

Another common car design that used clamshell unloading doors were the wide
variety of Seley design hoppers and gondolas. Some may argue these were not
a true clamshell design, but it follows a similar design and may predate
what the PRR installed in their hoppers and gondolas. Here's one of
thousands of N&W coal hoppers that used these type of unloading doors.
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1827.jpeg

Some of the New York Central Lines also used clamshell unloading doors.
Here's a Lot 205-G steel gondola that was built in 1907.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nychr-34407.jpg

There were 3500 Lot 205-G gondolas built in 1907 for four NYC Lines and 3000
similar steel gondolas with clamshell unloading doors built in 1907 as Lot
204-G. A couple thousand similar steel gondolas were built for the P&LE and
PMcK&Y in the 1903-05 span.


These examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Karig's Coal Cars book is
another solid reference point for more images of cars with clamshell
unloading doors.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 2:43 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly
frame?

Probably has under body dumping doors; there seems to be some mechanisms on
the sides of the fish belly


Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List
<STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 2:38 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly
frame?







The picture was posted on the B&O list for the N-13 hoppers and there is
this good view of the L&N gon:

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/usste
el/CRA-42-110-013


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock












------------------------------------
Posted by: BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@gmail.com>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <eric@...> wrote :

Here's a great side view of that L&N coal gondola with the fishbelly side
sills. If you click on the image there, you can review a slightly larger
size.
http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-014
==============

The side sills also formed part of the hopper sides. If you look at the above referenced photo, you'll see two rows of rivets at a shallow angle between the doors which define the slopes sheets between the doors. These cars are part way between the flat floor gondola with a couple doors in the floor that the coal could be shoveled through; these had bigger outlets and sloped floors (I wonder if the slope sheets extend above the trucks?) but still weren't "self clearing" like the later cars. Someone still had to go inside with a shovel to push the coal to the outlets.

Dennis Storzek


Eric Hansmann
 

Dennis brings up a very good point. In many cases of gondolas with clamshell unloading doors, not all of the load was cleared. A decent amount of material still needed to be shoveled into the open area on the car floor to be unloaded. Labor was pretty cheap but as those costs rose, the self-clearing cars became more popular.

 

I can zoom in 250% on these images and see details decently. I don’t see anything above the trucks that would suggest a slope sheet. Note the rivet pattern at the center of the center sill outlines possible center slope sheets between the hoppers.

 

Are those poling pockets on the end of the car bolsters?

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 4:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly frame?

 


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Here's a great side view of that L&N coal gondola with the fishbelly side
sills. If you click on the image there, you can review a slightly larger
size.
http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-014

 

==============

The side sills also formed part of the hopper sides. If you look at the above referenced photo, you'll see two rows of rivets at a shallow angle between the doors which define the slopes sheets between the doors. These cars are part way between the flat floor gondola with a couple doors in the floor that the coal could be shoveled through; these had bigger outlets and sloped floors (I wonder if the slope sheets extend above the trucks?) but still weren't "self clearing" like the later cars. Someone still had to go inside with a shovel to push the coal to the outlets.

Dennis Storzek


Charles Peck
 

On the L&N gon, I find the pole or pipe sticking up out of the load to be interesting. 
Debris from the loading tipple, perhaps? And the load seems to be mine run coal. Lots of fines
mixed with some lumps. 
Chuck Peck in FL

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 6:54 PM, 'Eric Hansmann' eric@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Dennis brings up a very good point. In many cases of gondolas with clamshell unloading doors, not all of the load was cleared. A decent amount of material still needed to be shoveled into the open area on the car floor to be unloaded. Labor was pretty cheap but as those costs rose, the self-clearing cars became more popular.

 

I can zoom in 250% on these images and see details decently. I don’t see anything above the trucks that would suggest a slope sheet. Note the rivet pattern at the center of the center sill outlines possible center slope sheets between the hoppers.

 

Are those poling pockets on the end of the car bolsters?

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 4:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly frame?

 


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Here's a great side view of that L&N coal gondola with the fishbelly side
sills. If you click on the image there, you can review a slightly larger
size.
http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-014

 

==============

The side sills also formed part of the hopper sides. If you look at the above referenced photo, you'll see two rows of rivets at a shallow angle between the doors which define the slopes sheets between the doors. These cars are part way between the flat floor gondola with a couple doors in the floor that the coal could be shoveled through; these had bigger outlets and sloped floors (I wonder if the slope sheets extend above the trucks?) but still weren't "self clearing" like the later cars. Someone still had to go inside with a shovel to push the coal to the outlets.

Dennis Storzek



Eric Hansmann
 

The pole or stick is an interesting question. One wonders if these images document an accident scene. Maybe the pole is where someone was standing. 

Here's a different view with Erie hoppers in the background. They are also equipped with side discharge doors. 


Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

On Jul 1, 2015, at 6:12 PM, Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

On the L&N gon, I find the pole or pipe sticking up out of the load to be interesting. 
Debris from the loading tipple, perhaps? And the load seems to be mine run coal. Lots of fines
mixed with some lumps. 
Chuck Peck in FL

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 6:54 PM, 'Eric Hansmann' eric@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Dennis brings up a very good point. In many cases of gondolas with clamshell unloading doors, not all of the load was cleared. A decent amount of material still needed to be shoveled into the open area on the car floor to be unloaded. Labor was pretty cheap but as those costs rose, the self-clearing cars became more popular.

 

I can zoom in 250% on these images and see details decently. I don’t see anything above the trucks that would suggest a slope sheet. Note the rivet pattern at the center of the center sill outlines possible center slope sheets between the hoppers.

 

Are those poling pockets on the end of the car bolsters?

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 4:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly frame?

 


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Here's a great side view of that L&N coal gondola with the fishbelly side
sills. If you click on the image there, you can review a slightly larger
size.
http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-014

 

==============

The side sills also formed part of the hopper sides. If you look at the above referenced photo, you'll see two rows of rivets at a shallow angle between the doors which define the slopes sheets between the doors. These cars are part way between the flat floor gondola with a couple doors in the floor that the coal could be shoveled through; these had bigger outlets and sloped floors (I wonder if the slope sheets extend above the trucks?) but still weren't "self clearing" like the later cars. Someone still had to go inside with a shovel to push the coal to the outlets.

Dennis Storzek



George Courtney
 

I haven't a clue about the pole. But someone checking it was coal all the way down?  Or coal of the ordered quality?  Just a guess.

George Courtney


ajb1102@...
 

"The pole or stick is an interesting question. One wonders if these images document an accident scene. Maybe the pole is where someone was standing. "
**
Apparently they made a big deal about this car being the first load with a number of photos. 

 So I am thinking " Hey photographer - This is the one"

Andy Brusgard
www.ModelEngineers.org


Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <ajb1102@...> wrote :

"The pole or stick is an interesting question. One wonders if these images document an accident scene. Maybe the pole is where someone was standing. "
**
Apparently they made a big deal about this car being the first load with a number of photos. 

 So I am thinking " Hey photographer - This is the one"
=============

Pretty hard to drive a pole of that size into a compacted load of coal. I'd bet it was placed while loading; may have carried a flag (similar to a "topping out" ceremony with a flag attached to the last piece of steel) or a banner. By the time the car arrived at the other end of its journy where these photos were taken, whatever was attached to the pole was long gone.

Dennis Srorzek


Eric Hansmann
 

There are four images of this L&N gondola and they all have the same caption.

Coke Plant. 1st Car of Coal from Corp.'s New Mine in Kentucky, Ground Level

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/ussteel/results/item.do?itemId=/nw/cra/ussteel/CRA-42-110-015

 

It seems odd to me that there is only one car featured. Coal from a mine to a large facility like the USS Gary Works was not transported in one or two cars. Coal would arrive from a mine as a string of several cars or as an entire train. This is also the only L&N car to be seen. There are B&O, EJ&E, and Erie hoppers in the background of the images documenting the L&N gondola. There is no banner to announce the new shipment, unless the pole was part of this. There are no officials on hand for huzzahs and handshakes to document this great industrial moment.

 

The image of this L&N coal gondola reminds me of many images in the Erie-Lackawanna Photo Archive. Many of those photos were taken to document an accident scene and there are usually photos from a few angles.

 

Either way, we have a window into the past to view an interesting freight car in service and catch glimpses of other neat freight cars in the background. As a 1926 railroad modeler, I have far fewer opportunities like this than a post-WW2 modeler.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/

 

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 6:00 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why did this L&N car that it needed a huge fishbelly frame?

 



"The pole or stick is an interesting question. One wonders if these images document an accident scene. Maybe the pole is where someone was standing. "

**

Apparently they made a big deal about this car being the first load with a number of photos. 

 

 So I am thinking " Hey photographer - This is the one"

 

Andy Brusgard

www.ModelEngineers.org




rwitt_2000
 

FWIW in the book "History of the Louisville & Nashville Railroad" by Maury Klein on page 405, he writes that the a subsidiary of US Steel [not named] opened its new mine in eastern Kentucky in September 1917 and shipped its first car of coal two months later. That date of November 1917 corresponds with the caption in the photo. The locations for the railroad were Benham and Lynch, Kentucky with the coal fields at the headwaters of Looney Creek.

Bob Witt