universal gasoline


ed_mines
 

I've heard the same thing that modern day brands of gasoline differ only by a handful of additives but years ago at least one of the national brands advertised that travelers could find their gasoline in every state.


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them) but cause problems with drivers from other parts of the country.


Ed Mines 


Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


mwbauers
 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.

I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?


Gary Ray
 

I was told that all the gasoline that comes into the tank farm (by pipe) in Chico, CA is the same at any given time period and that additives are added as the fuel is loaded into the delivery truck.  Don’t know about earlier times.

Gary Ray

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 12:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] universal gasoline

 




On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?


-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS





Charles Peck
 

So, other than when the U-boats were prowling the coast, how common was shipment of gasoline by rail?
I doubt not that it happened, but how commonly? And was that just to certain locales that were not served
by barge or pipeline? How about pre-jet avgas?  Special octane rating?  Perhaps a specialty product 
shipped in carload quantities?  
Chuck Peck in Florida

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.


I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?



Schuyler Larrabee
 

Mike, you’re correct that engines need adjustment for altitude.  Longer ago than I care to think about, I had a 1972 Datsun 240Z, which I bought in upstate NY.  I drove that to Colorado, and lived in Steamboat Springs for about a year.  The comparative lack of air pressure seriously affected the, uh, “spirit” of the car.  Adjustments of the twin SU carbs took care of that.  Later, that car was stolen, and I never got it back.  I wish I still had it.

 

While in Steamboat, on the Craig branch of the Rio Grande, I saw many steam era freight cars well within the time bounds of this list.

 

Schuyler

 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.

 

I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

 

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    
All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?


Charles Peck
 

Schuyler, In as much as none of us, even possible law enforcement folks, actually "witnessed"  the 
"spirit" to which you allude while trying to get ahead of those low-drivered 2-8-2s hauling, as you say,
steam-era freight cars,  I don't think you need at this late date to be quite so circumspect about that
alleged "spirit".  Unless that "spirit"  included home-made ethanol which should have been in the proper
class of tank car and properly placarded as such. 
Chuck Peck in Florida 

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 9:57 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Mike, you’re correct that engines need adjustment for altitude.  Longer ago than I care to think about, I had a 1972 Datsun 240Z, which I bought in upstate NY.  I drove that to Colorado, and lived in Steamboat Springs for about a year.  The comparative lack of air pressure seriously affected the, uh, “spirit” of the car.  Adjustments of the twin SU carbs took care of that.  Later, that car was stolen, and I never got it back.  I wish I still had it.

 

While in Steamboat, on the Craig branch of the Rio Grande, I saw many steam era freight cars well within the time bounds of this list.

 

Schuyler

 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.

 

I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

 

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

 

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

 

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    
All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?



Douglas Harding
 

Chuck, in the group files is a spreadsheet titled “M&StL Station Books” which contains listings for every freight car in and out of two small towns in Iowa, in the late 40’s and mid 50’s. If you do a search for gasoline or tank cars you will find a quite a few deliveries of gasoline to local oil jobbers.

 

The major pipelines from Midwest oil fields to east coast locals were constructed during WWII, prior to that I think most gasoline moved by tank car. And the above records show that gasoline was moved by tank car after the war, esp in areas not served by pipelines. Granted trucks took over transport of gasoline, but rails dominated until the 50’s or later.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Bruce Smith
 

Charles,

You've got it backwards.  Prior to and after WWII, post-refining cargo on relatively short hauls was the primary cargo of tank cars.  During WWII, the coastal CRUDE traffic was interrrupted, so until the major pipelines were built, the major cargo of the "pipeline on rails" was crude being hauled to northeastern refineries.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] universal gasoline



So, other than when the U-boats were prowling the coast, how common was shipment of gasoline by rail?
I doubt not that it happened, but how commonly? And was that just to certain locales that were not served
by barge or pipeline? How about pre-jet avgas?  Special octane rating?  Perhaps a specialty product 
shipped in carload quantities?  
Chuck Peck in Florida

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.


I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:


Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)


    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?





John Barry
 

Hi octane AVGAS was shipped extensively by rail.  Relatively few refineries produced this specialty fuel and it was needed darn near everywhere until jets supplanted recips in the 60's.


John Barry 

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736


From: "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] universal gasoline

 
Charles,

You've got it backwards.  Prior to and after WWII, post-refining cargo on relatively short hauls was the primary cargo of tank cars.  During WWII, the coastal CRUDE traffic was interrrupted, so until the major pipelines were built, the major cargo of the "pipeline on rails" was crude being hauled to northeastern refineries.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] universal gasoline



So, other than when the U-boats were prowling the coast, how common was shipment of gasoline by rail?
I doubt not that it happened, but how commonly? And was that just to certain locales that were not served
by barge or pipeline? How about pre-jet avgas?  Special octane rating?  Perhaps a specialty product 
shipped in carload quantities?  
Chuck Peck in Florida

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
I think we are confusing the adjustment of engines for altitude with brand adjusting.

I know you have to adjust high altitude engines to run differently than one at sea-level.

I’m not sure about brand adjusting, but altitude adjustment is almost universally required for a car that is not computer-adjusted.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jul 11, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


On 7/11/2015 12:05 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:

Local gasolines might work well for local customers (engines were adjusted to run on them)

    All current gas is blended different, CA alone has somewhere around 16 different blends.  How does this compare to say 1940?  Just one blend plus some additives in that time period.  Did we determine if they were at the tank car level or at the delivery truck level or was most all the advertizing just BS?






devansprr
 

Charles, Bruce,

Shipment of finished product in tank cars prior to WWII looks to be common.

Ed Workman has provided some great ODT (office of defense transportation) info on the various rules controlling tank cars during the war. On June 1, 1942, ODT put into effect a rule requiring "special permits" for any tank car haul under 100 miles. The short hauls were shifted to trucks, even though trucks were running up against tire shortages. A memo in September of 1942 states that the switch to trucks for these short hauls freed up 8,000 tank cars for long-haul service (mostly crude.) On October 10, 1942 they increased the minimum haul, without a special permit, to 200 miles.

It is also important to note that only cars below 7,000 gallons could be used on the short hauls - it appears many short hauls were not full car loads, and ODT wanted all of the bigger tank cars used on the long crude hauls. (The ODT reg implies that tank cars of less than 7,000 gallons were NOT to be used for petroleum hauls into east coast states - they only wanted the larger cars to maximize gallons per train, and possibly to free up the smaller cars for shorter hauls.)

And if a shipper moved a tank car suitable for crude on a trip of less than 200 miles without a special permit, railroads were to pick up the car when empty, and put it into the long-haul fleet. Too bad...

Not sure what that means post war, but the documents make a pretty strong case that as of May 1942, a lot of product was being shipped by rail on hauls of less than 100 miles. And in some instances much shorter.

Also, Sun Oils in Marcus Hook, PA was the first producer of 100 octane AvGas (the process was a WWII military secret for some period of time), and I would think it must have been shipped to various air bases in the US - by rail, and some of it west bound.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <smithbf@...> wrote :

Charles,

You've got it backwards.  Prior to and after WWII, post-refining cargo on relatively short hauls was the primary cargo of tank cars.  During WWII, the coastal CRUDE traffic was interrrupted, so until the major pipelines were built, the major cargo of the "pipeline on rails" was crude being hauled to northeastern refineries.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] universal gasoline



So, other than when the U-boats were prowling the coast, how common was shipment of gasoline by rail?
I doubt not that it happened, but how commonly? And was that just to certain locales that were not served
by barge or pipeline? How about pre-jet avgas?  Special octane rating?  Perhaps a specialty product 
shipped in carload quantities?  
Chuck Peck in Florida





Chuck Soule
 

Regarding "pipelines on rails" during WW2, the Northern Pacific ran a weekly unit train of aviation gasoline to Seattle.  I believe the loaded train going to the Pacific Theater was called the "G Manifest" and I know the train of empties being returned was the "R Manifest."

I understand the point of origin was in Oklahoma, and the train came onto the NP from the CB&Q at Billings, MT.  It was routed over Stampede Pass to Auburn, then to Seattle, where it was unloaded in the tank farms at the north end of Elliot Bay to be loaded onto ships at Pier 90-92.  This included passing through downtown Seattle on either Railroad Avenue (Alaskan Way) or through the Fourth Street Tunnel right under downtown.  Seattleites whine today about Bakken crude taking the tunnel beneath downtown, but the WW2 av-gas was even more volatile, and it was pulled by steam engines with an instant combustion source available in case of derailment.

I am aware of one Jim Fredrickson photo of the "R Manifest" eastbound through Easton, WA in 1944, being pulled by the brand new FTs.  Unfortunately, the picture is framed so that it is not possible to discern too much about the tank cars.

Chuck Soule