fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)


Armand Premo
 

    I don't believe the study included Canadian cars which would really impact especially northern tier road consists.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

 


 > I must agree with Dan Holbrook’s comment about people using percentages
 > of car types for anything.
 > Ike

Ike

I don't think that's exactly what Dan meant. Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert
spent quite a lot of time on BOX CAR distribution research and found that
on almost all class 1 railroads in the STMFC era, the percentages followed
the ORER fleet sizes pretty closely -- excepting home road cars, which are
almost always a higher percentage than their share of the national fleet.
XM box cars in the STMFC era, in other words, were "free roaming" and went
just about anywhere and everywhere.

For other car types, it's a much different story. We've been over this ground
many times. I've got over 100 saved emails from Tim Gilbert on this subject
alone.

Tim O'Connor

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4821 / Virus Database: 4365/10299 - Release Date: 07/24/15


Bruce Smith
 

Armand,

Canadian cars were specifically excluded from the analysis because they are NOT free rollers.  Because of customs rules, they have to be specifically carrying cargo to the US.  Once here, they had to be routed back to Canada.  Canadian cars did certainly occasionally get grabbed for moves inside the USA, but it was pretty rare.  Canadian boxcars could certainly be seen anywhere in the USA, but there had better be a good reason. 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)



    I don't believe the study included Canadian cars which would really impact especially northern tier road consists.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

 


 > I must agree with Dan Holbrook’s comment about people using percentages
 > of car types for anything.
 > Ike

Ike

I don't think that's exactly what Dan meant. Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert
spent quite a lot of time on BOX CAR distribution research and found that
on almost all class 1 railroads in the STMFC era, the percentages followed
the ORER fleet sizes pretty closely -- excepting home road cars, which are
almost always a higher percentage than their share of the national fleet.
XM box cars in the STMFC era, in other words, were "free roaming" and went
just about anywhere and everywhere.

For other car types, it's a much different story. We've been over this ground
many times. I've got over 100 saved emails from Tim Gilbert on this subject
alone.

Tim O'Connor

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4821 / Virus Database: 4365/10299 - Release Date: 07/24/15




Pierre Oliver
 

Bruce,
In the post war era, the US roads were notorious for being tardy in returning Canadian cars. Usually because they were in better shape. There's lots of letters in the archives of CN and CP pleading for their cars back

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Armand Premo
 

Bruce,The data I have for roads in Northern New England have more CN cars in consists than Pennsy cars.Armand Premo 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

 

Armand,

Canadian cars were specifically excluded from the analysis because they are NOT free rollers.  Because of customs rules, they have to be specifically carrying cargo to the US.  Once here, they had to be routed back to Canada.  Canadian cars did certainly occasionally get grabbed for moves inside the USA, but it was pretty rare.  Canadian boxcars could certainly be seen anywhere in the USA, but there had better be a good reason. 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)



    I don't believe the study included Canadian cars which would really impact especially northern tier road consists.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

 


 > I must agree with Dan Holbrook’s comment about people using percentages
 > of car types for anything.
 > Ike

Ike

I don't think that's exactly what Dan meant. Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert
spent quite a lot of time on BOX CAR distribution research and found that
on almost all class 1 railroads in the STMFC era, the percentages followed
the ORER fleet sizes pretty closely -- excepting home road cars, which are
almost always a higher percentage than their share of the national fleet.
XM box cars in the STMFC era, in other words, were "free roaming" and went
just about anywhere and everywhere.

For other car types, it's a much different story. We've been over this ground
many times. I've got over 100 saved emails from Tim Gilbert on this subject
alone.

Tim O'Connor

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4821 / Virus Database: 4365/10299 - Release Date: 07/24/15



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4821 / Virus Database: 4365/10305 - Release Date: 07/25/15


Tim O'Connor
 


Armand

Not surprising since both CN and CP operated in Vermont, and CP operated in New Hampshire and Maine, while
CN subsidiaries CV and GT operated as far as the coasts of Connecticut and Maine. Also large amounts of newsprint
came from Quebec and Ontario to newspapers throughout the region, not to mention Canadian lumber products.

Tim O'Connor


 >
Bruce,The data I have for roads in Northern New England have more CN cars in consists than Pennsy cars.Armand Premo


riverman_vt@...
 

    But which roads in Northern New England, Armand? This could certainly be said for the 
Central Vermont, and there is ample photographic evidence to that effect, but being a CNR
subsidiary how could one expect it to be otherwise? The same could be stated about the
Grand Trunk. I do not believe you could make that statement about the Rutland though it
did carry a few CNR cars, and your statement could not be made about the joint CPR-B&M
line extending south from Newport, VT nor the MEC as its primary Canadian connections 
were all with the CPR. These were in St. Johnsbury, VT,  Mattawumkeag and Vanceboro, 
ME. The MEC connection, indeed trackage rights, over the Grand Trunk from Groveton to
North Stratford, NH rarely provided any interchange with CNR subsidiary Grand Trunk and 
the same must be said about the B&M connection with the Grand Trunk at Groveton, NH.
Thus it would seem that your statement defines interchange traffic between the CNR and 
CV but is limited to that one instance. Is this not correct?

Cordially. Don Valentine




Benjamin Hom
 



Don Valentine wrote:
"But which roads in Northern New England, Armand? This could certainly be said for the 
Central Vermont, and there is ample photographic evidence to that effect, but being a CNR
subsidiary how could one expect it to be otherwise? The same could be stated about the
Grand Trunk. I do not believe you could make that statement about the Rutland though it
did carry a few CNR cars, and your statement could not be made about the joint CPR-B&M
line extending south from Newport, VT nor the MEC as its primary Canadian connections 
were all with the CPR. These were in St. Johnsbury, VT,  Mattawumkeag and Vanceboro, 
ME. The MEC connection, indeed trackage rights, over the Grand Trunk from Groveton to
North Stratford, NH rarely provided any interchange with CNR subsidiary Grand Trunk and 
the same must be said about the B&M connection with the Grand Trunk at Groveton, NH.
Thus it would seem that your statement defines interchange traffic between the CNR and 
CV but is limited to that one instance. Is this not correct?"

No.  The numbers support Armand in this instance.  Of 3167 boxcar entries from the shifting lists in Armand's collection that I've been able to transcribe and analyze, these are the top 10 roads:

NYC  365
CN   359
PRR  204
CP   124
ATSF 122
B&O   99
MILW  93
SOU   86
NP    79
CNW   74

The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 10 dated 1948-1950.


Ben Hom


riverman_vt@...
 

   Not so fast please, Ben, as you seem to have proven my point.
You state that "The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 
10 dated 1948-1950", which indicates that only two trains from one
road in Northern New England were used to make the determination.
While which road is not stated it is still only ONE road and two trains
where there were many crossing points and several roads that used 
them in the region. If we had switch lists from several roads within 
the region and time frame that would be one thing but with most 
appearing to be as I've described I'm miles from being convinced.
If I've missed some part of this before Armand's post that I replied
to please fill me in but as things stand at present I see no logic to
what you suggest.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Dave Parker
 

Don:

I am not sure I am completely following you concerning interchange traffic of Canadian cars, at least on the B&M.  These are the most meager crumbs of data, but Earl Tuson has posted two wheel reports on his site.  FWIW, with respect to box cars:

1.  1927 freight from Mystic Jct to White River Junction, with picks/drops in Nashua and Concord:  66 cars, 18 home (B&M/MTC), 9 CP, 4 CN, and 2 GT.  Interestingly, only 1 NYC, and zero PRR.

2.  1936 freight (ML-2) from Mechanicville to Lawrence, with picks/drops in E Deerfield, E Fitchburg, and Lowell:  100 cars, 31 home, 5 CN, and 4 CP.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are more NYC and PRR cars here (7 each).

IIRC, Earl has a much larger log from 1929-30, but I don't know if it has been transcribed yet.  These are the only conductor's books for the B&M of which I am aware, so we don't have much to go on.  But it's better than photographic evidence, for which I have never seen anything of substance, at least pre-WWII.  If you know of any other logbooks, I would be glad to learn of them.

With best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




Armand Premo
 


    Let us also not forget that the D&H,NYC,TH&B,GTW,SOO,DW&P among others having direct Canadian connections,  bringing traffic to the states.FWIW.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)

 

Don:

I am not sure I am completely following you concerning interchange traffic of Canadian cars, at least on the B&M.  These are the most meager crumbs of data, but Earl Tuson has posted two wheel reports on his site.  FWIW, with respect to box cars:

1.  1927 freight from Mystic Jct to White River Junction, with picks/drops in Nashua and Concord:  66 cars, 18 home (B&M/MTC), 9 CP, 4 CN, and 2 GT.  Interestingly, only 1 NYC, and zero PRR.

2.  1936 freight (ML-2) from Mechanicville to Lawrence, with picks/drops in E Deerfield, E Fitchburg, and Lowell:  100 cars, 31 home, 5 CN, and 4 CP.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are more NYC and PRR cars here (7 each).

IIRC, Earl has a much larger log from 1929-30, but I don't know if it has been transcribed yet.  These are the only conductor's books for the B&M of which I am aware, so we don't have much to go on.  But it's better than photographic evidence, for which I have never seen anything of substance, at least pre-WWII.  If you know of any other logbooks, I would be glad to learn of them.

With best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4821 / Virus Database: 4365/10313 - Release Date: 07/26/15