fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car)
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Armand Premo
I don't believe the study
included Canadian cars which would really impact especially northern tier
road consists.Armand Premo
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Armand,
Canadian cars were specifically excluded from the analysis because they are NOT free rollers. Because of customs rules, they have to be specifically carrying cargo to the US. Once here, they had to be routed back to Canada. Canadian cars did certainly
occasionally get grabbed for moves inside the USA, but it was pretty rare. Canadian boxcars could certainly be seen anywhere in the USA, but there had better be a good reason.
Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:13 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: fleet composition (was Kadee ACF 11,000 Gallon Insulated Tank Car) I don't believe the study included Canadian cars which would really impact especially northern tier road consists.Armand Premo
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Pierre Oliver
Bruce,
In the post war era, the US roads were notorious for being tardy in returning Canadian cars. Usually because they were in better shape. There's lots of letters in the archives of CN and CP pleading for their cars back Pierre Oliver www.elgincarshops.com www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
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Armand Premo
Bruce,The data I have for roads in Northern New
England have more CN cars in consists than Pennsy cars.Armand
Premo
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Armand Not surprising since both CN and CP operated in Vermont, and CP operated in New Hampshire and Maine, while CN subsidiaries CV and GT operated as far as the coasts of Connecticut and Maine. Also large amounts of newsprint came from Quebec and Ontario to newspapers throughout the region, not to mention Canadian lumber products. Tim O'Connor > Bruce,The data I have for roads in Northern New England have more CN cars in consists than Pennsy cars.Armand Premo
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riverman_vt@...
But which roads in Northern New England, Armand? This could certainly be said for the
Central Vermont, and there is ample photographic evidence to that effect, but being a CNR subsidiary how could one expect it to be otherwise? The same could be stated about the Grand Trunk. I do not believe you could make that statement about the Rutland though it did carry a few CNR cars, and your statement could not be made about the joint CPR-B&M line extending south from Newport, VT nor the MEC as its primary Canadian connections were all with the CPR. These were in St. Johnsbury, VT, Mattawumkeag and Vanceboro, ME. The MEC connection, indeed trackage rights, over the Grand Trunk from Groveton to North Stratford, NH rarely provided any interchange with CNR subsidiary Grand Trunk and the same must be said about the B&M connection with the Grand Trunk at Groveton, NH. Thus it would seem that your statement defines interchange traffic between the CNR and CV but is limited to that one instance. Is this not correct? Cordially. Don Valentine
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Benjamin Hom
Don Valentine wrote: "But which roads in Northern New England, Armand? This could certainly be said for the Central Vermont, and there is ample photographic evidence to that effect, but being a CNR subsidiary how could one expect it to be otherwise? The same could be stated about the Grand Trunk. I do not believe you could make that statement about the Rutland though it did carry a few CNR cars, and your statement could not be made about the joint CPR-B&M line extending south from Newport, VT nor the MEC as its primary Canadian connections were all with the CPR. These were in St. Johnsbury, VT, Mattawumkeag and Vanceboro, ME. The MEC connection, indeed trackage rights, over the Grand Trunk from Groveton to North Stratford, NH rarely provided any interchange with CNR subsidiary Grand Trunk and the same must be said about the B&M connection with the Grand Trunk at Groveton, NH. Thus it would seem that your statement defines interchange traffic between the CNR and CV but is limited to that one instance. Is this not correct?" No. The numbers support Armand in this instance. Of 3167 boxcar entries from the shifting lists in Armand's collection that I've been able to transcribe and analyze, these are the top 10 roads: NYC 365
CN 359 PRR 204 CP 124 ATSF 122 B&O 99 MILW 93 SOU 86 NP 79 CNW 74 The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 10 dated 1948-1950. Ben Hom
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riverman_vt@...
Not so fast please, Ben, as you seem to have proven my point.
You state that "The preponderance of the data is from Trains 9 and 10 dated 1948-1950", which indicates that only two trains from one road in Northern New England were used to make the determination. While which road is not stated it is still only ONE road and two trains where there were many crossing points and several roads that used them in the region. If we had switch lists from several roads within the region and time frame that would be one thing but with most appearing to be as I've described I'm miles from being convinced. If I've missed some part of this before Armand's post that I replied to please fill me in but as things stand at present I see no logic to what you suggest. Cordially, Don Valentine
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Dave Parker
Don: I am not sure I am completely following you concerning interchange traffic of Canadian cars, at least on the B&M. These are the most meager crumbs of data, but Earl Tuson has posted two wheel reports on his site. FWIW, with respect to box cars: 1. 1927 freight from Mystic Jct to White River Junction, with picks/drops in Nashua and Concord: 66 cars, 18 home (B&M/MTC), 9 CP, 4 CN, and 2 GT. Interestingly, only 1 NYC, and zero PRR. 2. 1936 freight (ML-2) from Mechanicville to Lawrence, with picks/drops in E Deerfield, E Fitchburg, and Lowell: 100 cars, 31 home, 5 CN, and 4 CP. Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are more NYC and PRR cars here (7 each). IIRC, Earl has a much larger log from 1929-30, but I don't know if it has been transcribed yet. These are the only conductor's books for the B&M of which I am aware, so we don't have much to go on. But it's better than photographic evidence, for which I have never seen anything of substance, at least pre-WWII. If you know of any other logbooks, I would be glad to learn of them. With best regards, Dave Parker Riverside, CA
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Armand Premo
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Let us also not forget that
the D&H,NYC,TH&B,GTW,SOO,DW&P among others having direct Canadian
connections, bringing traffic to the states.FWIW.Armand Premo
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