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different grades of coal

D. Scott Chatfield
 

http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Scott and friends,

Besides the various grades of coal, there are some interesting details to note here. Some, but not all, of the finer grades of coal were dumped in parts rather than as a continuous flow. This caused the loads to have definite cross-car ridges. Some of the coal is actually sitting on the top edge of the sides and has yet to have fallen off. Finally, notice the footprints on some of the finer loads, probably left by a brakeman.

Most of us who run loaded coal cars use commercial castings that have as much individuality as Vienna sausages and miss these details.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/19/15 1:20 AM, blindog@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield
Eric Hansmann
 

The modeling era will also impact the type of coal loads seen on railroads. In
the future, beyond 1960, power plants preferred the smaller sizes of coal.

On the other end of the STMFC spectrum in the true steam era, run of mine loads
are much more common and smaller Nut size loads are not very common. This is
possibly because fewer coal mines had much screening installed on their load out
tipples, or the screening was just for one size. Tipples eventually became
larger with the addition of more screen sizes. As time progressed, run of mine
coal would be sent to a cleaning plant for more efficient rock removal and to
sort the coal into finer sizes.

I model 1926 and coal loads exhibit noticeable piece size differences compared
to images from the 1950s.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/



On September 19, 2015 at 2:45 AM "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]"
<STMFC@...> wrote:


Scott and friends,

Besides the various grades of coal, there are some interesting details
to note here. Some, but not all, of the finer grades of coal were dumped
in parts rather than as a continuous flow. This caused the loads to have
definite cross-car ridges. Some of the coal is actually sitting on the
top edge of the sides and has yet to have fallen off. Finally, notice
the footprints on some of the finer loads, probably left by a brakeman.

Most of us who run loaded coal cars use commercial castings that have as
much individuality as Vienna sausages and miss these details.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/19/15 1:20 AM, blindog@... [STMFC] wrote:

http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a
yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the
different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an
operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades
of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than
one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in
their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
Schuyler Larrabee
 

I completely agree with this line of thinking, and have objected to some of the others at my RR club who removed the large loads from hoppers because “they’re not realistic.”  I have a question, though.  Are the cars in that photo classified for trains?  If they were not, it would suggest that various grades could be loaded as cars were pulled through the loader.  For that reason, I think that they have been classified and the cuts shown in the photo are destined for departure as trains.

 

Schuyler

 


Subject: Re: [STMFC] different grades of coal

Scott and friends,

Besides the various grades of coal, there are some interesting details to note here. Some, but not all, of the finer grades of coal were dumped in parts rather than as a continuous flow. This caused the loads to have definite cross-car ridges. Some of the coal is actually sitting on the top edge of the sides and has yet to have fallen off. Finally, notice the footprints on some of the finer loads, probably left by a brakeman.

Most of us who run loaded coal cars use commercial castings that have as much individuality as Vienna sausages and miss these details.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/19/15 1:20 AM, blindog@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield

 
Charles Tapper
 

A quick look at "Appalachian Coal Mines and Railroads" shows quite different size loads coupled together at the tipple loading tracks in several pics. Also a  pic of a hopper with large blocks of coal that are being "hand laid" at least on the top in one picture. Pics of sorting tables and loaders et al.

Another picture suggests different tracks for different sizes, but that could be just a publicity shot for that supplier.

Of course practices vary with the quality of the coal, maturity, facilities (truck dump versus tipple), markets etc. Some stuff was simply shipped run-of-mine due to size of the operation.

Charles Tapper
OKC or Broken Arrow




On Sep 19, 2015, at 12:57 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I completely agree with this line of thinking, and have objected to some of the others at my RR club who removed the large loads from hoppers because “they’re not realistic.”  I have a question, though.  Are the cars in that photo classified for trains?  If they were not, it would suggest that various grades could be loaded as cars were pulled through the loader.  For that reason, I think that they have been classified and the cuts shown in the photo are destined for departure as trains.

 

Schuyler

 


Subject: Re: [STMFC] different grades of coal

Scott and friends,

Besides the various grades of coal, there are some interesting details to note here. Some, but not all, of the finer grades of coal were dumped in parts rather than as a continuous flow. This caused the loads to have definite cross-car ridges. Some of the coal is actually sitting on the top edge of the sides and has yet to have fallen off. Finally, notice the footprints on some of the finer loads, probably left by a brakeman.

Most of us who run loaded coal cars use commercial castings that have as much individuality as Vienna sausages and miss these details.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/19/15 1:20 AM, blindog@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield

 
Charles Tapper
 

Looking further at drawings of a tipple in the aforementioned book, It looks like coarser sizes that pass screens would go directly to loading chutes, and various screened sizes being pulled off traversing vibrating screens. Looking more carefully it would seem that one loader would get larger sizes and other loaders finer sizes. There could be washing processes, storage bins, picking tables in the process.

Check your prototype.

Charlie Tapper
OKC


On Sep 20, 2015, at 12:27 AM, Charles Tapper <charlestapper@...> wrote:

A quick look at "Appalachian Coal Mines and Railroads" shows quite different size loads coupled together at the tipple loading tracks in several pics. Also a  pic of a hopper with large blocks of coal that are being "hand laid" at least on the top in one picture. Pics of sorting tables and loaders et al.

Another picture suggests different tracks for different sizes, but that could be just a publicity shot for that supplier.

Of course practices vary with the quality of the coal, maturity, facilities (truck dump versus tipple), markets etc. Some stuff was simply shipped run-of-mine due to size of the operation.

Charles Tapper
OKC or Broken Arrow




On Sep 19, 2015, at 12:57 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I completely agree with this line of thinking, and have objected to some of the others at my RR club who removed the large loads from hoppers because “they’re not realistic.”  I have a question, though.  Are the cars in that photo classified for trains?  If they were not, it would suggest that various grades could be loaded as cars were pulled through the loader.  For that reason, I think that they have been classified and the cuts shown in the photo are destined for departure as trains.

 

Schuyler

 


Subject: Re: [STMFC] different grades of coal

Scott and friends,

Besides the various grades of coal, there are some interesting details to note here. Some, but not all, of the finer grades of coal were dumped in parts rather than as a continuous flow. This caused the loads to have definite cross-car ridges. Some of the coal is actually sitting on the top edge of the sides and has yet to have fallen off. Finally, notice the footprints on some of the finer loads, probably left by a brakeman.

Most of us who run loaded coal cars use commercial castings that have as much individuality as Vienna sausages and miss these details.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/19/15 1:20 AM, blindog@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield

 
Chris Van Wagoner
 

Sizing of coal was critical for the destination and use. Each size had a specific use - from steam coal to fine pea coal for home heating. The size of coal used in locomotive mechanical stokers needed to be smaller than the pieces of coal used for hand firing. As a result, most coal docks had two chutes to each track. Stoker coal was about 1"-2" pieces, while hand fired coal was larger, from about 4" to 6".


Broken (4" x 8")

Stove (2-7/16" x 1 5/8")

Nut (1-5/8 " x 13/16")

Pea (13/16" x 9/16")

Buckwheat (9/16" x 5/16")

Rice (5/16" x 3/16")

Barley (3/16" x 3/32")

Buckwheat #4 (3/32" x 3/64")

Buckwheat #5 (3/64" x 100M)


Coal breaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
destorzek@...
 

This discussion is on two lists concurrently. I sent this link to the other list... Lots of pix of different loading arrangements. The older facilities seem to consistently load one grade per track.

http://www.coaleducation.org/coalhistory/Coal_Preparation_Transportation.htm

Dennis Storzek.
Charles Tapper
 

I'm confident that is generally correct.

I think that relates to how the screening process, partly gravity fed, works. The large chunks are going to pass over the screens so I'll bet the coarser sizes are on the outer loaders and the finer on the inner loaders relative to source point.

Would be an interesting addition to coal ops.

Charlie Tapper


On Sep 20, 2015, at 11:06 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

This discussion is on two lists concurrently. I sent this link to the other list... Lots of pix of different loading arrangements. The older facilities seem to consistently load one grade per track.

http://www.coaleducation.org/coalhistory/Coal_Preparation_Transportation.htm

Dennis Storzek.
caboose9792@...
 

 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 12:20:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
http://www.corbu.us/Garys-L&N/Garys-L&N.html

The photo near the bottom of the page looking down the tracks in a yard (Bluefield WV on the N&W perhaps?) nicely illustrates the different sizes of coal that used to be shipped. Now from an operational and layout design standpoint, would each of these grades of coal have their own loading track at a coal mine or could more than one size be loaded on a track?

Steam era modelers need a LOT more variety in the sizes of coal in their hoppers cars.

Scott Chatfield
 
It varied by location and equipment, in the era of this list in the west KY/southern IL /Southern IN coal was hoisted to the surface by the mine cart full hoisted dumped to the tipple feed to the sorting screens arranged smallest to biggest. As the coal passed over the screen it dropped into the screen it fit though like a coin sorter. Once though the screen, or none on the last spot, dropped down to a movable chute to the waiting railcar below. Their was no tipple storage and if a mine couldn't get cars they couldn't work.

Not all cars loaded would be pulled other times coal would be pulled and held at a location as a "no bill" and the regulations allowed mines to hold cars under some conditions exempt from demurrage. See Chapter 20 of "Freight car distribution and car handling in the United States".
 
Mark rickert
caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 10:00:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
The modeling era will also impact the type of coal loads seen on railroads. In
the future, beyond 1960, power plants preferred the smaller sizes of coal.

On the other end of the STMFC spectrum in the true steam era, run of mine loads
are much more common and smaller Nut size loads are not very common. This is
possibly because fewer coal mines had much screening installed on their load out
tipples, or the screening was just for one size. Tipples eventually became
larger with the addition of more screen sizes. As time progressed, run of mine
coal would be sent to a cleaning plant for more efficient rock removal and to
sort the coal into finer sizes.

I model 1926 and coal loads exhibit noticeable piece size differences compared
to images from the 1950s.

Eric Hansmann
There was also a price break on buying mine run coal and sorting it yourself. Back when labor was cheep a small user of coal would buy mine run and than use pitchforks to fire the boiler or at least to load wheelbarrow. The gap between the forks would let the smaller sizes drop though. A selection of forks and a load can be sized and all that is left is the dust and fines to be shoveled up and discarded.

Also the size issue varied as the technology changed. Various stokers and grate systems had limits on size of material as well as burn rates on the coal. The largest sizes were used in hand firing and the smallest sizes would fall though the grate or clog the air passages. The revolution was in high capacity boilers that were grateless. 
 
Rather than use grates coal is pulverized to a powder and fired with air though a jet, like paint though an airbrush, and ignited. The small sized particles then flash burn out of the nozzle. The ash drops out and the hot gasses continue on to the boiler flues.The technology started taking off in the 1920's and I cant think of any place using anything else today on an industrial scale for production.
 
Since the coal is pulverized anyhow, starting with small lumps in the process is simpler it is also easier to make big lumps smaller than small lumps bigger. Since breakage became less of an issue and rough handling from mine face to burner, the process is no longer optimized not to break the big lumps, instead to move lots of coal fast. By the late part of the 50's old fine waste piles were being loaded out to some power plants as they could burn the old coal even with the derogated BTU given the price was only for loading and hauling and it sidestepped labor and cost increasers at the mines.
 
Mark Rickert
caboose9792@...
 

 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 12:57:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

I completely agree with this line of thinking, and have objected to some of the others at my RR club who removed the large loads from hoppers because “they’re not realistic.”  I have a question, though.  Are the cars in that photo classified for trains?  If they were not, it would suggest that various grades could be loaded as cars were pulled through the loader.  For that reason, I think that they have been classified and the cuts shown in the photo are destined for departure as trains.

Schuyler

 
 
 
Some mines, particularly Southern IL, more than one grade would be loaded in a gondola. Bords would be used to make temporary bulkheads. the car would be loaded in one section, when the mine shifter switched the loads the car would be moved back to the empty car area and pass though another track and get another grade. Particularly popular with small coal dealers, they could get multiple sizes yet only pay for a carload of coal.
 
Mark Rickert
caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 9/20/2015 9:55:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Sizing of coal was critical for the destination and use. Each size had a specific use - from steam coal to fine pea coal for home heating. The size of coal used in locomotive mechanical stokers needed to be smaller than the pieces of coal used for hand firing. As a result, most coal docks had two chutes to each track. Stoker coal was about 1"-2" pieces, while hand fired coal was larger, from about 4" to 6".

 
Even with sizing different seams had differing characteristics like ash and BTUs. Without looking up the mine numbers West Ky Coal Company (believe #8 and #5) tipples were side by side shaft mines. One was for number 9 seam the other number 12 seam. The tipple burned at one mine and since they were one over the other and both mines were about played out they punched though and used the same hoist for both mines till the end of production during WWII. Loads from the same mine might have similar look but  different characteristics, necessitating reclassification and my have a totally different market.
 
Mark Rickert
caboose9792@...
 

 
 
In a message dated 9/20/2015 11:09:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
This discussion is on two lists concurrently. I sent this link to the other list... Lots of pix of different loading arrangements. The older facilities seem to consistently load one grade per track.

http://www.coaleducation.org/coalhistory/Coal_Preparation_Transportation.htm

Dennis Storzek.
 
Here is a link to an image of a cross section of an old School tipple which would be typical for most of the era covered by the list. 
 
 
 
 
Mark Rickert
np328
 

      Why not go to where if you type in "coal", you get 4746 images related to coal?
 Not all of course are applicable, however many are and you can pick and choose photos by date or location.

     Locations vary from, Utah, Wyoming, Iowa, Illinois, to Alabama, and of course West Virginia and Pennsylvania.

I've mentioned before the Library of Congress site of <loc.gov> , Google up the loc.gov site, choose the "Prints and Photographs" , and in the search box type "coal" . Boom 4746 images, 20 per page.

Searching by Coal Car gets about 300 hits.

Here is a coal poster first:

Order coal now

and one more


http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2002722569/

 

 

and some coal cars with different size coal (I honestly was surprised on the size of the coal in the foreground car)


Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (vicinity). Champion no. 1 coal cleaning plant. Loading coal cars with cleaned coal which is ready for market







Several interesting NYC coal cars, and coal heaped that high?




http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/fsa1998011621/PP/

[Untitled photo, possibly related to: Coal miner's child taking home kerosene for lamps. Company houses, coal tipple in background. Pursglove, Scotts Run, West Virginia]

coal on the AT&SF, (c/o Jack Delano) and these all look like wooden gons

http://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004502/PP/


Coal gons in Minneapolis on the Milwaukee Rd, (this time by John Vachon) looks like south Minneapolis, however again, lots of wooden gons

http://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004502/PP/




Here in the town of Milwaukee, Wi, showing a gon being loaded and size sorted on the market end. This site shows up in a number of photos and was on large site.


http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/owi2001021632/PP/


There are also the enormous collection of HABS HAERS, the "Historic American Engineering Record", which often contain plans to keep any structure builder happy.

However, circling back to different grades of coal, and perhaps coal sizing, plenty of visual evidence here.

                                                                               James Dick - Roseville, MN  

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