caboose marker lights


Robert kirkham
 

[After having first checked that caboose topics are in scope], I have a question: given the very small LEDs available today (saw some red ones at 1mm x .3mm x .6mm), is there a convenient circuit folks use with DCC to limit and provide constant voltage for marker lights using these tiny LEDs?   Any experience with longevity?  Other caboose interior lighting? 
 
I’m considering using 3d printing to make accurate old style markers for CPR cabooses, with something appearing like the prototype mounting lug.  The idea is to design the shape to fit around the LED, so it fits into a small socket in the back and shines out the lenses.       (For those who have them, True Line Trains produced a pretty reasonable model of a typical CPR wood sheathed caboose.  But they compromised on marker location/mounting, attaching them through a hole in the end walls, rather than on the corners.  I want to correct that.  Images at <http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/120211.aspx?sortorder=desc>)
 
By the way, how many detail the interiors?
 
Rob
 


George Hollwedel
 

go to:


for all you lighting needs

  George Hollwedel

From: "Robert rdkirkham@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] caboose marker lights



[After having first checked that caboose topics are in scope], I have a question: given the very small LEDs available today (saw some red ones at 1mm x .3mm x .6mm), is there a convenient circuit folks use with DCC to limit and provide constant voltage for marker lights using these tiny LEDs?   Any experience with longevity?  Other caboose interior lighting? 
 
I’m considering using 3d printing to make accurate old style markers for CPR cabooses, with something appearing like the prototype mounting lug.  The idea is to design the shape to fit around the LED, so it fits into a small socket in the back and shines out the lenses.       (For those who have them, True Line Trains produced a pretty reasonable model of a typical CPR wood sheathed caboose.  But they compromised on marker location/mounting, attaching them through a hole in the end walls, rather than on the corners.  I want to correct that.  Images at <http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/120211.aspx?sortorder=desc>)
 
By the way, how many detail the interiors?
 
Rob
 





destorzek@...
 

How are you going to do the green lenses for the front and sides? Tomar already deis the definitive Adlake marker lamp, based on a micro bulb, that gives the proper lens colors. To bad there is no way to turn them when clear of the main.

Dennis Storzek


Jim Betz
 

Robert,

Look in the FILES folder for a sub-folder about "Flicker Free". If you can't find anything
contact me off list and I'll send you a description/circuit diagram. it is designed
specifically for cabeese and passenger cars and works equally well in both DC
and DCC.
- Jim B.


Bill Baker <bill_baker@...>
 

Yes, see nGineering's website: http://www.ngineering.com/accessories.htm .  I've used these circuits for lighting caboose markers.
 
Bill Baker

Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 10:13 PM
Subject: [STMFC] caboose marker lights

[After having first checked that caboose topics are in scope], I have a question: given the very small LEDs available today (saw some red ones at 1mm x .3mm x .6mm), is there a convenient circuit folks use with DCC to limit and provide constant voltage for marker lights using these tiny LEDs?   Any experience with longevity?  Other caboose interior lighting? 
 
I’m considering using 3d printing to make accurate old style markers for CPR cabooses, with something appearing like the prototype mounting lug.  The idea is to design the shape to fit around the LED, so it fits into a small socket in the back and shines out the lenses.       (For those who have them, True Line Trains produced a pretty reasonable model of a typical CPR wood sheathed caboose.  But they compromised on marker location/mounting, attaching them through a hole in the end walls, rather than on the corners.  I want to correct that.  Images at <http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/120211.aspx?sortorder=desc>)
 
By the way, how many detail the interiors?
 
Rob
 


Gary Ray
 

Klaus Keil is doing a clinic on just such a lighting circuit in the Sierra Division (PCR/NMRA) on Oct. 10 in Paradise, CA. It is also described in our April, 2015, newsletter. Can be for DC or DCC.
Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:22 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

Robert,

Look in the FILES folder for a sub-folder about "Flicker Free". If you can't find anything contact me off list and I'll send you a description/circuit diagram. it is designed specifically for cabeese and passenger cars and works equally well in both DC and DCC.
- Jim B.


------------------------------------
Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 

Hi Jim and List Members,

Being interested in this topic, I checked the FILES section as per Jim's suggestion and did not find anything...

Perhaps someone else turned something up? If so, what did you look under?

Claus Schlund

----- Original Message -----
From: "jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:22 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights


Robert,
Look in the FILES folder for a sub-folder about "Flicker Free". If you can't find anything
contact me off list and I'll send you a description/circuit diagram. it is designed
specifically for cabeese and passenger cars and works equally well in both DC
and DCC.
- Jim B.
------------------------------------
Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links


Steve SANDIFER
 

You can also check my website:

http://ssandifer.com/Lay/Howard/Const/LEDMarker/Index.htm

I used Jim's flicker free design.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 10:00 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

 

 

Hi Jim and List Members,

Being interested in this topic, I checked the FILES section as per Jim's suggestion and did not find anything...

Perhaps someone else turned something up? If so, what did you look under?

Claus Schlund

----- Original Message -----
From: "jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:22 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

> Robert,
>
> Look in the FILES folder for a sub-folder about "Flicker Free". If
> you can't find anything
> contact me off list and I'll send you a description/circuit diagram. it
> is designed
> specifically for cabeese and passenger cars and works equally well in
> both DC
> and DCC.
> - Jim B.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>


Tim O'Connor
 


Nice ... micro-size, nearly invisible, LED's now available can
be used for class lights and step lights too, they are that small!
We're going to need more DCC functions ! :-)

Tim O'Connor


You can also check my website:
http://ssandifer.com/Lay/Howard/Const/LEDMarker/Index.htm
I used Jim's flicker free design.


Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for all the recommendations.  Lots of interesting options there. 
 
Besides the size difference (which to makes the EZ-41 N-scale module more attractive for my HO cabeese) is there any other reason why one should prefer the Richmond Controls EZ-31 HO caboose module for HO equipment?  <http://www.richmondcontrols.com/>
 
Rob Kirkham
 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights
 



Nice ... micro-size, nearly invisible, LED's now available can
be used for class lights and step lights too, they are that small!
We're going to need more DCC functions ! :-)

Tim O'Connor


You can also check my website:
http://ssandifer.com/Lay/Howard/Const/LEDMarker/Index.htm
I used Jim's flicker free design.


George Hollwedel
 

 I don't think so, but ask Jim to be sure

George Hollwedel

 

From: "Robert rdkirkham@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights



Thanks for all the recommendations.  Lots of interesting options there. 
 
Besides the size difference (which to makes the EZ-41 N-scale module more attractive for my HO cabeese) is there any other reason why one should prefer the Richmond Controls EZ-31 HO caboose module for HO equipment?  <http://www.richmondcontrols.com/>
 
Rob Kirkham
 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights
 



Nice ... micro-size, nearly invisible, LED's now available can
be used for class lights and step lights too, they are that small!
We're going to need more DCC functions ! :-)

Tim O'Connor


You can also check my website:
http://ssandifer.com/Lay/Howard/Const/LEDMarker/Index.htm
I used Jim's flicker free design.





Jim Betz
 

Claus,

  Recheck FILES - I just added a folder there .. 


Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 


Hi Jim,
 
Thanks. Nice to see a successful application of a super-capacitor. I tried using these super-capacitors before, and found their high internal resistance to be an issue. In my case, I was using two Miniatronics light bulbs that required 60ma (30ma each), a much higher current draw than your LED approach would use.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

Claus,

  Recheck FILES - I just added a folder there .. 


Jim Betz
 

Hi all,

Claus - I'm working on a different circuit that is still based upon using
a super cap ... that can be used for either LEDs or bulbs - at the same
time. "Watch this space."

George - I don't even know what circuit Richmond sells. I've used
their products in the past and they work just fine ... but they tend to
target the DC market ... and the last time I checked they were very
"proud" of them. It was the available circuits such as those from
Richmond Controls that "sent me looking for an alternative that
works for/is designed for LEDs -and- works in either DC or DCC".

- Jim B.


Robert kirkham
 

To take that thought about Richmond Controls a little further . . . what I note on the Richmond site is that their products are only safe with DCC systems that maximum are 16 volts. Anything more is too much. That worried me a bit, although a resistor can be added to protect the circuit.

Rob Kirkham

-----Original Message-----
From: jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 10:22 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

Hi all,

Claus - I'm working on a different circuit that is still based upon using
a super cap ... that can be used for either LEDs or bulbs - at the same
time. "Watch this space."

George - I don't even know what circuit Richmond sells. I've used
their products in the past and they work just fine ... but they tend to
target the DC market ... and the last time I checked they were very
"proud" of them. It was the available circuits such as those from
Richmond Controls that "sent me looking for an alternative that
works for/is designed for LEDs -and- works in either DC or DCC".

- Jim B.


------------------------------------
Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


George Hollwedel
 

I am in DCC and Richmond Controls circuits work just fine. I know his locomotive circuits seem to be DC oriented but caboose and passenger car circuits work well for either.
 
Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
2108 Buffalo Tundra Dr
Austin, TX 78754-5960
512-579-0539
http://special.micro-trainsline.com/georgehollwedelmain
http://www.atlasrr.com/special.htm
http://intermountain-railway.com/n/sr/nsr.htm
http://www.bluford-shops.com/bluford_93_014.htm


From: "jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 12:22 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

Hi all,

  Claus - I'm working on a different circuit that is still based upon using
a super cap ... that can be used for either LEDs or bulbs - at the same
time.  "Watch this space."

  George - I don't even know what circuit Richmond sells.  I've used
their products in the past and they work just fine ... but they tend to
target the DC market ... and the last time I checked they were very
"proud" of them.  It was the available circuits such as those from
Richmond Controls that "sent me looking for an alternative that
works for/is designed for LEDs -and- works in either DC or DCC".

- Jim B.


------------------------------------
Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

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Steve SANDIFER
 

Here is what Jim Hinds (Richmond Controls) has to say in response.

 

 

Actually, Richmond Controls targets the MODEL RAILROAD MARKET.    ALL   Richmond Controls circuits are designed to work with ANY form of model railroad power.  DC or DCC, it doesn't matter.  I can't believe that ANYONE would design a circuit of this type that can only work with either DC or DCC --- it's just voltage.

 

Actually, DC power is much, much more of a problem to Richmond Controls circuits than DCC is.  Older DC power packs have been observed to put out 28 V peaks when lightly loaded.  That quickly kills the 16 V rated capacitor in many Richmond Controls circuits.  On the other hand, most boosters put out 12 V square waves for N Scale or 15 V square waves for HO scale, and these peak voltages are well below the rated input voltage.  I've seen a Digitrax booster with an O Scale setting to make it put out a 20 V square wave.  If you know that you have to survive 20 V, the simple solution is to use a capacitor with a higher voltage rating.  Richmond Controls has two modules (EZ08 and EZ09) designed just for this purpose.  But it would waste too much performance capability to simply use a 25 V capacitor in everything.  And that wouldn't prevent problems when 28 V peaks are coming along.

 

 

Some Richmond Controls modules have an input voltage limit of 16 V, which is above the track voltage seen with the more popular boosters.  The reason for this limit is that the input filter capacitor specifications require a compromise between voltage and capacitance.  I typically use a wonderful 150 microfarad capacitor rated at 16 V.  The next available option is 47 microfarads at 25 V.  In my experience, the high capacitance is more useful than another 9 volts of voltage rating that isn't really used.  When a tantalum capacitor is taken a volt or two above its voltage rating, it typically forms an internal short circuit.  This is actually very handy in a Richmond Controls circuit.  The short allows excessive current through the input diode, which then quickly open-circuits internally, acting as a fuse.  This protects the more sensitive and expensive components downstream of the capacitor, and it is really easy for me to replace the capacitor and diode (which I do for free).

 

 

But for systems applying more than 16 V on the rails, there are easy solutions if the user is aware what voltage he or she actually has.

 

 

One thing that very few people realize is that ALL DC permanent magnet motors have arcing between the motor brushes and the commutator.  When the motor is turning due to applied power, you can look in there and see it.  And you will notice that it becomes much brighter as the voltage is increased.  This arcing causes microscopic burning and pitting of the commutator.

 

The higher the voltage, the more serious the burning caused by this arcing becomes.  Having a pulse-width modulated input power source, like DCC or Aristocraft DC,  doesn't help much --- the voltage during the pulse is the PEAK voltage.  If anyone asked my advice, I'd strongly encourage them the steer clear of any system, DC or DCC, that puts more than 15 V   PEAK   on the rails.  This is why many well-informed HO Scalers use the N Scale (12 V) setting on their booster when the booster gives them that option.

 

 

Any supercap circuit can be used with any load, either LEDs or lamps or something else.  But the design problem is a combination of charging the supercap quickly without tripping out a booster, and then drawing current from the supercap through its appreciable internal resistance while expecting to have much voltage left over at the external terminals.  That internal resistance and lamp currents tend to work against each other, but low LED currents don't cause much in the way of voltage drops in the supercap's internal resistance.

 

Supercap circuits are ideal for driving LEDs used to create marker lamps.

 

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 12:55 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

 

 

To take that thought about Richmond Controls a little further . . . what I
note on the Richmond site is that their products are only safe with DCC
systems that maximum are 16 volts. Anything more is too much. That worried
me a bit, although a resistor can be added to protect the circuit.

Rob Kirkham

-----Original Message-----
From: jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 10:22 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

Hi all,

Claus - I'm working on a different circuit that is still based upon using
a super cap ... that can be used for either LEDs or bulbs - at the same
time. "Watch this space."

George - I don't even know what circuit Richmond sells. I've used
their products in the past and they work just fine ... but they tend to
target the DC market ... and the last time I checked they were very
"proud" of them. It was the available circuits such as those from
Richmond Controls that "sent me looking for an alternative that
works for/is designed for LEDs -and- works in either DC or DCC".

- Jim B.

------------------------------------
Posted by: jimbetz <jimbetz@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Robert kirkham
 

Hi Dennis
 
I was thinking I’d use transparent glazes to tint from neutral foggy transparent to green.  The actual green in the lamps I’ve seen have a strong bluish cast.  Depending on the LED light colour (how much yellow), that will influence my choice of paint colour.  But I’m not there yet . . . . .
 
Steve – thanks for posting the detailed info from Richmond Controls re the DC DCC question – it was quite reassuring.
 
 
 
Rob
 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 5:59 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights
 


How are you going to do the green lenses for the front and sides? Tomar already deis the definitive Adlake marker lamp, based on a micro bulb, that gives the proper lens colors. To bad there is no way to turn them when clear of the main.

Dennis Storzek
 


Steve SANDIFER
 

I use golden glow LEDs, then use "Gallery Glass" for the lenses. Gallery Glass is a liquid used to make "fake" stained glass, you can find it at Michaels and Hobby Lobby. That way I can have one led and different color lenses in the same marker light.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2015 12:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] caboose marker lights

 

 

Hi Dennis

 

I was thinking I’d use transparent glazes to tint from neutral foggy transparent to green.  The actual green in the lamps I’ve seen have a strong bluish cast.  Depending on the LED light colour (how much yellow), that will influence my choice of paint colour.  But I’m not there yet . . . . .

 

Steve – thanks for posting the detailed info from Richmond Controls re the DC DCC question – it was quite reassuring.

 

 

 

Rob

 

Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 5:59 AM

Subject: [STMFC] Re: caboose marker lights

 



How are you going to do the green lenses for the front and sides? Tomar already deis the definitive Adlake marker lamp, based on a micro bulb, that gives the proper lens colors. To bad there is no way to turn them when clear of the main.

Dennis Storzek