PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

This discussion about the PRR gun flat on the MC&CL raised an interesting question in my mind. Is there any record, or any photos, that show PRR F22, F23, or F30 (yes Ben, no hyphens anymore) on the West Coast?

The SP served a large Navy Base in Nevada (yes, Nevada) which stored or refurbished large guns. So might these guns have been shipped there from foundries on the East Coast on PRR flats? And what cars did the SP, or perhaps the Navy themselves, use to move these guns to installation points, likely Bremerton, San Francisco or Long Beach?

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Marty McGuirk
 

Garth, the facility in Nevada must be the former Naval Ammunition Depot, Hawthorne. Which since sometime in the 1980ss has been an Army base.

It was during WWII the largest facility of its kind in the world.

Ordnance,  and weapons, though (obviously!) very closely related are not the same thing in military parlance. In the Navy's pre-WWII organizational structure BuOrd and BuWeaps were two different entities - weapons - barrels and the like - were the bailiwick of BuWeaps and refurbished at the Washington Navy Yard, tested at Dahlgren, and then shipped to the shipyard for installation on the ships.

Weapons stations and depots are used either for long term storage and assembly of ordnance, or short term storage near naval bases.

Which brings up back to Hawthorne. It was a huge facility - employed more than 5,000 people in 1945. It was larger than the Weapons Depot at Crane, Indiana.

That said, I've never been able to find any reference to it being used to "store" naval rifles enroute to West Coast shipyards. I'm not saying it never happened, but it would have been the exception. The only time Hawthorne was used for large scale storage of naval rifles was immediately after WWII when the facility was used to store barrels from decommissioned or converted ships. Many of barrels were eventually sold for scrap. 

Out of curiosity I checked to see they had a shore-mount installation at Hawthorne for live-fire ammo tests. Can't find anything that confirms they did and until I do I assume they did not. 

Again, I wouldn't say they never had barrels shipped there from the East Coast for that purpose and/or "stored" there until it was shipped to the West Coast. But I can't find any proof of that.


Marty



Bruce Smith
 

Garth,

There is plenty of evidence of PRR flats just about everywhere and in fact a number of examples have been posted to this list of PRR general service flats on the west coast, including an F30a with a roll of cable on the Yosemite Valley and several loads being delivered to west coast power projects iirc.  The class FM flat car also quite likely made it out west.  Given that the F30 was a much smaller class than the very numerous F30a it is less likely that these were seen on the west coast.  During WWII at least, flat cars were in a national pool and thus their appearance would like be proportional to the numbers in the national fleet.

Changing gears to gun flats, we’ve also had this conversation.  Obviously, loads were not swapped to different cars during transit, so if a gun barrel was loaded on PRR F22 cars at the Washington Navy Yard (where all naval gun barrels were finished), then it stayed on those F22s to the destination.  However, what is also clear is that these shipments were typically made to depots, and not directly to naval shipyards.  At least during WWII, the depot to shipyard shuttle was handled by Milwaukee Road gun flats, assigned to the Union Pacific.  Note too that worn barrels were returned to the WNY for relining so the traffic is both directions.

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 3:38 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Friends,

This discussion about the PRR gun flat on the MC&CL raised an
interesting question in my mind. Is there any record, or any photos,
that show PRR F22, F23, or F30 (yes Ben, no hyphens anymore) on the West
Coast?

The SP served a large Navy Base in Nevada (yes, Nevada) which stored or
refurbished large guns. So might these guns have been shipped there from
foundries on the East Coast on PRR flats? And what cars did the SP, or
perhaps the Navy themselves, use to move these guns to installation
points, likely Bremerton, San Francisco or Long Beach?

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff




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Posted by: Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
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Steve Stull
 

In relation to this topic, is there evidence that naval rifles were shipped one at a time, or was a full compliment (9 or 12) shipped together to refit a ship?

I would think that relining a barrel was a pretty time consuming process. Is this the point that intermediate storage would come into play, ie, barrels relined and shipped as completed, and staged somewhere for fast access?

Thanks for the clarification.

Steve M Stull
Winslow7076@...


Bruce Smith
 

To add to what Marty said,

My materials indicate that new gun barrels for the west coast were shipped to Pocatello, Idaho.  The Milwaukee road gun flats were assigned there, as well as at least two couplets of PRR F22s.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:07 AM, mjmcguirk@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Garth, the facility in Nevada must be the former Naval Ammunition Depot, Hawthorne. Which since sometime in the 1980ss has been an Army base. 

It was during WWII the largest facility of its kind in the world. 

Ordnance,  and weapons, though (obviously!) very closely related are not the same thing in military parlance. In the Navy's pre-WWII organizational structure BuOrd and BuWeaps were two different entities - weapons - barrels and the like - were the bailiwick of BuWeaps and refurbished at the Washington Navy Yard, tested at Dahlgren, and then shipped to the shipyard for installation on the ships. 

Weapons stations and depots are used either for long term storage and assembly of ordnance, or short term storage near naval bases. 

Which brings up back to Hawthorne. It was a huge facility - employed more than 5,000 people in 1945. It was larger than the Weapons Depot at Crane, Indiana. 

That said, I've never been able t! o find any reference to it being used to "store" naval rifles enroute to West Coast shipyards. I'm not saying it never happened, but it would have been the exception. The only time Hawthorne was used for large scale storage of naval rifles was immediately after WWII when the facility was used to store barrels from decommissioned or converted ships. Many of barrels were eventually sold for scrap.  

Out of curiosity I checked to see they had a shore-mount installation at Hawthorne for live-fire ammo tests. Can't find anything that confirms they did and until I do I assume they did not. 

Again, I wouldn't say they never had barrels shipped there from the East Coast for that purpose and/or "stored" there until it was shipped to the West Coast. But I can't find any proof of that. 


Marty






Bruce Smith
 

Based on limited photo evidence, they appear to have been shipped one at a time for the transcontinental shipments.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Steve Stull winslow7076@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



In relation to this topic, is there evidence that naval rifles were shipped one at a time, or was a full compliment (9 or 12) shipped together to refit a ship?

I would think th! at relining a barrel was a pretty time consuming process. Is this the point that intermediate storage would come into play, ie, barrels relined and shipped as completed, and staged somewhere for fast access?

Thanks for the clarification.

Steve M Stull




Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Garth, Bruce, and List Members,
 
I stumbled upon this image, Los Angeles Public Library...
 
 
To see the full record, go to http://www.lapl.org/ then click on "Photo Collection", then search on keyword "On the way to Fort
MacArthur" without the quotes.
 
These sure look like PRR F22 cars to me. They are a long way from home. Note use of the load bridges. This was taken in 1917, World
War 1 era stuff.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Garth,

There is plenty of evidence of PRR flats just about everywhere and in fact a number of examples have been posted to this list of PRR general service flats on the west coast, including an F30a with a roll of cable on the Yosemite Valley and several loads being delivered to west coast power projects iirc.  The class FM flat car also quite likely made it out west.  Given that the F30 was a much smaller class than the very numerous F30a it is less likely that these were seen on the west coast.  During WWII at least, flat cars were in a national pool and thus their appearance would like be proportional to the numbers in the national fleet.

Changing gears to gun flats, we’ve also had this conversation.  Obviously, loads were not swapped to different cars during transit, so if a gun barrel was loaded on PRR F22 cars at the Washington Navy Yard (where all naval gun barrels were finished), then it stayed on those F22s to the destination.  However, what is also clear is that these shipments were typically made to depots, and not directly to naval shipyards.  At least during WWII, the depot to shipyard shuttle was handled by Milwaukee Road gun flats, assigned to the Union Pacific.  Note too that worn barrels were returned to the WNY for relining so the traffic is both directions.

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 3:38 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Friends,

This discussion about the PRR gun flat on the MC&CL raised an
interesting question in my mind. Is there any record, or any photos,
that show PRR F22, F23, or F30 (yes Ben, no hyphens anymore) on the West
Coast?

The SP served a large Navy Base in Nevada (yes, Nevada) which stored or
refurbished large guns. So might these guns have been shipped there from
foundries on the East Coast on PRR flats? And what cars did the SP, or
perhaps the Navy themselves, use to move these guns to installation
points, likely Bremerton, San Francisco or Long Beach?

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff




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Posted by: Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
------------------------------------


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Bruce Smith
 

Claus,

Awesome!  Indeed those are F22s.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 10:21 AM, 'Claus Schlund HGM' claus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi Garth, Bruce, and List Members,
 
I stumbled upon this image, Los Angeles Public Library...
 
 
To see the full record, go to http://www.lapl.org/ then click on "Photo Collection", then search on keyword "On the way to Fort 
MacArthur" without the quotes.
 
These sure look like PRR F22 cars to me. They are a long way from home. Note use of the load bridges. This was taken in 1917, World 
War 1 era stuff.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

Garth, 

There is plenty of evidence of PRR flats just about everywhere and in fact a number of examples have been posted to this list of PRR general service flats on the west coast, including an F30a with a roll of cable on the Yosemite Valley and several loads being delivered to west coast power projects iirc.  The class FM flat car also quite likely made it out west.  Given that the F30 was a much smaller class than the very numerous F30a it is less likely that these were seen on the west coast.  During WWII at least, flat cars were in a national pool and thus their appearance would like be proportional to the numbers in the national fleet.

Changing gears to gun flats, we’ve also had this conversation.  Obviously, loads were not swapped to different cars during transit, so if a gun barrel was loaded on PRR F22 cars at the Washington Navy Yard (where all naval gun barrels were finished), then it stayed on those F22s to the destination.  However, what is also clear is that these shipments were typically made to depots, and not directly to naval shipyards.  At least during WWII, the depot to shipyard shuttle was handled by Milwaukee Road gun flats, assigned to the Union Pacific.  Note too that worn barrels were returned to the WNY for relining so the traffic is both directions.

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 3:38 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Friends,

This discussion about the PRR gun flat on the MC&CL raised an 
interesting question in my mind. Is there any record, or any photos, 
that show PRR F22, F23, or F30 (yes Ben, no hyphens anymore) on the West 
Coast?

The SP served a large Navy Base in Nevada (yes, Nevada) which stored or 
refurbished large guns. So might these guns have been shipped there from 
foundries on the East Coast on PRR flats? And what cars did the SP, or 
perhaps the Navy themselves, use to move these guns to installation 
points, likely Bremerton, San Francisco or Long Beach?

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos 
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots 
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff




------------------------------------
Posted by: Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
------------------------------------


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SamClarke
 

Hello Marty, Garth, and group,
 
I was born and raised in Hawthorne, NV and worked at the base for while before moving to Oregon. 
 
The base did in fact store quite a number of 16" gun barrels mostly from the Iowa class of battle ships. They were just inside of the main base fence line and very visible from the highway. At least 9 of them were in new condition with plugged ends and new paint others were in different used and heavily weathered condition. Sometime in the early  1980s 9 of them were shipped to Bremerton, WA and fitted to the newly reactivated Missouri battle ship (sitting decommissioned since 1956) which seen action during Desert Storm firing 28 Tomahawk missiles and 759 16" shells.
  
The remaining barrels were eventually sold for scrap and cut up into "manageable" pieces and hauled off. There's a really nice little Ordnance Museum in Hawthorne with a couple pieces of the barrels on display. They were offered a complete barrel but unfortunately there wasn't any place to put it that could hold the weight of a full barrel. The museum is a former car dealership on the north end of town and I'd highly recommend stopping by if anyone's driving through Hawthorne.
 
I have a few photos of the barrels being loaded and moved to Bremerton and the only complete road number that I can see from the series of cars used is DODX 40027. There were 10 flat cars and 9 of them carried one barrel each in a special cradle and the 10th car was a trailing car as a buffer for the bit of overhang of the last barrel.
 
I'll bring these photos to Naperville and if you're really nice to me I'll show them to you.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 6:07 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast

 

Garth, the facility in Nevada must be the former Naval Ammunition Depot, Hawthorne. Which since sometime in the 1980ss has been an Army base.

It was during WWII the largest facility of its kind in the world.

Ordnance,  and weapons, though (obviously!) very closely related are not the same thing in military parlance. In the Navy's pre-WWII organizational structure BuOrd and BuWeaps were two different entities - weapons - barrels and the like - were the bailiwick of BuWeaps and refurbished at the Washington Navy Yard, tested at Dahlgren, and then shipped to the shipyard for installation on the ships.

Weapons stations and depots are used either for long term storage and assembly of ordnance, or short term storage near naval bases.

Which brings up back to Hawthorne. It was a huge facility - employed more than 5,000 people in 1945. It was larger than the Weapons Depot at Crane, Indiana.

That said, I've never been able to find any reference to it being used to "store" naval rifles enroute to West Coast shipyards. I'm not saying it never happened, but it would have been the exception. The only time Hawthorne was used for large scale storage of naval rifles was immediately after WWII when the facility was used to store barrels from decommissioned or converted ships. Many of barrels were eventually sold for scrap. 

Out of curiosity I checked to see they had a shore-mount installation at Hawthorne for live-fire ammo tests. Can't find anything that confirms they did and until I do I assume they did not. 

Again, I wouldn't say they never had barrels shipped there from the East Coast for that purpose and/or "stored" there until it was shipped to the West Coast. But I can't find any proof of that.


Marty



Marty McGuirk
 

Steve,


When a ship goes in for a major overhaul (no battleships were ever built on the West Coast as far as I can remember) a supply depot is set up and stuff is staged there for final shipment to the yard when it's needed. We do the same thing today with the subsets of the modules for the Aegis destroyers, and I assume the little rowboats Ben Hom works on now.... <g>


These "depots" can be co-located with the shipyard, or a long ways from them.


The guns being shipped to the West Coast would be refit guns - not for new construction. So there wouldn't be a requirement to replace all the guns on a ship at one time - it's strictly based on how many rounds (and what type of ammunition, and more importantly, powder) had been fired by the gun. As you might expect, fairly meticulous records of each barrel is maintained - it gives young junior officers something to do. The "typical" average was about 200 rounds per barrel before that barrel would need to be relined.

Changes in propellant upped that number over the years - by late in the Korean conflict, and when the New Jersey was decommissioned for Vietnam, we were using a Titanium Dioxide compound that significantly prolonged barrel life. (the shipboard name the stuff was "Swedish Additive" - I probably shouldn't go into detail as to WHY sailors chose to call it that....


As you can see from the history of this one gun, on display at the entrance to NSWC Dahlgren, many times the service life of the barrel far exceeded that 200 round "average" -

Sixteen-inch Naval Gun


Since I'm straying very, very far from STMFC content I'll close with one last comment  - I've been in some scary situations - no place I've ever been was more frightening than inside a battleship turret when those guns were being fired. Impressive, but terrifying!


Marty






Marty McGuirk
 

One piece of clarification on all this battleship gun stuff -

The vast majority of the gun barrels were made and relined as needed at WNY (Washington (DC) Navy Yard). But that's somewhat era dependent - between 1942 and sometime in the mid-1950s the facility in Pocatello, Idaho was used for relining and manufacturing guns. I'm not sure if they made 16" barrels there, but they certainly did reline them and likely manufactured other size barrels. 


http://idahodocs.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p2003coll1/id/139


gary laakso
 

Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, California at the mouth of the Napa River built the battleship California and it scrapped the battleship Montana that it had laid the keel of as part of the naval treaties in the 1920s.
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 11:44 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast
 
 

Steve,

 

When a ship goes in for a major overhaul (no battleships were ever built on the West Coast as far as I can remember) a supply depot is set up and stuff is staged there for final shipment to the yard when it's needed. We do the same thing today with the subsets of the modules for the Aegis destroyers, and I assume the little rowboats Ben Hom works on now....

 

These "depots" can be co-located with the shipyard, or a long ways from them.

 

The guns being shipped to the West Coast would be refit guns - not for new construction. So there wouldn't be a requirement to replace all the guns on a ship at one time - it's strictly based on how many rounds (and what type of ammunition, and more importantly, powder) had been fired by the gun. As you might expect, fairly meticulous records of each barrel is maintained - it gives young junior officers something to do. The "typical" average was about 200 rounds per barrel before that barrel would need to be relined.

Changes in propellant upped that number over the years - by late in the Korean conflict, and when the New Jersey was decommissioned for Vietnam, we were using a Titanium Dioxide compound that significantly prolonged barrel life. (the shipboard name the stuff was "Swedish Additive" - I probably shouldn't go into detail as to WHY sailors chose to call it that....

 

As you can see from the history of this one gun, on display at the entrance to NSWC Dahlgren, many times the service life of the barrel far exceeded that 200 round "average" -

Sixteen-inch Naval Gun

 

Since I'm straying very, very far from STMFC content I'll close with one last comment  - I've been in some scary situations - no place I've ever been was more frightening than inside a battleship turret when those guns were being fired. Impressive, but terrifying!

 

Marty

 

 

 

 


gary laakso
 

Marty, you should have said that the gun barrels moved over Sherman Hill!
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 12:01 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR Gun Flats on the West Coast
 
 

One piece of clarification on all this battleship gun stuff -

The vast majority of the gun barrels were made and relined as needed at WNY (Washington (DC) Navy Yard). But that's somewhat era dependent - between 1942 and sometime in the mid-1950s the facility in Pocatello, Idaho was used for relining and manufacturing guns. I'm not sure if they made 16" barrels there, but they certainly did reline them and likely manufactured other size barrels.

 

http://idahodocs.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p2003coll1/id/139


Brad Andonian
 

Gentlemen,

I have done some research on this topic a couple years back.    Specifically I was seeking info on the Puget Sound Naval Base at Bremerton, WA.    This was THE West Coast location for regunning battleships.     The MILW had about 10 heavy flats similar to the PRR F22; they were car floated to the Bremerton Base out of Seattle [current location of Terminal 5].

Based on info from the Historical Society and others here is what I found out:

Barrels were created at Washington Navy and sent either to Bremerton, Brooklyn or Philly for regunning the turrets.     The Kearsage [a WWI era battleship] was often used.    Due to the importance of the Kearsage, it did not leave US waters of the US west coast during WWII.  Barrels were replaced every 70-100 rounds fired!

At Bremerton, old barrels were pulled and shipped to Idaho.    At the Idaho base, they were relined and test fired then sent back to Bremerton.
East Coast barrels were relined at Washington Navy Yard and sent to Brooklyn or Philly for regunning.

Hope this helps and is of interest,
Brad Andonian
Seattle


Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.


      See my "Coast Line Pictorial," page 55, for such a load. But it's not on an F22. I have a Richard Hendrickson model of an F22, carrying a transformer.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.


    Reproduced in my Coast Line Pictorial book, page 55. I agree with the identification of the Magor flat, also shown in Kaminski's Magor book.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Benjamin Hom
 

Brad Andonian wrote:
"Barrels were created at Washington Navy and sent either to Bremerton, Brooklyn or Philly for regunning the turrets. The Kearsage [a WWI era battleship] was often used. Due to the importance of the Kearsage, it did not leave US waters of the US west coast during WWII."

Some clarification here.  Commissioned in 1900, well before the Great War, USS Kearsarge (BB 5) was made obsolete by the commissioning of HMS Dreadnought in 1906 and was of marginal military value by time of the US entry into the war in 1917.  In 1920, her armament, armor, and superstructure were removed and she was fitted with large bulges to improve stability, and a 250-ton heavy lift crane.  She was renamed Crane Ship No. 1 in 1941 to free her name for an Essex-class carrier.

Photos of Kearsarge after her conversion, including three showing re-gunning of USS Idaho (BB 48):
 
 
Ben Hom
 


Rod Miller
 

On 10/6/15 6:08 AM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@auburn.edu [STMFC] wrote:
Garth,
[snip]

There is a photograph of the Magor built Watervliet Arsenal #1, a 4 truck, 12 axle gun flat, unloading a gun for a coast artillery position in the San Francisco area on the Southern Pacific, I believe.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 6, 2015, at 3:38 AM, Garth Groff sarahsan@embarqmail.com<mailto:sarahsan@embarqmail.com> [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Friends,

This discussion about the PRR gun flat on the MC&CL raised an
interesting question in my mind. Is there any record, or any photos,
that show PRR F22, F23, or F30 (yes Ben, no hyphens anymore) on the West
Coast?

The SP served a large Navy Base in Nevada (yes, Nevada) which stored or
refurbished large guns. So might these guns have been shipped there from
foundries on the East Coast on PRR flats? And what cars did the SP, or
perhaps the Navy themselves, use to move these guns to installation
points, likely Bremerton, San Francisco or Long Beach?

I just thumbed through Tony's SP flat car book and didn't see any photos
of guns being shipped, but it was a quick flip-through. There are lots
of hunkin' big loads, but no naval guns.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff
jjjjj
While hiking north of San Francisco in the Golden Gate
National Recreation Area, I ran across a 16" gun barrel
from one of the batteries that were installed during
WW II to protect the port of San Francisco. Google
turned up this page about the move of the barrel from
Hawthorne to the GGNRA:

http://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/new-gun-update.htm

Note there is a link to additional hi res photos.

Unfortunately no steam era freight cars are shown in the
photos.

--
Rod Miller
Handcraftsman
===
Custom 2-rail O Scale Models: Drives, | O Scale West / S West
Repairs, Steam Loco Building, More | 2016 Meet is May 5 - 7
http://www.rodmiller.com | http://www.oscalewest.com


Jack Mullen
 

While it's true that no battleships were built on the West coast after the WW I era, there were several built earlier, from USS Oregon, BB-3, (launched 1893), Union Iron Works, San Francisco,  to USS California, BB-44, (launched 1919), Mare Island Navy Yard.

As far as I know, in addition to ordnance, much of the machinery and armor plate would have been produced in the East, generating quite a bit of potential traffic for early STMFC modelers.

Jack Mullen


spsalso
 

A neat picture (and comments) of the Washington Gun Shop:


Naval Gun Factory D.C. - 1943 pic





Ed


Edward Sutorik