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Livestock through Chicago
jeralbin@...
Yes, I think it was possible that stock traffic went east from the Chicago area. The Michigan Central (NYC)/IHB had a large stock yard in Calumet City, Illinois. Calumet City is just south and east of Chicago. It was on the north side of what’s known as State St. from Calumet Park interlocking on the west to just east of Burnham Ave. Photos of the yard and environs are in the Barriger and Delano collections and show many C.B.&Q. stock cars being unloaded at the yard for rest. The Q cars could have come via the IHB from Congress Park. Delano also shot a interesting photo of dairy cows being unloaded from a fancy horse car at the stock yard. The late Edward DeRouin’s book “The Pennsy in Chicago”makes note of east-ward livestock traffic on a photo caption on page 226. Regards...Jerry Albin, Homer Glen, Illinois
Steve in general yes. But there are many factors at play. One being the 28 hour law. Another the location where the car was loaded. Yet another, was the livestock held for a while in the Chicago area?
Livestock loaded in the mid-west, ie Illinois, Iowa, St Louis, that could get through Chicago within the 28 or 36 hrs, would arrive at their destination in the car they started in. The key is getting through Chicago. Livestock was a “hot” commodity and railroads kept it moving. No one wanted to unload livestock on their watch, get it to the next road was the attitude.
Livestock sold at the Chicago Union Stockyards, and destined for eastern destinations, ie eastern slaughter houses, would most likely be loaded into cars owned by eastern roads. Either roads that served Chicago or roads that served the destination. IE a change in ownership typically meant a change in car.
Many of the western roads had feed and rest stations just outside of Chicago. Livestock coming from some distance and destined for locations east of Chicago were often unloaded at these locations, and very likely were reloaded in the car they arrived in. Unless the feed & rest station had foreign cars on hand which they needed to move back towards home. Sometimes livestock owners used the feed & rest stations as a place to temporarily hold livestock to let them recover from travels or more likely to hope for a better price. If this happened the car they arrived in was moved on and a different car secured when the livestock were ready to move.
Doug Harding
I expect that most livestock was shipped directly to a stock market
to be sold, at least in the "steam era". Chicago had an enormous stock
market, the Union Stock Yards, and this would be the best place to find
the largest possible number of buyers.
For stock to pass directly through Chicago, it would have had to have
been sold to a buyer previously. Where would this have happened? There
were also large stock markets in Omaha, Kansas City, Sioux City, Denver ...
and even most "hot" trains couldn't get from KC through Chicago in 28
hours. I remember the Santa Fe's "hottest" perishable trains in the 1950's
took 109 hours to travel from central California to Chicago -- about 20 mph.
Maybe research would reveal the existence of joint tariffs on livestock that
pass through Chicago.
Tim O'Connor
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
to be sold, at least in the "steam era". Chicago had an enormous stock
market, the Union Stock Yards, and this would be the best place to find
the largest possible number of buyers.
For stock to pass directly through Chicago, it would have had to have
been sold to a buyer previously. Where would this have happened? There
were also large stock markets in Omaha, Kansas City, Sioux City, Denver ...
and even most "hot" trains couldn't get from KC through Chicago in 28
hours. I remember the Santa Fe's "hottest" perishable trains in the 1950's
took 109 hours to travel from central California to Chicago -- about 20 mph.
Maybe research would reveal the existence of joint tariffs on livestock that
pass through Chicago.
Tim O'Connor
Steve in general yes. But there are many factors at play. One being the 28 hour law. Another the location where the car was loaded. Yet another, was the livestock held for a while in the Chicago area?
Livestock loaded in the mid-west, ie Illinois, Iowa, St Louis, that could get through Chicago within the 28 or 36 hrs, would arrive at their destination in the car they started in. The key is getting through Chicago. Livestock was a �hot� commodity and railroads kept it moving. No one wanted to unload livestock on their watch, get it to the next road was the attitude.
Livestock sold at the Chicago Union Stockyards, and destined for eastern destinations, ie eastern slaughter houses, would most likely be loaded into cars owned by eastern roads. Either roads that served Chicago or roads that served the destination. IE a change in ownership typically meant a change in car.
Many of the western roads had feed and rest stations just outside of Chicago. Livestock coming from some distance and destined for locations east of Chicago were often unloaded at these locations, and very likely were reloaded in the car they arrived in. Unless the feed & rest station had foreign cars on hand which they needed to move back towards home. Sometimes livestock owners used the feed & rest stations as a place to temporarily hold livestock to let them recover from travels or more likely to hope for a better price. If this happened the car they arrived in was moved on and a different car secured when the livestock were ready to move.
Doug Harding
jeralbin@...
Yes, I think it was possible that stock traffic went east from the Chicago area. The Michigan Central (NYC)/IHB had a large stock yard in Calumet City, Illinois. Calumet City is just south and east of Chicago. It was on the north side of what’s known as State St. from Calumet Park interlocking on the west to just east of Burnham Ave. Photos of the yard and environs are in the Barriger and Delano collections and show many C.B.&Q. stock cars being unloaded at the yard for rest. The Q cars could have come via the IHB from Congress Park. Delano also shot a interesting photo of dairy cows being unloaded from a fancy horse car at the stock yard. The late Edward DeRouin’s book “The Pennsy in Chicago”makes note of east-ward livestock traffic from the Calumet City yard on a photo caption on page 226. Regards...Jerry Albin, Homer Glen, Illinois
SUVCWORR@...
Livestock sold at the Chicago Union Stockyards, and destined for eastern destinations, ie eastern slaughter houses, would most likely be loaded into cars owned by eastern roads. Either roads that served Chicago or roa ds that served the destination. IE a change in ownership typically meant a change in car.
Rich Orr
There were livestock buyers or brokers who roamed the livestock raising
areas, stopping at farms and ranches buying animals on the hoof direct from
the farmer. The broker then arranged transportation via truck or rail to
their destination, which could be a large sale barn at a union stockyard for
resale; it could be a slaughter operation near by or in another state; it
could be another farmer looking for animals to fatten or to breed. Meat
packers kept many brokers busy because the packer had to keep the lines
running at the plant and needed a steady supply of animals to slaughter. And
some farmers were glad to see the brokers as it saved them the trouble of
transportation, reduced the risk of loss, and put a check in their hand
immediately. Some brokers were buyers for specific packers, others were
independent acting as middle men selling to anyone where there was a market.
A buyer for Tobin, for example, could be buying hogs in Iowa and Nebraska
for the Tobin plants in Iowa but also for the Tobin plant in New York. The
hogs would be shipped where needed. If New York, they went through Chicago,
most often via the IHB. And depending upon when and where they were loaded,
they may not be stopped until somewhere in Ohio or perhaps their arrival in
New York. Livestock moved, it did not sit idle.
Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
areas, stopping at farms and ranches buying animals on the hoof direct from
the farmer. The broker then arranged transportation via truck or rail to
their destination, which could be a large sale barn at a union stockyard for
resale; it could be a slaughter operation near by or in another state; it
could be another farmer looking for animals to fatten or to breed. Meat
packers kept many brokers busy because the packer had to keep the lines
running at the plant and needed a steady supply of animals to slaughter. And
some farmers were glad to see the brokers as it saved them the trouble of
transportation, reduced the risk of loss, and put a check in their hand
immediately. Some brokers were buyers for specific packers, others were
independent acting as middle men selling to anyone where there was a market.
A buyer for Tobin, for example, could be buying hogs in Iowa and Nebraska
for the Tobin plants in Iowa but also for the Tobin plant in New York. The
hogs would be shipped where needed. If New York, they went through Chicago,
most often via the IHB. And depending upon when and where they were loaded,
they may not be stopped until somewhere in Ohio or perhaps their arrival in
New York. Livestock moved, it did not sit idle.
Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 8:13 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago
I expect that most livestock was shipped directly to a stock market to be
sold, at least in the "steam era". Chicago had an enormous stock market, the
Union Stock Yards, and this would be the best place to find the largest
possible number of buyers.
For stock to pass directly through Chicago, it would have had to have been
sold to a buyer previously. Where would this have happened? There were also
large stock markets in Omaha, Kansas City, Sioux City, Denver ...
and even most "hot" trains couldn't get from KC through Chicago in 28 hours.
I remember the Santa Fe's "hottest" perishable trains in the 1950's took 109
hours to travel from central California to Chicago -- about 20 mph.
Maybe research would reveal the existence of joint tariffs on livestock that
pass through Chicago.
Tim O'Connor
the livestock held for a while in the Chicago area?
destination in the car they started in. The key is getting through Chicago.
Livestock was a hot commodity and railroads kept it moving. No one wanted
to unload livestock on their watch, get it to the next road was the
attitude.
cars owned by eastern roads. Either roads that served Chicago or roads that
served the destination. IE a change in ownership typically meant a change in
car.
of Chicago were often unloaded at these locations, and very likely were
reloaded in the car they arrived in. Unless the feed & rest station had
foreign cars on hand which they needed to move back towards home. Sometimes
livestock owners used the feed & rest stations as a place to temporarily
hold livestock to let them recover from travels or more likely to hope for a
better price. If this happened the car they arrived in was moved on and a
different car secured when the livestock were ready to move.
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Yahoo Groups Links
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 8:13 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago
I expect that most livestock was shipped directly to a stock market to be
sold, at least in the "steam era". Chicago had an enormous stock market, the
Union Stock Yards, and this would be the best place to find the largest
possible number of buyers.
For stock to pass directly through Chicago, it would have had to have been
sold to a buyer previously. Where would this have happened? There were also
large stock markets in Omaha, Kansas City, Sioux City, Denver ...
and even most "hot" trains couldn't get from KC through Chicago in 28 hours.
I remember the Santa Fe's "hottest" perishable trains in the 1950's took 109
hours to travel from central California to Chicago -- about 20 mph.
Maybe research would reveal the existence of joint tariffs on livestock that
pass through Chicago.
Tim O'Connor
Steve in general yes. But there are many factors at play. One being the 28hour law. Another the location where the car was loaded. Yet another, was
the livestock held for a while in the Chicago area?
get through Chicago within the 28 or 36 hrs, would arrive at their
Livestock loaded in the mid-west, ie Illinois, Iowa, St Louis, that could
destination in the car they started in. The key is getting through Chicago.
Livestock was a hot commodity and railroads kept it moving. No one wanted
to unload livestock on their watch, get it to the next road was the
attitude.
destinations, ie eastern slaughter houses, would most likely be loaded into
Livestock sold at the Chicago Union Stockyards, and destined for eastern
cars owned by eastern roads. Either roads that served Chicago or roads that
served the destination. IE a change in ownership typically meant a change in
car.
Chicago. Livestock coming from some distance and destined for locations east
Many of the western roads had feed and rest stations just outside of
of Chicago were often unloaded at these locations, and very likely were
reloaded in the car they arrived in. Unless the feed & rest station had
foreign cars on hand which they needed to move back towards home. Sometimes
livestock owners used the feed & rest stations as a place to temporarily
hold livestock to let them recover from travels or more likely to hope for a
better price. If this happened the car they arrived in was moved on and a
different car secured when the livestock were ready to move.
Doug Harding
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------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Greg Martin
Steve,
I think this was more about the cars and the roads that owned them than how
the cars moved through or around Chicago, correct?
If I am correct then photo graphic evidence would tell us that you would
find Santa Fe and Rock Island cars beyond Chicago whether reloaded or in the
original car.
Greg Martin
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through
it.
Norman Maclean
Norman Maclean
In a message dated 10/10/2015 8:38:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
STMFC@... writes:
Was it possible for livestock travelling thorough Chicago from a Western road like ATSF or RI to be reloaded in those roads' cars for furtherance to points on Eastern roads?
With thanks in advance,
Steve Lucas.
Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
Classic Trains has published photos of CNW and ATSF stock cars on PRR's horseshoe curve, presumably empty Westbound, based upon location in the consist. I imagine other roads also sent livestock East of Chicago.
Nelson Moyer
On Oct 11, 2015, at 6:16 AM, "jeralbin@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
Yes, I think it was possible that stock traffic went east from the Chicago area. The Michigan Central (NYC)/IHB had a large stock yard in Calumet City, Illinois. Calumet City is just south and east of Chicago. It was on the north side of what’s known as State St. from Calumet Park interlocking on the west to just east of Burnham Ave. Photos of the yard and environs are in the Barriger and Delano collections and show many C.B.&Q. stock cars being unloaded at the yard for rest. The Q cars could have come via the IHB from Congress Park. Delano also shot a interesting photo of dairy cows being unloaded from a fancy horse car at the stock yard. The late Edward DeRouin’s book “The Pennsy in Chicago”makes note of east-ward livestock traffic on a photo caption on page 226. Regards...Jerry Albin, Homer Glen, Illinois
The presence of a foreign road stock car has no useful information
to impart regarding its place of origin, any more than the presence
of a foreign road box car does. Stock cars and box cars roamed freely
under AAR rules. The reason so few are seen "off line" is that most
of the loads terminated "on line".
Tim O'Connor
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
to impart regarding its place of origin, any more than the presence
of a foreign road box car does. Stock cars and box cars roamed freely
under AAR rules. The reason so few are seen "off line" is that most
of the loads terminated "on line".
Tim O'Connor
Classic Trains has published photos of CNW and ATSF stock cars on PRR's horseshoe curve, presumably empty Westbound, based upon location in the consist. I imagine other roads also sent livestock East of Chicago.
Nelson Moyer
The average IHB and BRC transfer times for freight cars in the
1950's was 48 hours. There were some "quick" connections for perishables
and stock (as measured in a few hours) but not many.
Think about it -- a broker at some random farm in Nebraska has to get
the livestock to a rail load out after making arrangements with the
local railroad, then make sure the cars are picked up by exactly the
right train(s) so they can be swiftly transported to a connection in
Chicago, transferred to the IHB, hauled across Chicago, miraculously
make a specific high speed (e.g. 30 mph) connection to New York --
and do all of this in 28 hours? Fat chance.
And where were these large cattle yards in rural Ohio?
Tim O'Connor
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
1950's was 48 hours. There were some "quick" connections for perishables
and stock (as measured in a few hours) but not many.
Think about it -- a broker at some random farm in Nebraska has to get
the livestock to a rail load out after making arrangements with the
local railroad, then make sure the cars are picked up by exactly the
right train(s) so they can be swiftly transported to a connection in
Chicago, transferred to the IHB, hauled across Chicago, miraculously
make a specific high speed (e.g. 30 mph) connection to New York --
and do all of this in 28 hours? Fat chance.
And where were these large cattle yards in rural Ohio?
Tim O'Connor
A buyer for Tobin, for example, could be buying hogs in Iowa and Nebraska
for the Tobin plants in Iowa but also for the Tobin plant in New York. The
hogs would be shipped where needed. If New York, they went through Chicago,
most often via the IHB. And depending upon when and where they were loaded,
they may not be stopped until somewhere in Ohio or perhaps their arrival in
New York. Livestock moved, it did not sit idle.
Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
There was no AAR rule prohibiting the loading of western cars at Chicago
and sending them east. Such a decision would simply be based on availability
of cars and per diem considerations just as it would for box cars or hopper
cars.
On the other hand, if you were a photographer and you saw a train with an
unusually large block of foreign road stock cars -- what would you do?
Tim O'Connor
- Livestock sold at the Chicago Union Stockyards, and destined for eastern destinations, ie eastern slaughter houses, would most likely be loaded into cars owned by eastern roads. Either roads that served Chicago or roa ds that served the destination. IE a change in ownership typically meant a change in car.
Yet there is photographic evidence of significant numbers of western and mid-west cars in PRR stock trains particularly FW-8.
Rich Orr
Allen Rueter
Some clues may be found in 1% way bills
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015019920837;view=1up;seq=209;size=150
Cattle from Nebr. to NY exists, but not dominate, revenue looks good, but given the distance, that would be higher anyway.
Allen Rueter
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015019920837;view=1up;seq=209;size=150
Cattle from Nebr. to NY exists, but not dominate, revenue looks good, but given the distance, that would be higher anyway.
Allen Rueter
jeralbin@...
Livestock (cattle, sheep and hogs) on the C.B.&Q. was handed off to the IHB at Congress Park. The IHB did not “Haul it across Chicago”. Congress Park is west of Chicago, the IHB went south and then east, skirting Chicago, to the IHB/MC Calumet City stock yard. From what I have been told, this was done in a timely manner. There, the cattle , sheep and hogs were unloaded, fed, watered and rested. Hogs were also feed and watered in the stock cars with hoses on dedicated tracks. The cattle, sheep and hogs were then re-loaded into stock cars (N.P., C.B.&Q., M.P., MILW.). All this stock ended up going east. Jack Delano’s series taken at the Calumet City yard in the ‘40's clearly illustrate what I have described. Barriger’s photos taken at Burnham Ave. show strings of western stock cars at the Calumet City stock yard. Again, the late Edward DeRouin’s book “The Pennsy in Chicago”makes note of east-ward livestock traffic from the Calumet City yard on a photo caption on page 226. Regards...Jerry Albin
dale florence <dwwesley@...>
A little off subject. As a kid, I would go with my neighbor to these stock yards and dig up red worms. All you had to do was take a shovel and turn over a pile of Cow poop. I have been there when trains have pulled up and the cattle were off loaded. Dale Florence |
From: jeralbin@... [STMFC] ;
To: ;
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2015 10:31:08 PM
|
Livestock (cattle, sheep and hogs) on the C.B.&Q. was handed off to the IHB at Congress Park. The IHB did not “Haul it across Chicago”. Congress Park is west of Chicago, the IHB went south and then east, skirting Chicago, to the IHB/MC Calumet City stock yard. From what I have been told, this was done in a timely manner. There, the cattle , sheep and hogs were unloaded, fed, watered and rested. Hogs were also feed and watered in the stock cars with hoses on dedicated tracks. The cattle, sheep and hogs were then re-loaded into stock cars (N.P., C.B.&Q., M.P., MILW.). All this stock ended up going east. Jack Delano’s series taken at the Calumet City yard in the ‘40's clearly illustrate what I have described. Barriger’s photos taken at Burnham Ave. show strings of western stock cars at the Calumet City stock yard. Again, the late Edward DeRouin’s book “The Pennsy in Chicago”makes note of east-ward livestock traffic from the Calumet City yard on a photo caption on page 226. Regards...Jerry Albin |
Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
The price that a farmer would get for his livestock at the gate of the packing house would be by weight on the hoof. An historic and vexing major problem borne by farmers was poundage lost by livestock during rail shipment, i.e. longer shipping times = more lost poundage. This lost weight during shipment was a major political problem very early in the last century, and was a central issue in the passage of the historic Grange Acts. With this fact in mind, there was considerable incentive to ship to the closest convenient market, offering prices and shipping costs and schedules also tilting the scales. So, intuitively, this alone had to limit severely livestock through Chicago with all of its obstacles, interechanges, and switching, although quite obviously some in fact did.
Mention is made of the late Ed deRouin’s book on the Pennsy in Chicago, IMHO the very best book on urban railroading yet written. It is a simply amazing book, hard for me to set down.
Denny
Denny S Anspach MD
Sacramento, CA
Alex Schneider
Denny,
The Wikipedia article on the Grange Acts focuses on their application to grain shipments, and on the Wabash case which overturned an Illinois law as it applied to railroads. This led to passage of the Interstate Commerce Commission Act by Congress.
Can you point me to further information on the application of the Grange Acts to livestock shipments? Thanks.
Alex Schneider
From: "Denny Anspach danspachmd@... [STMFC]"
To: Steam Era Freight Car List
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 8:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago
The price that a farmer would get for his livestock at the gate of the packing house would be by weight on the hoof. An historic and vexing major problem borne by farmers was poundage lost by livestock during rail shipment, i.e. longer shipping times = more lost poundage. This lost weight during shipment was a major political problem very early in the last century, and was a central issue in the passage of the historic Grange Acts. With this fact in mind, there was considerable incentive to ship to the closest convenient market, offering prices and shipping costs and schedules also tilting the scales. So, intuitively, this alone had to limit severely livestock through Chicago with all of its obstacles, interechanges, and switching, although quite obviously some in fact did.Mention is made of the late Ed deRouin’s book on the Pennsy in Chicago, IMHO the very best book on urban railroading yet written. It is a simply amazing book, hard for me to set down.DennyDenny S Anspach MDSacramento, CA
And how is any of THIS related to freight cars, exactly? If we can't
discuss taxes on freight car movements, why can we discuss the price of
livestock, and Grange legislation ??
Denny,
The Wikipedia article on the Grange Acts focuses on their application to grain shipments, and on the Wabash case which overturned an Illinois law as it applied to railroads. This led to passage of the Interstate Commerce Commission Act by Congress.
Can you point me to further information on the application of the Grange Acts to livestock shipments? Thanks.
Alex Schneider
- From: "Denny Anspach danspachmd@... [STMFC]"
- To: Steam Era Freight Car List
- Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 8:13 AM
- Subject: [STMFC] Re: Livestock through Chicago
- The price that a farmer would get for his livestock at the gate of the packing house would be by weight on the hoof. An historic and vexing major problem borne by farmers was poundage lost by livestock during rail shipment, i.e. longer shipping times = more lost poundage. This lost weight during shipment was a major political problem very early in the last century, and was a central issue in the passage of the historic Grange Acts. With this fact in mind, there was considerable incentive to ship to the closest convenient market, offering prices and shipping costs and schedules also tilting the scales. So, intuitively, this alone had to limit severely livestock through Chicago with all of its obstacles, interechanges, and switching, although quite obviously some in fact did.
- Mention is made of the late Ed deRouin’s book on the Pennsy in Chicago, IMHO the very best book on urban railroading yet written. It is a simply amazing book, hard for me to set down.
- Denny S Anspach MD
- Sacramento, CA
Charlie Vlk
I am not sure, but I suspect the IHB handled stock to the Chicago Stockyards for the CB&Q as well. I have to research this, but I am guessing that when Western Avenue Yard ceased being the termination point for trains into Chicago (some time in the 1920s?) the transfer down to the stockyards became too long and the stock was handed off to the IHB instead. The Q had a line paralleling the Panhandle down to Stock Yards Junction from Western Avenue. I grew up in Brookfield and recall a lot of stockcars being set out at Congress Park by inbounds while the Chicago Stockyards were still in operation….probably more than would be expected to go East beyond Chicago.
I’ll start a thread over on the CB&Q list and see if anyone has studied this….
Charlie Vlk
Livestock (cattle, sheep and hogs) on the C.B.&Q. was handed off to the IHB at Congress Park. The IHB did not “Haul it across Chicago”. Congress Park is west of Chicago, the IHB went south and then east, skirting Chicago, to the IHB/MC Calumet City stock yard. From what I have been told, this was done in a timely manner.
.