Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
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amwing1588@...
Hi all,
Does anyone know if Covered Hoppers were used prior to WWII (Late 30's to early 40's) that may have found they're way West of the Mississippi? I've looked on the Funaro-Camerlengo site, which lists a few specific carriers in the date range I'm interested in, but I'm not sure how accurate that information is. Did any Western Roads have them or at least had common interchange services that would have use them? Lastly, is there a good reference that covers the design type, loads carried and which roads used them the most. I'm setting up a late depression / Pre--WWII era roster and would like to include some Covered Hoppers...if prototypical. Thanks to all in advance John Miller Folsom, CA.
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Jim Mischke
Your search for covered hoppers out west may be unfruitful for two reasons. - Most of the early adopters were northeastern roads. The Florida roads like ACL, SAL also, who employed their covered hoppers in quarry to waterfront service. - The first killer app for covered hoppers was cement, with very localized markets. The ingredients can be found in many geological formations nationwide, so there is no need to ship the stuff cross country. I can think of one possible exception. At the outbreak of WWII, the oil refiners were moving from heat cracking to catalysed cracking, which was far, far more efficient. Won the war, to hear the oil companies' version of history. The alumina catalyst would go from a supplier like Davison in Baltimore to any refiner who bought it. Not every day, just when the catalyst had to be refreshed maybe a couple times a year. In 1940-41, this was a brand new hot (pun intended) technology; a western refinery would have to be tooled up to use catalyst, and be able to unload a covered hopper car. A tall order, if to be in time for your pre-WWII era theme.
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Tony Thompson
Santa Fe had some before the war, all in cement service as far as I know. UP also bought some close to 1940, don't have the date at hand, and likewise for cement. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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The M&StL (west of the Mississippi) purchased 10 covered hoppers in 1940. They were used for cement service. Next order for covered hoppers was placed in 1947 for 50 cars.
Doug Harding
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I received a note from someone about my Ebay auction of a Santa Fe Ga-45 covered hopper that the cars were used in sand service from Oceanside CA to a glass plant in the Los Angeles area. The cars were built in the late 1930's. Coal, gravel, sand, and stone were huge tonnage categories for railroads but are often overlooked by modelers. For example, in Illinois for the period 1937-1939, categories "Gravel and Sand, Stone" (Stone is subdivided into 3 cargo categories) are approx 8.2 million tons versus 44.1 million tons for bituminous coal. In other words sand/stone traffic is almost 20% as large as coal traffic! Together these two types of traffic represented 41% of all tonnage originating in Illinois in that time period. Tim O'
Santa Fe had some before the war, all in cement service as far as I know. UP also bought some close to 1940, don't have the date at hand, and likewise for cement.
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golden1014
Hi John,
They most certainly would be prototypical. I'm also interested in early covered hoppers because they come in a fascinating variety of stylesunlike hte later 1958 cuft cars and later PS cars which all looked the same. I have collected a small file of photos at work of B&O, NYC, PRR and other early covered hoppers and I'd be happy to share the photos with you. E-mail me offline at Golden1014 at Yahoo.com. I just ran across a photo of a NKP car, rebuilt from a USRA hopper, that I'm dying to model next in HO. RCW makes decals so it should be easy using a Tichy car to start with. I recently finished kitbashing an HO model of a C&O car (300-series) which was easy to rebuild using the Intermountain car. I'm sure these cars generally saw captive service on their home railroads but we could justify one showing up from time to time. John Golden O'Fallon, IL
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Ray Breyer
The DL&W photo collection at Steamtown has a fascinating collection of six photos (X7126-X7132) showing HCCX/Hercules Portland Cement covered hoppers on a barge in Hoboken, taken on 4/1/1930. Zooming in on a few of these cars shows them to be 70 ton, four discharge bay cars, with a new date of 12/1928.The number series is at least HCCX 1002-1028 (my 1930 ORER is buried right now so I can't confirm the full series). Sadly, the cars "seem" to have a reweigh station on the L&NE, so it's doubtful that they made it west of the Mississippi. Still, it's fun to see covered hoppers that old, and with stemwinders! Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
Carbon Black covered hoppers were first built around 1933 and travelled from carbon black plants to various industries involved in tyre production and printing supplies. I believe a tyre manufacturing plant in Denver received cars but I don’t know if it was pre or post WW2. Perhaps other list members have more info on the various destinations of these cars, beyond the tyre manufacturers in Ohio. Cheers Dave North
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Ed Hawkins
On Oct 14, 2015, at 5:29 PM, amwing1588@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote: Does anyone know if Covered Hoppers were used prior to WWII (Late 30's to early 40's) that may have found they're way West of the Mississippi? I've looked on the Funaro-Camerlengo site, which lists a few specific carriers in the date range I'm interested in, but I'm not sure how accurate that information is. Did any Western Roads have them or at least had common interchange services that would have use them? Lastly, is there a good reference that covers the design type, loads carried and which roads used them the most. I'm setting up a late depression / Pre--WWII era roster and would like to include some Covered Hoppers...if prototypical. John, Volumes 27, 28, & 30 of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia devote 250 pages mainly to purpose-built ACF-design 1,958 cu. ft. covered hopper cars. Some were built before World War II not only by ACF but several other builders. As part of the introduction to the ACF design in Vol. 27, also discussed are some early conversions of HM hopper cars into covered hoppers. A number of railroads having significant trackage west of the Mississippi River purchased cars of this type before the early 1940s. In addition to those already mentioned (ATSF, M&StL, UP) are CB&Q, GN, IC, KCS. MILW, MP, NP, RI, & Wabash. A few others likely found their way west of the Mississippi River that include private owner ILDX (General Electric) and SHPX cars leased to Aluminum Ore Co. Volumes 27 and 28 are sold out at the publisher while Vol. 30 was released just 3 weeks ago. Some book or hobby dealers might have remaining stock of 27 and 28. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Dave Parker
Just to add to what Ray wrote: I can't find these HCCX cement cars in my 1930 ORER, but I have seen the pix, and the build date is indeed 12-28. They do, however, appear in my 1935 edition: 50 cars, numbered 1001 to 1050. Interestingly, they appear to be running on Andrews trucks (presumably 70 ton). Within my limited knowledge, these would appear to be some of the very earliest covered hoppers in the U.S. Dave Parker Riverside, CA
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:14 PM, "Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]" wrote: The DL&W photo collection at Steamtown has a fascinating collection of six photos (X7126-X7132) showing HCCX/Hercules Portland Cement covered hoppers on a barge in Hoboken, taken on 4/1/1930. Zooming in on a few of these cars shows them to be 70 ton, four discharge bay cars, with a new date of 12/1928.The number series is at least HCCX 1002-1028 (my 1930 ORER is buried right now so I can't confirm the full series). Sadly, the cars "seem" to have a reweigh station on the L&NE, so it's doubtful that they made it west of the Mississippi. Still, it's fun to see covered hoppers that old, and with stemwinders! Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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charles slater
The Santa Fe only had 10 in service before the war, the Ga-45 class built in 1936 by AC&F. Charlie Slater To: STMFC@... From: STMFC@... Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:20:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers? The M&StL (west of the Mississippi) purchased 10 covered hoppers in 1940. They were used for cement service. Next order for covered hoppers was placed in 1947 for 50 cars.
Doug Harding
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Rufus Cone
In the NPRHA's The Mainstreeter, Vol 8 No. 4, Fall 1989, I with Matt
Herson covered the "Acquisition of Covered Hoppers" by the NP, using
primary sources from the NPR corporate records at the Minnesota
Historical Society. This covers only two-bay covered hoppers.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
By May 1940, NP had leased 30 1958 CuFt covered hoppers from General American Car Co., stated in correspondence to be copies of ACF Plan 6147192-B 70 ton cars. Arsenic, from smelters in Tacoma and Butte, was a commodity for which they anticipated the cars to be used in addition to cement. Covered hoppers owned by URT were already in service between Billings and Chicago handling sugar for Mars, Inc, and much later NP acquired Airslide cars for that type of service. Early operations of those cars are described. For those who may be interested, deliberations started in 1934 with the Western Association of Railway Executives (WARE), with member roads CB&Q, C&NW, CGW, MSP&P (MILW), Rock Island, GN, M&StL, MStP&SStM, NP, and UP. Details are provided on the varied thinking and interactions. Scanned copies are sold in the NPRHA Company Store http://www1.storehost.com/stores/xq/xfm/store_id.615/page_id.23/Item_ID.50351/parent_ids.0,0,4/qx/store.htm Rufus Cone Bozeman, MT
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water.kresse@...
The C&O used "roofed-hopper cars" . . . covered regular hopper cars, sometimes with new steeper slope-sheets and hopper-door-bays.
Al Kresse
From: "amwing1588@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:29:47 PM Subject: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers? Hi all, John Miller Folsom, CA.
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water.kresse@...
The C&O's pre-WW2 "covered hopper cars" are the 1937 and newer 1937 & 1945 C&O Freight Cars books. Cars were converted HMR 1932-1937 and new LO 1937-1938.
Al Kresse
From: "Rufus Cone rclist09@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:02:31 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers? In the NPRHA's The Mainstreeter, Vol 8 No. 4, Fall 1989, I with Matt Herson covered the "Acquisition of Covered Hoppers" by the NP, using primary sources from the NPR corporate records at the Minnesota Historical Society. This covers only two-bay covered hoppers.
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Eric Hansmann
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the PRR H30 covered hoppers that were built in 1936. They were quite distinctive. http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_254351_H30_MLC1939.jpg&fr=clH30
Eric Hansmann
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 7:53 AM To: Steam Era Frt Car Group Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
The C&O used "roofed-hopper cars" . . . covered regular hopper cars, sometimes with new steeper slope-sheets and hopper-door-bays.
Al Kresse
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Aley, Jeff A
Tony remembered the UP cars very accurately. There were 100 cars in class CH-70-1 built by GATC in 1940. These may be modeled in HO with the Intermountain 1,958 cu-ft LO.
Regards,
-Jeff
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:10 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Depression era / pre-WWII Covered Hoppers?
Santa Fe had some before the war, all in cement service as far as I know. UP also bought some close to 1940, don't have the date at hand, and likewise for cement.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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WILLIAM PARDIE
is the same car that Gene Diemling did in MR back in tghe 70's. This thread reminded me that I have never upgraded the rtrucks on this car. Doen anyone know what Tahoe Models truck is correct for this car? Thanks in advance: Bill Pardie
On Oct 14, 2015, at 5:14 PM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] wrote:
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RICH CHAPIN
The Lehigh Valley May 1932 ORER lists 30 hoppers (#s50000 to 50029) as “Special Type, Steel Hatchway Roof, Hop. Bot.” with LO designation. The series shows up in July 1931 ORER as “Cement, Steel, Hopper Bottom” as #50000 thru 50017, but have no designation.
Rich Chapin
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Ed
According to the "CNJ/LV Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment" by Craig Bossler, the LVRR converted 50 quad hoppers into covered hoppers in the 50100 series. A photo of 50122 on page 81 seems to show a 1937 build date but it is very difficult to read.
Ed Robinson
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np328
The following does not address your question directly however provides a transition date, though this itself is "an exception" taking in to account the prior admonishments on this list about exceptions. From Railway Age March 4, 1944 - Page 476 Vol 116 in the bound issues is found " Cement cars are being used by the CN&W for grain hauling - in an emergency measure". Jim Dick - St. Paul , MN
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