USRA


paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.
Paul 




Sent from Samsung mobile


david ellzey
 

Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)
Dave
 


From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] USRA

 
I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.
Paul 




Sent from Samsung mobile



Eric Hansmann
 

David,

There are a couple things to understand about the Accurail or even the Tichy
USRA box car models.

First, I thought you mentioned a late 1950s era for your focus. A ruling set for
January 1, 1953 banned freight cars with the older K brake systems from
interchange. This affected lots of freight cars built before 1930 that had not
been upgraded with the AB brake system. Many railroads scrapped the older
equipment or moved it to maintenance service.

Second, in terms of sheer numbers, the prototypes of the USRA single sheathed
cars and those that followed a similar design (whether the Canadian cars the
Accurail model reflects or other 1920s cars) were a small percentage of the
North American box car fleet, even when new. There were 25,000 USRA single
sheathed box cars built and assigned by the USRA. Even if that figure is doubled
with all the similar cars that came afterwards, I estimate the overall quantity
is not even 10% of the 1920s North American box car fleet. If we look at your
later era and take equipment retirement and rebuilding into different looking
cars as factors, then that percentage is probably less that 3%.

Third, railroads had been updating their freight car fleet with steel sheathed
box cars since the late 1930s. Marty mentioned the CN numbers in another post.
After WW2, the single and double-sheathed box car fleets began dwindling as
newer steel sheathed cars came into service. The newer cars had greater cubic
capacity and required less maintenance. If you review yard images from the
mid-1950s, wood sheathed box cars are less numerous than in a similar image
taken a decade previous.

I like the Accurail models. I model 1926 and have a few prototypes that can be
done with some work on the Accurail shell. I don't plan to use more than five
but these will not look alike as one will have a different roof and underframe,
and at least one will have an extra half door added for automobile hauling
service. Currently here are several in use on my Wheeling Freight Terminal as
they are great for the monthly op sessions and to hold a spot for era-specific
freight cars that come off the bench and through the paint shop.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/

On October 27, 2015 at 7:13 AM "david ellzey davidellzey1@... [STMFC]"
<STMFC@...> wrote:


Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't
have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is
based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site
called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one
contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly
regarded among prototype modelers:-)Dave
  From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
<STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] USRA

  I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they
are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.Paul 


Armand Premo
 


Which begs the question;How many double sheathed cars were still around in the 50s? Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
To: stmfc
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA

 

David,

There are a couple things to understand about the Accurail or even the Tichy
USRA box car models.

First, I thought you mentioned a late 1950s era for your focus. A ruling set for
January 1, 1953 banned freight cars with the older K brake systems from
interchange. This affected lots of freight cars built before 1930 that had not
been upgraded with the AB brake system. Many railroads scrapped the older
equipment or moved it to maintenance service.

Second, in terms of sheer numbers, the prototypes of the USRA single sheathed
cars and those that followed a similar design (whether the Canadian cars the
Accurail model reflects or other 1920s cars) were a small percentage of the
North American box car fleet, even when new. There were 25,000 USRA single
sheathed box cars built and assigned by the USRA. Even if that figure is doubled
with all the similar cars that came afterwards, I estimate the overall quantity
is not even 10% of the 1920s North American box car fleet. If we look at your
later era and take equipment retirement and rebuilding into different looking
cars as factors, then that percentage is probably less that 3%.

Third, railroads had been updating their freight car fleet with steel sheathed
box cars since the late 1930s. Marty mentioned the CN numbers in another post.
After WW2, the single and double-sheathed box car fleets began dwindling as
newer steel sheathed cars came into service. The newer cars had greater cubic
capacity and required less maintenance. If you review yard images from the
mid-1950s, wood sheathed box cars are less numerous than in a similar image
taken a decade previous.

I like the Accurail models. I model 1926 and have a few prototypes that can be
done with some work on the Accurail shell. I don't plan to use more than five
but these will not look alike as one will have a different roof and underframe,
and at least one will have an extra half door added for automobile hauling
service. Currently here are several in use on my Wheeling Freight Terminal as
they are great for the monthly op sessions and to hold a spot for era-specific
freight cars that come off the bench and through the paint shop.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/

> On October 27, 2015 at 7:13 AM "david ellzey davidellzey1@... [STMFC]"
> >
>
> Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't
> have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is
> based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site
> called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one
> contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly
> regarded among prototype modelers:-)Dave
>   From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
>
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:13 AM
> Subject: [STMFC] USRA
>
>   I see you got some suggestions from Tony Thompson and Eric Hannsman they
> are both very knowledgeable did anyone contact you off line?.Paul 
>

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4842 / Virus Database: 4447/10898 - Release Date: 10/27/15


Marty McGuirk
 

Dave Ellzy wrote:

"Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)
Dave"

I don't think anyone ever said anything of the sort. Your original question was about using the Accurail car to model USRA prototype cars, specifically the SP.
There are a few things some folks don't like about the Accurail car (the excessive wood grain as Bill mentioned and the molded on grabs/ladders another) but there's nothing wrong with the basic bones of the model. I have at least 6 or 8 of them on the layout - but I model a CN subsidiary in a slightly earlier era than you.
I'd surmise the feedback you received as "There are better options for modeling the USRA cars (and clones)." And that includes feedback from Dennis, who's rumored to know a thing or two about Accurail freight cars) who mentioned the CB&Q/C&S/FW&D cars as a possibility. But those aren't USRA cars, or even "clones."
Marty McGuirk


Jim Betz
 

Armand and All,

The GN built 900 40' box cars out of plywood in '45 (500) and '47 (400). Most/all
of those would still be around in the late 50's under discussion ... and probably
showing up in Texas/Louisiana hauling forest products from time to time. And
another 1000 of them in '54 and '55. And 100 more in '47. Go to the

http://www.greatnorthernempire.net

site for details on number series. (There are others - I just listed the ones built
later on.) These are not USRA design - but they are relevant to the O.P.s desire
(need?) to have 'correct' cars on his layout.
So that puts at least 2000 cars in interchange service in the late 50's. *G* (*GN*)

I've heard it claimed (but never 100% verified) that one of the reasons GN used
plywood was to "buy product from their customers" in order to solidify the
relationship with them. Whether that is true or speculation is unknown (to me).

****

I believe that there were many sources for "USRA design" cars that were not
"built by the USRA". The designs were published and used (and modified - some
times only slightly and some times heavily) by many car builders.
GN was not alone in terms of having a car construction shop in addition to their
car repair shops.
And, as has been mentioned already, "rebuilding freight cars" was done by
almost all of the RRs from time to time ... so a car that starts out with some
major spotting/identifying features is often considerably different later in its
life - some times that included being renumbered/some times not.
- Jim B.


Tim O'Connor
 

The SP (Pacific Lines) owned no USRA double sheathed box cars, but the
Northwestern Pacific (SP subsidiary) did own some, and operated them as
late as 1960. Ted Schnepf even had an NWP Accurail kit in his vendor display.

Westerfield produced a model (#3858) for the late-era NWP car.

Tim O'

Dave Ellzy wrote:
"Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)
Dave"

I don't think anyone ever said anything of the sort. Your original question was about using the Accurail car to model USRA prototype cars, specifically the SP.
There are a few things some folks don't like about the Accurail car (the excessive wood grain as Bill mentioned and the molded on grabs/ladders another) but there's nothing wrong with the basic bones of the model. I have at least 6 or 8 of them on the layout - but I model a CN subsidiary in a slightly earlier era than you.
I'd surmise the feedback you received as "There are better options for modeling the USRA cars (and clones)." And that includes feedback from Dennis, who's rumored to know a thing or two about Accurail freight cars) who mentioned the CB&Q/C&S/FW&D cars as a possibility. But those aren't USRA cars, or even "clones."
Marty McGuirk


Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

The SP (Pacific Lines) owned no USRA double sheathed box cars, but the
Northwestern Pacific (SP subsidiary) did own some, and operated them as
late as 1960. Ted Schnepf even had an NWP Accurail kit in his vendor display.

Westerfield produced a model (#3858) for the late-era NWP car.


     TIm is quite right, but the NWP cars only numbered 100, and judging by the numbers you see in on-line NWP photos, most of them stayed near home. I model the SP Coast Line, so feel okay having one or two (but NOT the NWP Overnight cars, which did NOT go offline). Most of the U.S. would rarely if ever see an NWP box car.
Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Ray Breyer
 

Which begs the question; How many double sheathed cars were still around in the 50s?
Armand Premo

Hi Armand,

"The Fifties" is a ten year long span of time with a VERY significant marker stuck in about one third of the way through. Are you talking before or after the K-brake ban? Because the numbers will look VERY different.

(Roughly, and ONLY going off of memory here, there were around 40,000 double sheathed cars in 1950, and less than 4,000, mostly all ventilated boxcars or shortline cars, in 1959).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


 

Armand – Almost all freight cars were heavily used in WW2.  The oldest were replaced first in the late 1940s – 36’ cars, truss rod cars.  The 1950s saw virtually all USRA cars except the ones upgraded with steel sides gone by 1960.  1953 seems to be the turning point for most roads. – Al Westerfield
 

Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA
 
 

>>Which begs the question; How many double sheathed cars were still around in the 50s?
>>Armand Premo


Hi Armand,

"The Fifties" is a ten year long span of time with a VERY significant marker stuck in about one third of the way through. Are you talking before or after the K-brake ban? Because the numbers will look VERY different.

(Roughly, and ONLY going off of memory here, there were around 40,000 double sheathed cars in 1950, and less than 4,000, mostly all ventilated boxcars or shortline cars, in 1959).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Armand Premo
 

Ray,The question was rhetorical.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA

 

>>Which begs the question; How many double sheathed cars were still around in the 50s?
>>Armand Premo


Hi Armand,

"The Fifties" is a ten year long span of time with a VERY significant marker stuck in about one third of the way through. Are you talking before or after the K-brake ban? Because the numbers will look VERY different.

(Roughly, and ONLY going off of memory here, there were around 40,000 double sheathed cars in 1950, and less than 4,000, mostly all ventilated boxcars or shortline cars, in 1959).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4842 / Virus Database: 4447/10898 - Release Date: 10/27/15


John Barry
 

Tony,

Did the NWP overnight cars originate in San Francisco or Tiburon.  If the former, they would have most likely made that journey across the bay on the Santa Fe's Navy. Sort of but not really offline.
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 12:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: USRA

 
Tim O'Connor wrote:

 
The SP (Pacific Lines) owned no USRA double sheathed box cars, but the
Northwestern Pacific (SP subsidiary) did own some, and operated them as
late as 1960. Ted Schnepf even had an NWP Accurail kit in his vendor display.

Westerfield produced a model (#3858) for the late-era NWP car.

     TIm is quite right, but the NWP cars only numbered 100, and judging by the numbers you see in on-line NWP photos, most of them stayed near home. I model the SP Coast Line, so feel okay having one or two (but NOT the NWP Overnight cars, which did NOT go offline). Most of the U.S. would rarely if ever see an NWP box car.
Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Tony Thompson
 

John Barry wrote:

 
Did the NWP overnight cars originate in San Francisco or Tiburon.  If the former, they would have most likely made that journey across the bay on the Santa Fe's Navy. Sort of but not really offline.

    Predominantly in TIburon, and accepted additional LCL from San Rafael etc. on the way north. Southward, at least some Overnight cars were deadheaded empty. We do know that some of the cars crossed the Bay on car floats and were loaded in San Francisco, so if you model the State Belt, you can model these off-line. There is to date NO evidence of them anywhere else beyond the NWP. Of course if anyone has that evidence, I'd love to see it.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





david ellzey
 

Thanks to all who contributed valuable information towards my USRA & USRA clone SS boxcar questions. It is much appreciated. Now would inverted Dreadnaught boxcar ends be available?
Dave
 


From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: USRA

 

The SP (Pacific Lines) owned no USRA double sheathed box cars, but the
Northwestern Pacific (SP subsidiary) did own some, and operated them as
late as 1960. Ted Schnepf even had an NWP Accurail kit in his vendor display.

Westerfield produced a model (#3858) for the late-era NWP car.

Tim O'

>Dave Ellzy wrote:
>"Yes I got some good suggestions from both of them. Tony T. said the SP didn't have anything similar to the accurail car. Eric H. said the accurail car is based on a Canadian car mostly. He sent some very handy information a site called trainlife.com. There is an article on the accurail boxcar. No one contacted me offline. I get the impression that the accurail car is not highly regarded among prototype modelers:-)
>Dave"
>
>I don't think anyone ever said anything of the sort. Your original question was about using the Accurail car to model USRA prototype cars, specifically the SP.
>There are a few things some folks don't like about the Accurail car (the excessive wood grain as Bill mentioned and the molded on grabs/ladders another) but there's nothing wrong with the basic bones of the model. I have at least 6 or 8 of them on the layout - but I model a CN subsidiary in a slightly earlier era than you.
>I'd surmise the feedback you received as "There are better options for modeling the USRA cars (and clones)." And that includes feedback from Dennis, who's rumored to know a thing or two about Accurail freight cars) who mentioned the CB&Q/C&S/FW&D cars as a possibility. But those aren't USRA cars, or even "clones."
>Marty McGuirk




John Barry
 

Tony,

I'm modelling Santa Fe's car float operations, so this is confirmation enough.  They wouldn't be off the float other than re-loading at Richmond or Alameda.  Some nice local flavor for my ops.    They will be through cars between SF and Tiburon.  
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: USRA

 
John Barry wrote:

 
Did the NWP overnight cars originate in San Francisco or Tiburon.  If the former, they would have most likely made that journey across the bay on the Santa Fe's Navy. Sort of but not really offline.

    Predominantly in TIburon, and accepted additional LCL from San Rafael etc. on the way north. Southward, at least some Overnight cars were deadheaded empty. We do know that some of the cars crossed the Bay on car floats and were loaded in San Francisco, so if you model the State Belt, you can model these off-line. There is to date NO evidence of them anywhere else beyond the NWP. Of course if anyone has that evidence, I'd love to see it.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history