MKT War Emergency box car?


Tim O'Connor
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121799385302

this surprised me -- is this really a War Emergency box car, with a
fishbelly underframe? anyone know the story of this car?

Tim O'Connor


Jack Mullen
 

Tim,
This one has me wondering too. Notice also that the side sill is characteristic of older design, a structural member, probably channel, below the level of the floor.   I know little about Katy equipment, but I know they had steel auto cars built in the late '30s which look like AAR design except for the underframe: fishbelly center sills and side sills below the floor. A photo of one was in Ted's sale a few weeks ago. So maybe Katy just liked fishbelly UFs and was conservative enough to keep using them after the general adoption of the AAR UF design. The car is stenciled with a BLT date, not REBLT.

Is it a War Emergency design?  The blt date is ?-43. It's sure not an AAR recommended WE design, but quite a few RRs adopted their own WE designs. The ends being wider than the side sheathing suggests that this is basically a steel car design adapted for composite sides.  So yeah, I'd call it a WE design, unless somebody knows some history that refutes my reasoning.
 

Jack Mullen


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Jack and Tim,

According to my 1958 ORER 79001-79157 had a 10'6" IH and 48 cars were still in service. While the height is right for a WE car, the rest of the details are dodgy. Nor are any MKT cars listed in Richard Hendrickson's definitive articles on WE cars in the August and September 1994 MAINLINE MODELER articles.

I agree the car is older. Too bad we can't see the ends.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff



On 10/31/15 1:02 AM, jack.f.mullen@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Tim,

This one has me wondering too. Notice also that the side sill is characteristic of older design, a structural member, probably channel, below the level of the floor.   I know little about Katy equipment, but I know they had steel auto cars built in the late '30s which look like AAR design except for the underframe: fishbelly center sills and side sills below the floor. A photo of one was in Ted's sale a few weeks ago. So maybe Katy just liked fishbelly UFs and was conservative enough to keep using them after the general adoption of the AAR UF design. The car is stenciled with a BLT date, not REBLT.

Is it a War Emergency design?  The blt date is ?-43. It's sure not an AAR recommended WE design, but quite a few RRs adopted their own WE designs. The ends being wider than the side sheathing suggests that this is basically a steel car design adapted for composite sides.  So yeah, I'd call it a WE design, unless somebody knows some history that refutes my reasoning.
 

Jack Mullen


Scott H. Haycock
 

Apparently, they are Emergency Box Cars.

According to RPC 19,  They were built on surplus 40' fish-belly reefer underframes. Curiously, while the article lists them on the Roster page, (pg.43), there are no photos.

On Page 19, however, some details about these car ar noted.

The new bodies were built on surplus 1923 vintage frames and trucks (40 ton) from G.A.R.X. 52001-52200 wood-sheathed reefers (General American lot 2652).

These rebuilt cars had 6' Youngstown Corrugated Steel doors with Camel fixtures, 5-5 Dreadnaught steel ends, S.R.E.M. Co. riveted roofs, Klasing Power Hand Brakes, and the original (to the reefers) Andrews trucks.

In the late 40s, and early 50s, these cars cars were repainted into the familiar yellow with black lettering scheme.

Attention Greg Martin- This looks like an SnT project to me ...


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantment


 

Jack and Tim,

According to my 1958 ORER 79001-79157 had a 10'6" IH and 48 cars were still in service. While the height is right for a WE car, the rest of the details are dodgy. Nor are any MKT cars listed in Richard Hendrickson's definitive articles on WE cars in the August and September 1994 MAINLINE MODELER articles.

I agree the car is older. Too bad we can't see the ends.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff








Scott H. Haycock
 

Some differences that stand out on the photo of this car versus all the photos in RPC 19, are the lack of diagonal strap braces on the end panels, the grab ladders, and the lack of any tabs on the side sills.

I hate that word-"Tabs". Is there a more accurate word for this detail?

Another detail is the prominent car number on the left side of the center sill, leading one to believe that this photo was taken soon after the repaint to the yellow scheme. A photo of these cars in the original (presumably BCR, or an Oxide brown) would add immeasurably to the story of these cars. 



Scott Haycock


 

Apparently, they are Emergency Box Cars.

According to RPC 19,  They were built on surplus 40' fish-belly reefer underframes. Curiously, while the article lists them on the Roster page, (pg.43), there are no photos.

On Page 19, however, some details about these car are noted.

The new bodies were built on surplus 1923 vintage frames and trucks (40 ton) from G.A.R.X. 52001-52200 wood-sheathed reefers (General American lot 2652).

These rebuilt cars had 6' Youngstown Corrugated Steel doors with Camel fixtures, 5-5 Dreadnaught steel ends, S.R.E.M. Co. riveted roofs, Klasing Power Hand Brakes, and the original (to the reefers) Andrews trucks.

In the late 40s, and early 50s, these cars cars were repainted into the familiar yellow with black lettering scheme.

Attention Greg Martin- This looks like an SnT project to me ...


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantment



Todd Horton
 

"Attention Greg Martin- This looks like an SnT project to me ..."

I was thinking the same thing
 
Todd Horton


From: "'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC]"
To: Steam Era Freight Cars
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MKT War Emergency box car?

 
Apparently, they are Emergency Box Cars.

According to RPC 19,  They were built on surplus 40' fish-belly reefer underframes. Curiously, while the article lists them on the Roster page, (pg.43), there are no photos.

On Page 19, however, some details about these car ar noted.

The new bodies were built on surplus 1923 vintage frames and trucks (40 ton) from G.A.R.X. 52001-52200 wood-sheathed reefers (General American lot 2652).

These rebuilt cars had 6' Youngstown Corrugated Steel doors with Camel fixtures, 5-5 Dreadnaught steel ends, S.R.E.M. Co. riveted roofs, Klasing Power Hand Brakes, and the original (to the reefers) Andrews trucks.

In the late 40s, and early 50s, these cars cars were repainted into the familiar yellow with black lettering scheme.

Attention Greg Martin- This looks like an SnT project to me ...


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantment


 
Jack and Tim,

According to my 1958 ORER 79001-79157 had a 10'6" IH and 48 cars were still in service. While the height is right for a WE car, the rest of the details are dodgy. Nor are any MKT cars listed in Richard Hendrickson's definitive articles on WE cars in the August and September 1994 MAINLINE MODELER articles.

I agree the car is older. Too bad we can't see the ends.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff










Scott H. Haycock
 

The main difficulty that I see is the removal of the diagonal straps and the re-scribing of the sheathing boards. While tedious, I doubt it would be too difficult for anyone used to removing cast-on details (I'm thinking the 2013 Hormel reefer).

Ted Cullota probably could supply the info on decals- he's done 1/2 the work, or more for his MKT SS boxcar models.

And where have we seen that fish-belly underframe before?



Scott Haycock


 

"Attention Greg Martin- This looks like an SnT project to me ..."

I was thinking the same thing
 
Todd Horton



Barry Bennett
 

I take it Scott is assuming that you can pop an Intermountain body on an Accurail underframe and nearly all is done, but visually comparing an undec photo from the IM site and that photo of the MKT car it seems to my eye that the end panels of the sides of the MKT car are narrower than the IM. 

Is it possible that the side framing was modified to fit existing framing of the donor underframes rather than follow the WE standard.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 10:50 AM, 'Scott H. Haycock ' shhaycock@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

The main difficulty that I see is the removal of the diagonal straps and the re-scribing of the sheathing boards. While tedious, I doubt it would be too difficult for anyone used to removing cast-on details (I'm thinking the 2013 Hormel reefer).

Ted Cullota probably could supply the info on decals- he's done 1/2 the work, or more for his MKT SS boxcar models.

And where have we seen that fish-belly underframe before?



Scott Haycock


 

"Attention Greg Martin- This looks like an SnT project to me ..."

I was thinking the same thing
 
Todd Horton




Scott H. Haycock
 

Good eye, Barry

I took a micrometer to one of the IM models I have, and indeed, the end panels are wider than the rest. Measuring the MKT photo, on the computer screen, one gets the impression that all the panels are the same size.

If you peruse the prototype-specific information and photos in RPC 19, you will find quite a number of variations in these cars. The IM model represents only 3 or 4 of the prototypes, reasonably accurately.  

It is impossible to get an ultra accurate model of anything by the process of kitbashing. The point is to get as close as possible, using available components, some scratchbuilding, and a whole lot of ingenuity.

If you're not already a member, I urge you to join the Yahoo ShakeNTake group.

This photo was just posted yesterday by a modeler looking for more information about the history of the car in the photo. Now we're talking about how to build a credible model of the car. Who knows what the next day or two may bring!

Scott Haycock  


 

I take it Scott is assuming that you can pop an Intermountain body on an Accurail underframe and nearly all is done, but visually comparing an undec photo from the IM site and that photo of the MKT car it seems to my eye that the end panels of the sides of the MKT car are narrower than the IM. 

Is it possible that the side framing was modified to fit existing framing of the donor underframes rather than follow the WE standard.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England.


Bill Welch
 

Here is the car in BCR: MKT 79120 WE copy.JPG

 

This is from Richard via Ted or the other way around. IIRC the info with the yellow Ebay offering says is is a Builder's Photo, meaning the yellow preceded the BCR. Red or Yellow, either fits our time period.

It would be a great "S 'n T" as would the Wabash version if Greg could get InterMountain to cooperate.




Scott H. Haycock
 


 

Barry Wrote:
Is it possible that the side framing was modified to fit existing framing of the donor underframes rather than follow the WE standard.

Quite right!

Engineering concepts require that the vertical side posts align with the underframe crossbearers.

Next up, would be to find information on the original reefers that donated their underframes to these cars: GARX 52001-52200, General American Lot 2652.

The first member of this list, who comes to mind, that might be able to help with this is Gene Green (I hate to put you on the spot, but...). These cars also had Klasing brakes! 




Scott Haycock


Scott H. Haycock
 



 Bill Wrote:

"as would the Wabash version if Greg could get InterMountain to cooperate."



 Bill, the Wabash car Is in my pipeline.

Mark Vaughn has the decals for this car, as well as a detailed set of info pages in his Wabash SS box car set.

The IM undec. kit is where to start, if you can find one!  They have a RTR version, "available at you local dealer",  but I can't verify the lettering.

The Dec. 1997 issue of MM has an article by Pat Boyle on the Wabash version of the Emergency Box Car( I've been told that the inclusion of the word "War" is incorrect).

These cars had reinforcing plates added to the top and bottom intersections of the side bracing at some point, giving them a unique appearance for these cars. They were also unique in that they had full, bolster-to-bolster sidesill tabs ( Someone please come up with a better word!).

Scott Haycock

PS- What we need is a supply of undecorated models, the next time IM does a run of these cars- I've been studying these  cars for about a year, since I acquired 3 undecorated kits, and I've responded at least 4 times to people on various lists who want to build models- including the GN plywood sheathed versions- which can also be built from IM models!  





Scott H. Haycock
 



 

Here is the car in BCR: MKT 79120 WE copy.JPG

 

This is from Richard via Ted or the other way around. IIRC the info with the yellow Ebay offering says is is a Builder's Photo, meaning the yellow preceded the BCR. Red or Yellow, either fits our time period.

Bill, a great photo!

It's obvious though, that this is not a builders photo!

The end verifies the Emergency Box Car lineage. According to the info in RPC 19, the yellow w/ black lettering was a late 1940s/1950s repaint. This car appears to be in a rather ragged original paint job.

One thing I find unusual, for any box car, is what appears to be a step of some sort, under the door! Have you any idea of it's purpose?

I see no lettered evidence of this car being in company service, but the lettering " Be Careful" at both ends seems to imply otherwise.

Another curiosity is that the end lettering is almost centered under the running board, instead of out toward the side.

_



Scott Haycock


Bill Welch
 

Scott, I did not say this is a builder's photo. The photo of the yellow car in Ted's auction is a builder's photo.

Bill Welch


mopacfirst
 

The most likely explanation for this car's existence is that it is in work service.  The step under the door was a pretty common addition to ordinary boxcars when they got demoted, and I consider it prima facie evidence of being in work service when it's this kind of step that projects outward.

Notice also that the boards in the various tackboard positions have loosened and are about to fall out.

As for 'BE CAREFUL', that was a normal stencil on MKT boxcars in the postwar era.

The scene is undoubtedly Dallas, just north of Union Station near the junction between DUT trackage and MKT trackage heading north.  I don't know downtown Dallas history that well in terms of what's being built in the background of the photo, but I would throw out a guess of about 1960.

Ron Merrick


Tim O'Connor
 


I think Bill's photo is much later -- 1970's. There were still 27 of these
cars in revenue service in 1965, and 3 are still listed as late as 1972.

Tim O'Connor



The scene is undoubtedly Dallas, just north of Union Station near the junction between DUT trackage and MKT trackage heading north.  I don't know downtown Dallas history that well in terms of what's being built in the background of the photo, but I would throw out a guess of about 1960.

Ron Merrick


mopacfirst
 

Replying to my own post -- the building in the background, with the billboard Interstate - Trinity Warehouse, is at 301 N. Market in Dallas.  On the south side of the building is Pacific Avenue, which had the T&P main line on it until the track relocation on account of the construction of Union Station, and now has DART tracks on it.

During the time at the end of this list, and when the photo was taken, of course, it was assumed by all that there would never again be streetcar tracks in downtown Dallas.  But, what was there then and is still there now is an interlocking tower which would have been just out of view to the left of the photo.

Ron Merrick
not from Dallas


Allan Smith
 

I have conducters lists for the Sierra RR in 1952. MKT 79040 is listed as a car coming empty onto the Sierra and going out loaded with lumber in 1952. So if anyone wants to model this series of  car at least one car was active in interchange in 1952.

Al Smith
Sonra Ca


Greg Martin
 

Bill,
 
Yes I will look at this seriously as a possible SHAKE_N_TAKE build in the future. INTERMOUNTAIN...hmmm that could be tough.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
Bill Welch writes:

 

Here is the car in BCR: MKT 79120 WE copy.JPG

 

This is from Richard via Ted or the other way around. IIRC the info with the yellow Ebay offering says is is a Builder's Photo, meaning the yellow preceded the BCR. Red or Yellow, either fits our time period.

It would be a great "S 'n T" as would the Wabash version if Greg could get InterMountain to cooperate.


< br>


Tim O'Connor
 

Greg

It seems like the underframe and sides would have to be scratch built or resin cast. Would
be a very neat car though and good for 1940's to early 70's modeling.

Tim


Bill,
 
Yes I will look at this seriously as a possible SHAKE_N_TAKE build in the future. INTERMOUNTAIN...hmmm that could be tough.
 
Greg Martin