Topics

lead shot for car weighting

Bud Rindfleisch
 

    I am looking for someone who might be willing to split a couple of pounds of lead shot for weighting hollow center sills or such. When I last checked this stuff can be purchased in 25 lb boxes for shotgun shell reloading. I don't need 25 lbs! The only smaller quantities I've seen are from Detail associates or Details West (I forget) called "pourable lead". Not enough to do the number of cars I need it for and quite expensive in this small quantity. I could probably use about 3-4 lbs to last a lifetime.

      Bud Rindfleisch

Benjamin Hom
 

Bud Rindfleisch asked:
"I am looking for someone who might be willing to split a couple of pounds of lead shot for weighting hollow center sills or such. When I last checked this stuff can be purchased in 25 lb boxes for shotgun shell reloading. I don't need 25 lbs! The only smaller quantities I've seen are from Detail associates or Details West (I forget) called "pourable lead". Not enough to do the number of cars I need it for and quite expensive in this small quantity. I could probably use about 3-4 lbs to last a lifetime."

McMaster-Carr sells lead shot for $37.43 per 5 lb package.
Ben Hom

SUVCWORR@...
 

If you go to a local sportsman's club you will likely find someone who loads their own shells and be willing to sell you a few pounds of shot.  

Rich Orr

    I am looking for someone who might be willing to split a couple of pounds of lead shot for weighting hollow center sills or such. When I last checked this stuff can be purchased in 25 lb boxes for shotgun shell reloading. I don't need 25 lbs! The only smaller quantities I've seen are from Detail associates or Details West (I forget) called "pourable lead". Not enough to do the number of cars I need it for and quite expensive in this small quantity. I could probably use about 3-4 lbs to last a lifetime.
      Bud Rindfleisch


Dave Sarther
 

Bud,
 
You might also consider making a visit to a local roofing company and enquire about some scrap pieces of lead.  At one time Home Depot and other big box home stores sold lead shields/covers for vent stacks that went through a house roof.  I have not walked the HD plumbing/roofing departments lately, but I'd give it a quick walk through and I'll bet you can find something there.   Lead sheets are common for roofers who are creating roof flashing around chimneys and walls alongside a pitched roof.  It is a common material for roofers to have on their trucks.  Occasionally, when I see a local roofer working I'll ask for a scrap piece.  Once I explain that I want to use it a weight for a model railroad car they are more than happy to dig around and find some scrap pieces.  That last way of procuring the material is tax free and as a bonus you don't have to pay for shipping.
 
Later,  Dave Sarther    Tucson, AZ
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Jan 10, 2016 4:52 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] lead shot for car weighting

 
Bud Rindfleisch asked:
"I am looking for someone who might be willing to split a couple of pounds of lead shot for weighting hollow center sills or such. When I last checked this stuff can be purchased in 25 lb boxes for shotgun shell reloading. I don't need 25 lbs! The only smaller quantities I've seen are from Detail associates or Details West (I forget) called "pourable lead". Not enough to do the number of cars I need it for and quite expensive in this small quantity. I could probably use about 3-4 lbs to last a lifetime."

McMaster-Carr sells lead shot for $37.43 per 5 lb package.
Ben Hom

Walter
 

BB's would make a good substitute and they are reasonable.

Lenter Ohrnell

Benjamin Hom
 

Lenter Ohrnell wrote:
"BB's would make a good substitute and they are reasonable."

Reasonably priced, yes, but "good subtitute" is debatable as they're huge (4.5 mm) compared to #9 (2.03 mm) or #10 (1.78 mm) shot. This matters because you can pack more weight in a given volume using smaller shot.


Ben Hom

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, no, Ben.  You can get more weight because lead weighs more per unit of volume than BBs weigh, and with a smaller diameter you can more completely fill a void.  But the volumetric measure of a sphere remains constant regardless of the diameter.

Schuyler

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Droid

mopacfirst
 

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence, but you hit on the important fact at the end of your second sentence.  Spheres of anything, no matter how many lb/cubic inch or whatever measure you choose, will pack more tightly together in a given volume and thus weigh more.  This effect is enhanced when you're talking about a relatively small space in relation to the sphere diameters, such as inside a centersill or between the centersill and the side of the car.

Ron Merrick

Dave Parker
 

I agree with Schuyler, at least from a theoretical standpoint.  If the spheres are all of the same diameter, the densest packing that can be achieved is 0.74, i.e. 74% spheres and 26% airspace.  It doesn't matter if the spheres are atoms or beach-balls, that is as tight as they can fit together (in either cubic or hexagonal close-packing).  There are other regular arrangements that can found in crystal structures that are slightly less "efficient" (e.g., 68%).  This a long-accepted tenet in crystallography, mineralogy, and related fields.  From a practical standpoint, if the space you are trying to fill is small relative to the spheres you are using, it may be difficult to achieve this idealize packing arrangement.   But if you are just choosing between two sizes of birdshot, it should not matter as a general rule. The density of the metal (tungsten versus lead versus steel, etc.) will likely be more influential.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

dahminator68
 

Hello Mr. Rindfleisch: If you are still looking for a few pounds of lead shot, please contact me at westerfieldmodels@....
I have some #9 shot.
Thank you,
Andrew Dahm
westerfieldmodels@...
--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 1/9/16, BlackDiamondRR@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] lead shot for car weighting
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 7:04 AM


 









    I am looking for someone who might be
willing to split a couple of pounds of lead shot for
weighting hollow center sills or such. When I last checked
this stuff can be purchased in 25 lb boxes for shotgun shell
reloading. I don't need 25 lbs! The only smaller
quantities I've seen are from Detail associates or
Details West (I forget) called "pourable lead".
Not enough to do the number of cars I need it for and quite
expensive in this small quantity. I could probably use about
3-4 lbs to last a lifetime.      Bud
Rindfleisch









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dpelwood@...
 

Perhaps no one has offered this as a possible solution, but I have always used tire weights.  Not sure if they are pure lead, but the many that I have are easily cut down to the size needed.  Always readily available when I go to the tire shop, and I have even found them near the gutter when I take my daily walk.
Dan

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

There is one aspect to the size of the shot you are using that
hasn't been mentioned - and that is that the smaller the size
the more likely you are to be able to "fill" the space with a
maximum amount of individual BBs. So smaller - when we
are talking about something like the space between the
frame members on a freight car ... wait for it ... WILL get
more weight. Exaggerated case in point - if the BBs are not
able to fit beside each other they won't 'fit' the space as
well. You end up 'wasting' more space if the BBs are larger.
Smaller BBs also fill in around where brake and other under
car details are attached.

Someone gave a link to MidwayUSA - they have both 5 and
10 pound quantities ... and I even saw 10 pounds of #12 shot
(very tiny) for about $4/pound. I do not know if that price
including shipping or not.

I like using lead shot for car weight - I hold it in place using
Krystal Klear (essentially white glue) - and if I need to (rarely)
I can put some water on it and let it set and it will let go. But
in over a decade I have never had any of the glue let go
without applying water (humidity isn't enough to even soften
it). KK is also nice because it 'flows' around the lead - I put
in a layer of lead and then add KK on top and let it dry ...
repeat as necessary for multiple layers. And KK can be
painted without affecting it ... if you really want to 'hide'
the fact that you added some weight.
I have also used shot and KK to add weight to brass
steam - one of my tricks for that combo is to glue some
to the underside of the cab roof ... in order to balance
the steamer over the center of the drivers (actually just
ahead of center and -never- behind). Many brass steamers
that have derailing problems are easily fixed by getting them
balanced.

My personal standard for car weight is "NMRA RP -plus- 1 oz"
per car. That extra ounce translates to added tracking and the
extra doesn't seem to seriously affect train length. YMMV.
- Jim

Dave Parker
 

Jim and others:

If you read my earlier message carefully, I think that's pretty much what I said.  As long as the BBs are small enough to achieve something close to the idealized packing geometry, you will have added as much weight as you are going to.  Unless the space is very small, going from #9 to #12 shot won't gain you anything.  You'll still be at about 74% of the density of the pure metal (at best).

Regarding the tungsten powder link that Mike Skibbe posted, it seems that the "best" products are a MIX of different particle sizes that, predictably, allow for slightly higher densities.  But the one that seems to be readily available retail only touts a final density of 15 g/cm3, only about 78% that of pure tungsten.  That's the one that is $75 a pound; a bit rich for our purposes perhaps.

Also note that the tungsten shot used in shotgun shells is not pure, but rather a tungsten-steel-nickel alloy.  The densest of these (Hevi Shot) is only about 12 g/cm3, versus lead at 11.1.  The Hevi Shot seems to retail at about $39/lb, which also seems pretty steep given the nominal improvement over lead.

I don't worry about the toxicity of lead.  I keep it out of my mouth (and the cat's).  Its toxicity due to dermal exposure is very low.  Overall, it's much more of a problem in children ages 6 and under whose brains are still developing; ours are all heading in the other direction.  YMMV of course.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




Douglas Harding
 

All this talk about sphere size, density and actual size of BBs reminds me of an old physics experiment that has to do with filling a given space.

The teacher places a container on the table and box of rocks. He pours the rocks into the container to the top and asks the class if I it is full. The class says yes.

The teacher then takes a box of pebbles and proceeds to pour them over the rocks in the same container, and then asks the class if the container is full. Of course they say yes.

The teacher then takes a box of sand and pours the sand into the same container that has already been filled twice, once with rocks and again with rocks and pebbles. He asks the class if the container is full and they say yes.

The teacher asks again and the class confirms the container is full it cannot hold any more, where upon the teacher takes a glass of water and pours it into the container until the water reaches the top.

So let’s review: rocks followed by pebbles, followed by sand, followed by water. Each time the container is filled even thought it was thought to be full.

 

The lesson, start with BBs, then pour in lead shot, followed by tungsten dust. The fill the voids with liquid, ie glue.

 

Or do what I do, purchase a box of stick on weights from the local tire dealer. They come in both ¼ and ½ oz sizes and are easy to cut into even smaller size. Far cheaper.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

spsalso
 

Doug,


In the lesson, why would you use BBs?  They're steel.



Ed


Edward Sutorik

Douglas Harding
 

Ed I mentioned BBs because they had been mentioned in the thread and are easily obtainable. They were the common weight used by many years ago, I still have a package of BBs in my modeling stash. Eliminate them from the equation if you don’t wish to use them.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org