The History of Shipping Bulk Cement
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Hi all,
This thread was born as "Covered Hoppers - for Cement". Although there have been a few posts on the referenced thread this part of my question has gone essentially unanswered ... What I'm looking for is the kind of -general- historical information that covers questions such as 1) When were cement hoppers commonly in use (as opposed to the earliest experiments - which I know about )? 2) Was I wrong in my general statements about how far -most- bulk cement was moved in covered hoppers? All - I am not talking about concrete - I'm interested in the bulk cement hauls (before, during, and after the transition to using 'dedicated service' covered hoppers). At least one thing I learned from the prior thread was about the use of "bulk containers in gons" in the early days. Thanks for that detail/piece of information. - Jim B.
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Tony Thompson
Jim Betz wrote:
No. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Ray Breyer
Common? Mid to late 1930s. The AMC roads were buying them as-needed to cover increased concrete production for WPA projects all over the Great Lakes region. They were also converting plain hoppers into LOs for the same traffic. The Nickel Plate started converting USRA twins into covered hoppers, and by 1936 had converted 40 of them to dry cement cars (and another 19 for dolomite or soda ash). They bought 50 new LOs in 1937 and 1939 for cement service. The W&LE bought 13 LOs new for cement service in 1937. The C&O and PM did the same thing, but I don't have those numbers in front of me. Several Midwestern roads, especially the IC and Rock Island, also bought new ACF-built covered hoppers for cement service before WWII. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Jim,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
There were wooden covered hoppers as early as the 1890s, and special steel cars in the 1920s. Checked my Gregg Cyclopedias: Greenville built small 50-ton hoppers for the Erie in 1934. The PRR H30 car dates from around 1935, as does the B&O N31. There are some other cars that date from the late 1930s like some home-built WM cars from 1937. I see NYC Enterprise cars from 1939, L&NE drop-frame cars from 1938 and the NKP bought AC&F 70-ton cars in 1939. That seems like the watershed year. Does this help? Yours Aye, Garth Groff
On 3/3/16 2:03 PM, jimbetz
jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:
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Jim here is the M&StL cement hopper purchase history. 1940 buy-new 10 cov hoppers 70051 to 70069 29'-3" 140,000 cement service GA 1947 buy-new 50 cov hoppers 70101 to 70199 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S 1955 buy-new 40 cov hoppers 70201 to 70279 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S 1956 buy-new 50 cov hoppers 70301 to 70399 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S 1957 buy-new 100 cov hoppers 70401 to 70599 29'-3" 140,000 cement service P-S
As you can an early purchase let to major purchase after WWII, then major purchases in the mid 50’s.
The M&StL served two cement plants in Mason City IA, most production going north into Minnesota. Minnesota being one of the few states with out deposits suitable for making cement. The M&StL also served two cement plants in Des Moines IA, which served the central Iowa area.
Doug Harding
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mark_landgraf
Prior to the bulk loading of cement, it was shipped in bags in box cars. Many of this countries transcontinental highways, built in the 1920s were built this way. In the 1935-1937 is when dedicated fleet of covered hoppers and cement bulk containers started showing up. NE Pennsylvania was the starting area. These dedicated cars had steep slope sheet - about 80 degrees - that provided easier self unloading of the dense cement. A retrofitted coal hopper - with 120 degree slope sheets - did not self unload very well. Much cement needed to be either vibrated out or manually assisted out of the cars. This why the retro cars did not catch on. The RRs bought the dedicated covered hoppers. Distance shipped - every ton mile costs money. The closest suitable product will be the cheapest. You would only buy a premium product if you needed a premium product, but even then the closest will likely be the cheapest. Mark Landgraf Albany NY Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
Hi all,
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Clark Propst
You need to have the ability to unload and transport a product in house.
Here in the Upper Midwest most cement was sold to lumber yards. First in
barrels, then cloth bags, then paper sacks – still sold at barrel pricing after
the end of this list timeframe. 4 97lb sacks equal 1 barrel of cement. It wasn’t
till batch plants became common did the scales tip toward bulk cement in covered
hoppers. Excluding highway or other large jobs. Other areas of the country may
differ?
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa
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Guy Wilber
Clark wrote:
"4 97lb sacks equal 1 barrel of cement." Clark, 94 Lb. bag is the standard. Regards, Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada
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Clark Propst
Clark wrote: "4 97lb sacks equal 1 barrel of cement." Clark, 94 Lb. bag is the standard. Regards, Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada Yup. My
goof!
Clark
Propst Mason City Iowa
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caboose9792@...
In a message dated 3/3/2016 2:21:09 P.M. Central Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
I got some of the numbers in front of me, at least for the IC covered
hoppers.
From IC equipment list of equipment owned by the railroad or its
subsidiaries, List #1 June 1 1940:
14 on hand 50 ton cars, 62 70 ton cars on order to be received starting in May 1940 All IC owned. List #2 April 1 1945: 14 50 ton cars, 277 70 ton cars All IC owned
Mark Rickert
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rhammill
I have a couple of related things that folks may find interesting, although neither is about cement...
First, from the New Haven Speical Car Order 2-102, February 20, 1950 These are the assignments of the NH owned covered hoppers at the time. I find the second assignment interesting, since the cars originate and terminate on railroads other than the NH. Most of the other assignments also originate off New Haven property. It's an interesting mix of loads other than cement. New Haven owned covered hoppers temporarily assigned as follows: 117000-117002-117003 Sand loading Marion, Mass. to local destinations. 117001-117005-117005-117010-117011-117012-117013 Salt cake loading Jersey City, N.J,, on CNJ to LaTuque, Que., or Berlin N.H. 117004-117014 Manganese ore loading Port Richmond, PA., to New Haven via RDG-CNJ-NH 117006-117008-117009 Hadite loading Jewettville, N.Y., to Framingham via B&O-LV-O&W-NH. .. Second - In response to the question about distance. The closest suitable product will not always be cheapest (although in the case of cement it probably was). There's an interesting section in "American Commodity Flow" by Edward L. Ullman (1957) in the data from the 1% study of waybills regarding Washington State. "In a splendid recent analysis, Roy Sampson shows how Washington and Douglas fir region lumber is able to compete with southern pine in spite of being almost three times as far from market. Production costs of Douglas fir lumber average 15 to 20 percent below southern pine from 1939 to 1952, with the absolute cost spread widening after the war. (This presumably reflects, among other factors, the larger size of the Northwest trees and mills, compared to the diminishing supply of larger stands of the cutover South.) In addition, rates per ton mile are less for the long haul, as is normally the case; but even more significant, southern pine weighs up to 15 percent more per board foot than Douglas fir, and transport rates are quoted on a weight basis, whereas lumber is sold on a board-foot basis. There's a corresponding map that shows that it cost the same to deliver lumber from the Northwest to all states north of southern VA and Kentucky and west of the Mississipi except for eastern TX. The only exception to this line is northern Missouri and Iowa where it's still cheaper to get lumber from the south. So distance isn't the only factor at play for determining cost. Randy Hammill -- Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954 | http://newbritainstation.com ---In STMFC@..., <mark_landgraf@...> wrote : Prior to the bulk loading of cement, it was shipped in bags in box cars. Many of this countries transcontinental highways, built in the 1920s were built this way. In the 1935-1937 is when dedicated fleet of covered hoppers and cement bulk containers started showing up. NE Pennsylvania was the starting area. These dedicated cars had steep slope sheet - about 80 degrees - that provided easier self unloading of the dense cement. A retrofitted coal hopper - with 120 degree slope sheets - did not self unload very well. Much cement needed to be either vibrated out or manually assisted out of the cars. This why the retro cars did not catch on. The RRs bought the dedicated covered hoppers. Distance shipped - every ton mile costs money. The closest suitable product will be the cheapest. You would only buy a premium product if you needed a premium product, but even then the closest will likely be the cheapest. Mark Landgraf Albany NY
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