Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load


rwitt_2000
 


Eric Hansmann
 

That's a nice car, and still new, too! There is no reweigh date as the 1/16 NEW date is to the left of the WT. 


Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX

On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:59 PM, rwitt_2000@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

Now that's a well loaded car.
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"rwitt_2000@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


Ray Breyer
 

More interesting than the load.....

Look at the underframe, then look at the build date, roof, and ends. Then cross-reference the Southern's 150000-153457 car dimensions and visual spotting features against the 153500-159889 and 162000-169769 series.
These cars ARE what the hobby refers to as "SU boxcars". They're just the first generation of them, and have been overlooked by most in the hobby. And that's a shame since these cars tip that boxcar 'type' over the 20,000 built mark.

And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......
 

Ray Breyer 
 Elgin, IL




From: "rwitt_2000@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load


ed_mines
 

That's one fine photo too.


Gold star Bob.


Ed Mines



Tony Thompson
 

Ray Breyer wrote:

 
And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......

    Gosh, I kind of like the green steam locomotives . . . another example, I guess, of YMMV.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Benjamin Hom
 

Ray Breyer wrote:
"Look at the underframe, then look at the build date, roof, and ends. Then cross-reference the Southern's 150000-153457 car dimensions and visual spotting features against the 153500-159889 and 162000-169769 series.
These cars ARE what the hobby refers to as "SU boxcars". They're just the first generation of them, and have been overlooked by most in the hobby. And that's a shame since these cars tip that boxcar 'type' over the 20,000 built mark.

And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm......."

Same reason why you have so few models of New York Central System boxcars - lack of education on the part of the modeling public, exacerbated by a perceived lack of demand for freight cars bearing that road name.



Ben Hom


paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

You can get the Westerfield kits attached photo they are a nice kit.
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile"Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:More interesting than the load.....

Look at the underframe, then look at the build date, roof, and ends. Then cross-reference the Southern's 150000-153457 car dimensions and visual spotting features against the 153500-159889 and 162000-169769 series.
These cars ARE what the hobby refers to as "SU boxcars". They're just the first generation of them, and have been overlooked by most in the hobby. And that's a shame since these cars tip that boxcar 'type' over the 20,000 built mark.

And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......
 

Ray Breyer 
 Elgin, IL



From: "rwitt_2000@yahoo.com [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load



An interesting photo of a box car and load from a y'all railroad.

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/12/345_0003a_p/345_0003a/345_0003a.jpg

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/1...
View on nyx.uky.edu
Preview by Yahoo

Bob Witt






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


gary laakso
 

Its an exceptionally find image.  It appears to have the builder’s stencils still on it and no reporting marks, so what is the “S” under the second “5” signify?
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load
 


gary laakso
 

I noticed after I sent my note that there is a trust plate above the “S”.  I checked the Standard and Poor’s for Southern Equipment Trusts and there are a number of them, including for subsidiary companies like Mobile and Ohio Railroad, whose March 1, 1923 Series “L” Gold Bonds that were fully payable in March, 1936 included “400 40-ton 36-ft. boxcars”.  M&O had another equipment trust from January 1, 1924 that included “1,000 40-ton boxcars”. 
Southern’s equipment trust of Dec. 31, 1927, included “250 40-ton steel underframe box cars.  Locomotives, passenger cars and other freight equipment were included in the equipment trusts.  Perhaps, before 1924, Southern could not obtain access to equipment trusts or the banks did not want the truss rod equipment in trusts since these are a small part of their trust rod boxcar fleet. 
 
The date of the photo is likely 1928.
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 

Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load
 
 

Its an exceptionally find image.  It appears to have the builder’s stencils still on it and no reporting marks, so what is the “S” under the second “5” signify?
 
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
 
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load
 


dahminator68
 


From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load

 
You can get the Westerfield kits attached photo they are a nice kit.
Paul Doggett UK

Sent from Samsung mobile"Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]" wrote:More interesting than the load.....

Look at the underframe, then look at the build date, roof, and ends. Then cross-reference the Southern's 150000-153457 car dimensions and visual spotting features against the 153500-159889 and 162000-169769 series.
These cars ARE what the hobby refers to as "SU boxcars". They're just the first generation of them, and have been overlooked by most in the hobby. And that's a shame since these cars tip that boxcar 'type' over the 20,000 built mark.

And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......
 

Ray Breyer 
 Elgin, IL

From: "rwitt_2000@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load

An interesting photo of a box car and load from a y'all railroad.

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/12/345_0003a_p/345_0003a/345_0003a.jpg

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/1...
View on nyx.uky.edu
Preview by Yahoo

Bob Witt






rwitt_2000
 

This photo is in a collection at the University of Kentucky Library.

Louis Edward Nollau F Series Photographic Print Collection (University of Kentucky)

https://nyx.uky.edu/fa/findingaid/?id=xt7sf7664q86

I have only searched "Box Cars" and found some photos of men icing reefers.

Regards,

Bob Witt


william darnaby
 

Just out of the photo to the right is the Monon’s version of the same car which Andrew offers.



Bill Darnaby



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 3:32 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load








Hello: As Paul said, these are available in HO from Westerfield Models. Please see link below:



Westerfield Models, LLC - 4100 SU 36' DS BOX CAR, SRY, M <https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=99_372> &O, A&D, L&C, MONON








Westerfield Models, LLC - 4100 SU 36' DS BOX CAR, SRY, M&O, A&D, L&C, MONON


HO gauge scale models of double sheathed box cars, wood sided box cars, steam era freight car rolling stock





Thank you,

Andrew Dahm

westerfieldmodels@gmail.com



_____

From: "'paul.doggett2472' paul.doggett2472@yahoo.co.uk [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load





You can get the Westerfield kits attached photo they are a nice kit.
Paul Doggett UK

Sent from Samsung mobile"Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:More interesting than the load.....

Look at the underframe, then look at the build date, roof, and ends. Then cross-reference the Southern's 150000-153457 car dimensions and visual spotting features against the 153500-159889 and 162000-169769 series.
These cars ARE what the hobby refers to as "SU boxcars". They're just the first generation of them, and have been overlooked by most in the hobby. And that's a shame since these cars tip that boxcar 'type' over the 20,000 built mark.

And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......


Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

From: "rwitt_2000@yahoo.com [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load

An interesting photo of a box car and load from a y'all railroad.

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/12/345_0003a_p/345_0003a/345_0003a.jpg

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/1...
View on nyx.uky.edu
Preview by Yahoo

Bob Witt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


riverman_vt@...
 

    Thank you Bob Witt for finding and sharing one of the best photos seen on the STMFC of late and please excuse Ray Breyer's tasteless comments. Al Westerfield must be grinning from ear to ear over the photo.
I built one of his Southern SU cars with the Hutchins end years ago and have one to go with a "T" end around
here someplace as well. Never cared for his two piece roofs but the car is a little jewel and the instructions
for the truss rods with open turnbuckles really make it an impressive looking car model once completed. The only question I have is what IS the load??? It looks like some sort of shook packages for assembling wooden
crates, boxes or bee hives but that is just a wild guess. Does anyone know for certain?

   Thanks again for a GREAT photo, Don Valentine


riverman_vt@...
 

    Looking again at Bob Witt's Southern SU box car photo take a closer look at the
turnbuckles. The two that can be seen have clearly been turned so that the openings
in them face one another and someone has done that purposely to slip a board through
those openings to prevent them from turning at all from the vibrations of rolling over the
railroad. Now there's a detail to model I have not seen before!  

   A closer view also tells me we are looking at boxes of Pilgrim Coffee with something
else in banded cardboard above it. The dimensional lettering and the "Built in 1-1916" 
can be made out clearly but what is the #2 in a circle to the left of the door as well as 
the "s" under "Southern" that someone has already asked about? Wish the smaller 
lettering were legible as well. Is that "Lowes Car Works"? Can' be sure. Lastly there 
are what look to be the flimsiest archbar trucks and bolsters I've ever seen! Is that a 
similar Monon car to the right. What a superb photo!

Cordially, Don Valentine


Eric Hansmann
 

Gary,

 

I would disagree on a 1928 photo date. Zoom in on the photo. I can get to 250% and see the small lettering pretty well.

 

Look to the right of the door and there is a 1916 build date.

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/12/345_0003a_p/345_0003a/345_0003a.jpg

 

 

To the left of the door we can see the WT stencil. That line reads K 11/16 NEW WT. This is the first weighing of the car when it was new. Subsequent reweigh info would not include the NEW here. This is one of the earlier Southern double sheathed 36-foot box cars. The Westerfield models reflect the 1922-26 built cars, which had a slightly larger cubic capacity.

 

The “S” could be an indication of a steel center sill. Note there is something like a trust plate above the “S” in Southern at the fascia.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 2:16 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load

 




I noticed after I sent my note that there is a trust plate above the “S”.  I checked the Standard and Poor’s for Southern Equipment Trusts and there are a number of them, including for subsidiary companies like Mobile and Ohio Railroad, whose March 1, 1923 Series “L” Gold Bonds that were fully payable in March, 1936 included “400 40-ton 36-ft. boxcars”.  M&O had another equipment trust from January 1, 1924 that included “1,000 40-ton boxcars”. 

Southern’s equipment trust of Dec. 31, 1927, included “250 40-ton steel underframe box cars.  Locomotives, passenger cars and other freight equipment were included in the equipment trusts.  Perhaps, before 1924, Southern could not obtain access to equipment trusts or the banks did not want the truss rod equipment in trusts since these are a small part of their trust rod boxcar fleet. 

 

The date of the photo is likely 1928.

 

gary laakso

south of Mike Brock


A&Y Dave in MD
 

 

 

 

And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......

 

 

Ray Breyer 

 Elgin, IL

 

 

Ray,

 

Methinks I detect satire, but just in case…

 

The only gross green are the overly lime freight and excursion scheme-based models with the silly red roofs making them look more like Christmas ornaments than the prototype.  The original Virginia green passenger steam locomotive was beautiful. And for public relations, they had a massive advertising campaign that covered the entire end of this list’s time frame beginning in the late 30’s and ending in the 60’s. I would think that the Southern steam program might be considered quite impressive in terms of public relations too, of course THAT all occurred after this list time period after President Brosnan finished mechanizing and updating everything while alienating everyone.  There are PLENTY of Southern modelers, I know quite a few personally, including a guy who models Southern’s Murphy Branch in the steam era in N scale.  I know two who “roll their own” locomotives.

 

The biggest problem with the Southern for modelers is that everything they did was pretty much unique and rarely shared by other roads…like late steam era truss rod 36’ box cars.  Mostly they had little capital, huge debts as they consolidated a patchwork of rail lines, and they spent most of their money investing in right-of-way and simplifying the ownership issues (the legal history of the Southern Railway begun by Fairfax Harrison in two fat volumes of mergers and acquisitions and trackage rights was supplemented by two more huge fat volumes in the early 50’s to document the corporate streamlining.  The book by Klein describes how the Southern top hats had to grovel before FDR’s administration to get the interest free loans necessary to modernize their steam era freight car fleet with the ’37 cars so well covered by Red Caboose and IMWX with updates from Speedwitch media decals.  Later, in Southern’s diesel era beginning in ’53, which I find amusingly coincides with what many on this list think of as their steam era, the road began innovating in freight car designs following their MoW equipment.

 

So much unique steam stuff makes them tough for the RTR modelers.  Many Southern modelers spend their time researching, kitbashing, and doing their own thing. Or they are diesel modelers dreaming of high hoods forward which doesn’t bring them this way that often.

 

So unique, self-helping, and kitbashing, or off-topic, the Southern modelers don’t appear as a strong commercial market.  And yet the gons, flat cars, and caboose models, in addition to the great Westerfield kits covering every variant of that truss-rod shorty and the off-this-list waffle box and radio-car have sold well.

 

My own layout will have a couple of brass Ks-1 and my own kitbashed #338 class J consolidation pulling lots of Southern SU truss rod cars (mostly used in LCL or merchandise service unlike that photo), what N&W 1934 era-appropriate box and hoppers I can find, the occasional B&O, C&O, ACL, SAL, VGN, HPR&A, WSSB, TC, S&A, GA, and other fine southeastern and Atlantic seaboard freight cars, and a few Schluderberg & Kurdle meat reefers from Baltimore, and the odd tank car of tanning liquid from Richmond (INSX), and the few cars from ATSF, NYC, Pennsy, and others from monster fleets that wandered down to NC’s Piedmont plateau on occasion.  I’m working on analyzing Cap’n H. F. Snow’s conductor books on the Winston-Salem division to get that mix right.

 

I’m betting that new Accurail 36’ car helps me model a few of those wandering cars, though I still need the Westerfields to do the era right.  I got ten of the good grey resin kits to build, plus two 3-cars-in-1 kit sets with the yellow resin I bought from the early Westerfield days that I still think would be easier to open the box, read the instructions, and then scratchbuild from styrene!

 

We Southern modelers are probably not a great market, because we wouldn’t believe it was true if an accurate mass market styrene steam era Southern freight model ever hit the shelves!

 

Dave


Jack Mullen
 

Aren't the all of the Westerfield SU models the postwar steel-end versions?

Post-WWi, that is.

Jack Mullen


Ray Breyer
 

Hi Dave,

Yep: 100% tongue in cheek. I'd include the Southern as a 'second tier' popular road, behind only the ATSF, UP, SP and maybe a couple of modern roads. It's hugely popular, and given the large number of their currently active steam engines (4? 5?) they get a LOT more exposure every year. Everyone loves their green steam, including the millions annually seeing 1401. Anyone running a green steam engine is necessarily modeling the Southern before 1952, so there are plenty of opportunities to sell a boxful of their boxcars to people.

And if Rapido is releasing some obscure NP car that 'only' counted 4,000 cars, why in the world won't a manufacturer look at a 20,000-plus built car that ran on multiple roads, well through the end of the transition era? As Ben said: lack of education, and plenty of bias against 'old'.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




From: "'David Bott' dbott@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load



 
 
 
And with that many boxcars in service between 1916 and 1955, why don't we have a good plastic model of them again? Is it because of the Southern's gross green locomotives, zero public relations, horrible PR, and general lack of a following? Hmmm.......
 
 
Ray Breyer 
 Elgin, IL
 
 
Ray,
 
Methinks I detect satire, but just in case…
 
The only gross green are the overly lime freight and excursion scheme-based models with the silly red roofs making them look more like Christmas ornaments than the prototype.  The original Virginia green passenger steam locomotive was beautiful. And for public relations, they had a massive advertising campaign that covered the entire end of this list’s time frame beginning in the late 30’s and ending in the 60’s. I would think that the Southern steam program might be considered quite impressive in terms of public relations too, of course THAT all occurred after this list time period after President Brosnan finished mechanizing and updating everything while alienating everyone.  There are PLENTY of Southern modelers, I know quite a few personally, including a guy who models Southern’s Murphy Branch in the steam era in N scale.  I know two who “roll their own” locomotives.
 
The biggest problem with the Southern for modelers is that everything they did was pretty much unique and rarely shared by other roads…like late steam era truss rod 36’ box cars.  Mostly they had little capital, huge debts as they consolidated a patchwork of rail lines, and they spent most of their money investing in right-of-way and simplifying the ownership issues (the legal history of the Southern Railway begun by Fairfax Harrison in two fat volumes of mergers and acquisitions and trackage rights was supplemented by two more huge fat volumes in the early 50’s to document the corporate streamlining.  The book by Klein describes how the Southern top hats had to grovel before FDR’s administration to get the interest free loans necessary to modernize their steam era freight car fleet with the ’37 cars so well covered by Red Caboose and IMWX with updates from Speedwitch media decals.  Later, in Southern’s diesel era beginning in ’53, which I find amusingly coincides with what many on this list think of as their steam era, the road began innovating in freight car designs following their MoW equipment.
 
So much unique steam stuff makes them tough for the RTR modelers.  Many Southern modelers spend their time researching, kitbashing, and doing their own thing. Or they are diesel modelers dreaming of high hoods forward which doesn’t bring them this way that often.
 
So unique, self-helping, and kitbashing, or off-topic, the Southern modelers don’t appear as a strong commercial market.  And yet the gons, flat cars, and caboose models, in addition to the great Westerfield kits covering every variant of that truss-rod shorty and the off-this-list waffle box and radio-car have sold well.
 
My own layout will have a couple of brass Ks-1 and my own kitbashed #338 class J consolidation pulling lots of Southern SU truss rod cars (mostly used in LCL or merchandise service unlike that photo), what N&W 1934 era-appropriate box and hoppers I can find, the occasional B&O, C&O, ACL, SAL, VGN, HPR&A, WSSB, TC, S&A, GA, and other fine southeastern and Atlantic seaboard freight cars, and a few Schluderberg & Kurdle meat reefers from Baltimore, and the odd tank car of tanning liquid from Richmond (INSX), and the few cars from ATSF, NYC, Pennsy, and others from monster fleets that wandered down to NC’s Piedmont plateau on occasion.  I’m working on analyzing Cap’n H. F. Snow’s conductor books on the Winston-Salem division to get that mix right.
 
I’m betting that new Accurail 36’ car helps me model a few of those wandering cars, though I still need the Westerfields to do the era right.  I got ten of the good grey resin kits to build, plus two 3-cars-in-1 kit sets with the yellow resin I bought from the early Westerfield days that I still think would be easier to open the box, read the instructions, and then scratchbuild from styrene!
 
We Southern modelers are probably not a great market, because we wouldn’t believe it was true if an accurate mass market styrene steam era Southern freight model ever hit the shelves!
 
Dave





Eric Hansmann
 

Yes, Jack. That is my understanding.

 

And the F&C kit represents a later rebuild/refresh of the early 1920s cars.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 6:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Interesting Photo of a Box Car and Load

 



Aren't the all of the Westerfield SU models the postwar steel-end versions?

 

Post-WWi, that is.



Jack Mullen