Photo help for M&STL hoppers
The current project is the upgrade of six Athearn and Accurail open top hoppers, four MILWAUKEE, one SOO LINE and two MINNEAPOLIS & ST LOUIS, to what I call the "Kadee Standard." The upgrade which includes wire grabs, brake wheel, retainer valve and line, train line, etc., I was able to complete the MILWAUKEE and SOO LINE hoppers as I was able to find photos to complete; however, I have had no success finding a photo for the M&STL hoppers. The M&STL hoppers are USRA 5th Ave Car Shops plastic kits painted, lettered and numbered correctly 65243 and 65287 for series 65001 to 65355, odd only, delivered in 1943. The small data sheet states the hoppers were acquired from Westmoreland Coal Company via Hyman- Michaels. The best photo I could find was on RR Picture Archieves of hopper 63537 which is similar in design; however, I can not be sure if same hand brake, retainer valve location, and uncoupling lever type remained the same for the 65001 to 65355 series. So photo help needed. BTW the photo I found can be viewed at
Thank you for your time and effort to help in advance. Lester Breuer
Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
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Hi Lester and List Members,
BTW the photo I found can be viewed at
It looks to me like this car had just been repainted prior to being photographed, and one can make out some of the old lettering as a ghost image. At a minimum, the word "CHICAGO" is clearly visible.
Anyone have any thoughts on who the previous owner was?
The 1956 M&StL freight car diagrams denote that 65001-65355 (odd) were built by Pressed Steel Car Co. in 1920-1921. It also specifies that at the time 12 cars remained in service. The diagram further states the hand brake as “A.A.R. Std.” and trucks as “Bettendorf.” From the photo described below, the trucks are an A.R.A./A.A.R. integral-journal design with spring planks. Wheels appear to be steel.
Regarding photos, I have one of M&StL 65327 purchased many years ago from Jay Williams. This photo shows a build date of 3-21, HEG. 7-43 reweigh, and HEG. 7-10-43 repack by “HMC” for the Hyman-Michaels Co. The paint & stencils are fresh, so the photo date would have likely been soon after July10, 1943. The photo showing the right side of the car is a 3/4-A end view such that the hand brake and retainer line are not visible.
Perhaps resident M&StL historians Gene Green and Clark Propst may have additional information and/or photos.
I did a write up on M&StL hoppers and how to model them in The CNWHS “Modeler” online magazine. You’ll have to go to their site...I don’t recall much about them...Not a hopper guy...
Mason City Iowa
Les, and others, below is the contents of a message Gene Green posted to the MSTL group regarding the 63000 hoppers. The 63000 cars were different than the 65000 cars. The only photo I have of a 63000 hopper is of #63537, which clearly shows the word Chicago under the new paint. The 63000 cars were built in 1920-1922. Most likely they are USRA clones. The 5th Ave Car Shops model you have is based on a USRA hopper car, which is not 100% accurate for a USRA car. Which might account for some of the differences you noticed.
I have two photos of 65000 hoppers, 65091 and 65327. Only the 65091 photo shows the brake wheel end. It has a vertical brake wheel and the retaining valve is just below the rim of the end and located in almost the center. 65327 has a Carmer uncoupling lever, 65091 does not.
Hope this helps. I have additional info on other M&StL hoppers, most courtesy of both Gene and Clark.
Here's more than you ever wanted to know about the M&StL's used, open-top,
two-bay hoppers acquired in 1941 and numbered 63001 through 63579.
numbers ranged from CBPX, as has been stated by others, stands for Chicago By-Products which was
formerly Peoples Gas By-Products of Chicago (PGBX).
There were originally 290 cars total and their original CBPX
100 through 837 with lots of missing numbers. All the cars were delivered to
the M&StL at Peoria. The Alton delivered 102 cars, Rock Island delivered 39,
and Illinois Central 99. The first car was delivered June 11, 1941, the last
July 6, 1941.
The AFE offered no clue as to the builder although dates built ranged from
January 1920 through May 1921. All except four cars were built in November and
December 1920 and January and February 1921.
These cars were retired by the M&StL mostly in 1948 through 1952. M&StL hopper
63375 lasted until January 1961 when it was retired and subsequently sold to M.
S. Kaplan Co. August 10, 1961.
Four were lost to wrecks as follows:
63011 on the M&StL at Searsboro September 21, 1945
63201 on the Illinois Terminal November 20, 1948
63319 on the Illinois Central in February 1947
63463 on the ERIE April 27, 1948
Aside for the 4 wrecked cars and the one sold to Kaplan, all the rest were sold
to the Purdy Co.
One train of 103 of these cars were in a single train from Marshalltown on
January 30, 1953 to Peoria from where the GM&O took them to Burnham, Illinois
and handed them over to the Indiana Harbor Belt for delivery to Purdy. Of these
103 cars only 8 numbers are known; 63017, 63073, 63127, 63343, 63363, 63373,
63425 and 63453.
The AFEs do not tell us what happened to most of these cars after delivery to
Purdy but some dispositions are known.
Eighteen cars were renumbered PCX (Purdy's reporting marks) 6301 through 6318
inclusive. Of these, 6301 through 6309 were subsequently renumbered WICO 2125
through 2133 (6309 became 2125, 6308 2126, etc.) for Woodward Iron Co.,
The remaining cars known to be renumbered PCX were also in the 6300 series.
None of the applicable AFEs had any clue as to builder, type of trucks, brake
system, hand brake or any of that neat stuff a modeler would like to know.
Three of the cars were reweighed at Minneapolis (MPLS) 7-41 as follows:
63547's new weight was 37900 lbs.
63531 was 38600 lbs.
63539 was 39000 lbs.
M&StL 63375 was reweighed at some unknown location in February 1958 and found to
weigh 37700 lbs.
That's all, Folks.
Lester and group,
Clark's article covering these and other M&StL hoppers is in Vol.4, no.3 of CNWHS Modeler. While that issue is no longer a free download, Vol.4 can be purchased on a CD from the CNWHS store. http://cnwhs.org/shopping/index.php?cPath=41
Cleark's article includes a photo of 65327, an A end 3/4 view. That doesn't resolve the brake question, but does show that the car has Carmer uncoupling levers. The photo also shows that the end posts are the post-USRA channels riveted to the faces of end sill and end sheet.
Clark's article is supplemented with car diagrams and car cards from CNWHS archives.which do confirm that the hand brake is a horizontal wheel, 11' 8 1/2" height above rail, and the cars have AB brakes.
Thanks, Clark (and the others who helped provide the info in these articles.) Not bad for somebody who says he isn't a hopper guy.