Monon #37 w/Archer Surface Details Update


Bill Welch
 

Before CCB's Prototype Rails I posted a link with photos showing how I have used Archer Surface Detail decals to model a welded boxcar. This is an update.


Here is the C&BT Car Shops body as 1947 Built Monon #37 in Badger’s “Stynylrez” Acrylic Polyurethane primer and the scratch built ladders attached. The photos show the Athearn rivet detail I added to the ends. As a reminder the Weld Lines are Archer’s Aircraft Panels Lines. The rivets on the ends of the roof and very ends of the side are Archer Rivets. The primer was applied at about 20-PSI w/my Badger 105 and .75mm needle/tip combo.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t749sxg6p0l4qky/AACUf702qurvzxn3W_FZ7xdLa?dl=0


Bill Welch


Todd Sullivan
 

Nice work, Bill.  Nothing like close-up photos to put a model under the microscope!

The Archer weld lines are a bit wavy, which you have recognized in previous posts.  Many years ago, Jim Eager taught me an alternate way of doing weld lines when I was reworking the sides of a Robins Rails 50ft PS-1 model (the only 50ft PS-1 on the market at the time).  Jim used a No. 11 Xacto blade to score each weld line on the car side, then went over each weld line with the back of a No. 17 blade.  The secret is that the No. 11 blade creates a shallow groove with small ridges of plastic on both sides of the groove.  The No. 17 blade flattens these ridges and closes them over the groove, resulting in a 'weld' line.  The key to success is knowing how much pressure to apply to each of the blade movements.  Experimenting on a scrap plastic boxcar body before working on your super detailed model is recommended.

Todd Sullivan


Andy Carlson
 

Todd's suggestion reminds me of a somewhat similar technique for fine model building.

Back when I was first making riveted Z-bars for single sheathed box cars, I used the classic method of riveting a sheet of 0.010" styrene. After embossing the rivets, I would trim the rivet portion of the sheet to about 0.055" inch wide and the length desired, posistioning the rivets close to one edge. Applying this riveted strip to where a Z-bar was required, plus a follow up of a 0.020" X 0.020" evergreen strip hugging the edge furtherest from the rivet line gave the classic riveted Z-bar which technique is still being used to this date.

I experimented on a 52' CN gondola which used z-bars over steel sides, a somewhat rare use of Z-bars as stamped steel posts are far more common in these instances.

Using the principle Todd mentioned, a steady pressure #11 blade pulled down the steel side at the location where the riveted line would be found left a "furrow", much like a farmer's plowed field. I followed up with passing a flat chisel blade's backside and drawn backwards, knocking only ONE raised "furrow" (the one which would be facing towards the rivets) leaving the other furrow intact. Next a trip to the rivet embosser and running a length of rivets close to the surviving furrow. The application of the 0.020 X 0.030 evergreen strip completed the "Z-bar. Now the raised furrow emulated the edge of the flat portion of the steel Z-bar, but with a closer to 3/8" scale edge. I do believe that Frank Hodina also used this technique for at least one Sunshine car sometime later, which goes to show interesting techniques arrive independently many times over.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



From: "sullivant41@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 4:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Monon #37 w/Archer Surface Details Update

 
Nice work, Bill.  Nothing like close-up photos to put a model under the microscope!

The Archer weld lines are a bit wavy, which you have recognized in previous posts.  Many years ago, Jim Eager taught me an alternate way of doing weld lines when I was reworking the sides of a Robins Rails 50ft PS-1 model (the only 50ft PS-1 on the market at the time).  Jim used a No. 11 Xacto blade to score each weld line on the car side, then went over each weld line with the back of a No. 17 blade.  The secret is that the No. 11 blade creates a shallow groove with small ridges of plastic on both sides of the groove.  The No. 17 blade flattens these ridges and closes them over the groove, resulting in a 'weld' line.  The key to success is knowing how much pressure to apply to each of the blade movements.  Experimenting on a scrap plastic boxcar body before working on your super detailed model is recommended.

Todd Sullivan



Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

Here is the C&BT Car Shops body as 1947 Built Monon #37 in Badger’s “Stynylrez” Acrylic Polyurethane primer and the scratch built ladders attached. The photos show the Athearn rivet detail I added to the ends. As a reminder the Weld Lines are Archer’s Aircraft Panels Lines. The rivets on the ends of the roof and very ends of the side are Archer Rivets. The primer was applied at about 20-PSI w/my Badger 105 and .75mm needle/tip combo.

    The car looks very nice, Bill. The Archer panel lines are really not very appropriate if you look up close, as your photos permit us to do, but on any layout they would do the job you intend, namely to suggest separate panels. I like the result!

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Richard Townsend
 

Tony,
 
Could you explain a little more about why you say the Archer panel lines aren't appropriate?
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Jan 10, 2017 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon #37 w/Archer Surface Details Update

 
Bill Welch wrote:

Here is the C&BT Car Shops body as 1947 Built Monon #37 in Badger’s “Stynylrez” Acrylic Polyurethane primer and the scratch built ladders attached. The photos show the Athearn rivet detail I added to the ends. As a reminder the Weld Lines are Archer’s Aircraft Panels Lines. The rivets on the ends of the roof and very ends of the side are Archer Rivets. The primer was applied at about 20-PSI w/my Badger 105 and .75mm needle/tip combo.

    The car looks very nice, Bill. The Archer panel lines are really not very appropriate if you look up close, as your photos permit us to do, but on any layout they would do the job you intend, namely to suggest separate panels. I like the result!

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






riverman_vt@...
 

   That is beautiful work, Bill, but leaves one big question in my mind. What are you 
going to do about the grossly high ribs of the roof seams. Dick S. tried to convince
me to purchase the C&BT line from him some years ago but the cost of retooling 
the roofs to get rid of that issue, added to what he wanted for the tooling, was
enough to put me off. He swore up and down that he and another fellow has salvaged
a piece of a freight car roof and taken the rib height measurements from that piece 
but the piece was never seen when his measurements were questioned. To me it is
the only serious problem with the line.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Bill Welch
 

I don't intend to do anything.

Bill Welch


Tony Thompson
 

Richard Townsend wrote:

 
Could you explain a little more about why you say the Archer panel lines aren't appropriate?

       Traditional aircraft panels aren't welded, they are riveted. And if they are welded, the weld bead doesn't rise up above the surface, doesn't have any splatter, and doesn't wander from a straight line. There are of course welds made in some situations which fit all that description, but not in airplanes (or at least not in an airplane I want to fly in).

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Richard Townsend
 

I see. Thanks. You're saying they aren't appropriate for aircraft models. I agree with that. I thought you were saying they aren't appropriate for the use Bill put them to. Carry on.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Wed, Jan 11, 2017 10:10 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon #37 w/Archer Surface Details Update

 
Richard Townsend wrote:

 
Could you explain a little more about why you say the Archer panel lines aren't appropriate?

       Traditional aircraft panels aren't welded, they are riveted. And if they are welded, the weld bead doesn't rise up above the surface, doesn't have any splatter, and doesn't wander from a straight line. There are of course welds made in some situations which fit all that description, but not in airplanes (or at least not in an airplane I want to fly in).

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Bill Welch
 

Wow, this is really down in something and it is not weeds.

Those of us that have built a model airplane know exactly what Archer has done. In the 1960's on, when model airplane kits really blossomed, all of them represented the aluminum panel lines with a raised line. Serious aircraft modelers at some point began to completely sand the surface of their models and scribe new panel line into the surface. There are templates to help scribe things with rounded shapes or corners. Eventually, certainly by the early 1990's manufacturers had developed the knowledge and technology—if that was what was preventing them doing so—or decided to meet the demand of modelers for better detail. Hmm, sound like anyone we know?

For whatever reason  Archer produces decals to replicate this old kit look. Thank you Archer!

Here is a tip from my experience using them: At first I cut the decal film as close as I could. By the time I was onto the second side I realized that if I left a wider margin of film, they were easier to get down straight.

Bill Welch


Justin May
 

Bill,
I reviewed your photos and think you have done an excellent job. The Archer Raised Panel Lines take some time and practice to learn, but with one car under your belt, you certainly have shown that the learning curve is not overly difficult to master. The raised panel lines allow for modeling different prototypes or to improve existing models. I can think of several car classes from ACL, CofG, and Southern that will benefit from their presence on the market. The Archer welds are too heavy in my opinion whereas these raised panel lines provide the scale appearance modelers desire.


Great job and thank you for sharing your work.

Justin May

On Jan 11, 2017, at 14:59, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Wow, this is really down in something and it is not weeds.

Those of us that have built a model airplane know exactly what Archer has done. In the 1960's on, when model airplane kits really blossomed, all of them represented the aluminum panel lines with a raised line. Serious aircraft modelers at some point began to completely sand the surface of their models and scribe new panel line into the surface. There are templates to help scribe things with rounded shapes or corners. Eventually, certainly by the early 1990's manufacturers had developed the knowledge and technology—if that was what was preventing them doing so—or decided to meet the demand of modelers for better detail. Hmm, sound like anyone we know?

For whatever reason  Archer produces decals to replicate this old kit look. Thank you Archer!

Here is a tip from my experience using them: At first I cut the decal film as close as I could. By the time I was onto the second side I realized that if I left a wider margin of film, they were easier to get down straight.

Bill Welch


Dean Payne
 

Hmm... this discussion got me to wondering if Archer Surface Details would help me scratch build a roof on a DT&I rebuild from 1936.  I don't think that the half-round styrene shapes are available small enough to replicate the riblets on the Cambre radial roof shown here:


http://dti.railfan.net/Equipment_Database/DTI11000sUSRA40%27dsBox/ArtDTI11500s.html


I don't have any Archer sheets to look at, can you give me an idea if they would work?  I bet there aren't too many Cambre roofs out there!  But, I don't think you can build a convincing version of this car without that roof, and I have a soft spot for the oddball rebuilds done during the 30's.  Plus, Detroit is the northern terminus of my road.


Dean Payne




Jack Mullen
 

Archer provides a sheet with lines of three widths, approximately .005, .007, and .010, according to their website. I'd think the .010 might do for representing Murphy pressed ribs in HO.

In O, I think I'll try one of the smaller sizes next time I need welded boxcar sides.

I'm wondering about the term Cambre roof. The capitalization suggests it's a trade name, but it's one I've not encountered before. OTOH, uncapitalized it's awfully close to "camber", which describes the shape of the roof, a shallow arch. Anyone have facts or insights?

Jack Mullen


Bill Welch
 

Dean

I looked at my Archer panel line decals this morning and I don't think event the widest ones have enough profile, plus there are only three lines so you would need 2-3 sets.

Instead I suggest using 0.010 styrene rod. Once it is down and given a chance to cure here are two ways to make it look like a stamping

—flow thin CA along each side to "fill" each side. You may decide doing this twice will be necessary. When cured fold some #600 sandpaper and run the fold along each edge. I have used this method and the effect is very convincing I think.

—similarly run Testors liquid cement down each side. This will require a substrate of maybe .60 styrene to prevent distortion. Maybe alternate by running the Testors along the top of the rod. This will gradually melt the rod to give it a stamped look.

Bill Welch


Dennis Storzek
 

I always found the way to turn round styrene rod into a simulated weld bead or whatever was to cement it into a scribed line. Done correctly, it has these advantages:

1. Since the scribing was done along a straightedge, the bead will be straight.
2. If the scribe is the proper depth, it will bury half the diameter of the rod, which is what you want.

The trick is getting the scribing right. Pulling a knife blade along will turn up a burr on each side of the line, which will make the rod stand higher; which may be what you need. Using a V shaped tool to excavate the material in the groove (pulling a small curl out of the sheet as you go) then lightly sanding the sheet to remove any burrs will allow the rod to sit lower. It's best to make some practice pieces to get the technique down before doing the final part.

If these are ribs that go all the way across the roof, you could also build the roof surface as a lamination over a properly shaped substrate, using .010 x .020 styrene strips on edge for the ribs, surrounded by  strips of .015" thick styrene sheet. This would yield 1" wide rectangular ribs standing 1/2" high in HO scale.

Dennis Storzek


Allan Smith
 

Evergreen Scale Models makes a half round rod in various small sizes 1mm 1.5mm. I don't know if this is small enough for the raised round stampings you show in the attached photos. If you go to Evergreen Scale Models web site and look at the catalog you might find what your looking for. 

Al Smith
Sonora Ca


On Saturday, January 14, 2017 9:37 AM, "destorzek@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I always found the way to turn round styrene rod into a simulated weld bead or whatever was to cement it into a scribed line. Done correctly, it has these advantages:

1. Since the scribing was done along a straightedge, the bead will be straight.
2. If the scribe is the proper depth, it will bury half the diameter of the rod, which is what you want.

The trick is getting the scribing right. Pulling a knife blade along will turn up a burr on each side of the line, which will make the rod stand higher; which may be what you need. Using a V shaped tool to excavate the material in the groove (pulling a small curl out of the sheet as you go) then lightly sanding the sheet to remove any burrs will allow the rod to sit lower. It's best to make some practice pieces to get the technique down before doing the final part.

If these are ribs that go all the way across the roof, you could also build the roof surface as a lamination over a properly shaped substrate, using .010 x .020 styrene strips on edge for the ribs, surrounded by  strips of .015" thick styrene sheet. This would yield 1" wide rectangular ribs standing 1/2" high in HO scale.

Dennis Storzek