Topics

the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,

I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg

Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.

I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken, but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.

Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.

So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at this location on the railroad?

Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier? Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?

Claus Schlund

Richard Brennan
 

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left also standard gauge?

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 08:52 AM 3/14/2017, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] wrote:
I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg

Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.

I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken,
but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.

Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.

So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge
plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at
this location on the railroad?

Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the
right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier?
Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?

Charles Peck
 

I can't say I have been on THAT dock but I have been on many.
The right hand rail that is secured to concrete, not ties, appears
to be for a gantry crane that straddles two or more railroad tracks.
Ties would have too much give for the usual gantry which must reach
well outside the track structure for loads.  A soft support would be
unstable.
The intended purpose of the dual gauge track on ties under the RR
crane I cannot guess. 
Chuck Peck in FL

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Richard Brennan rbrennan@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 08:52 AM 3/14/2017, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] wrote:
>I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...
>
>http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg
>
>Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.
>
>I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken,
>but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.
>
>Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.
>
>So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge
>plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at
>this location on the railroad?
>
>Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the
>right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier?
>Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?


Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <rbrennan@...> wrote :

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?
================

That's what it looks like to me. The rail furthest to the right, being held to the pier with all the screw spikes, may be a dedicated rail for a traveling tower crane that isn't in the picture. These needed rails gauged to match the bottom of the tower, but those rails were sometimes incorporated into other track also.

Dennis Storzek

Douglas Harding
 

It appears to be a standard gauge and narrow gauge (3’?). The Erie was originally built to a broad gauge, but by the time of this photo had been standard gauged. The 4th rail, closest to the water, appears to be set on a concrete based, whereas the other three rails are on wood ties. So I don’t think it is a gauntlet track. It could be for an overhead traveling crane that is out of the picture, which begs the question if any overhead crane is available why use the railroad crane? That rail could also be an outside 3rd rail for electrical power, but I don’t recall 3rd rail electrics operating in the Hoboken area.

 

As to the crates, the one being lifted contains a gasoline tractor, or part of a tractor, from the Hart-Parr Tractor works of Charles City IA. The Hart-Parr Co built a factory in Charles City in 1901, and merged into the Oliver Farm Equipment Co in 1929. Oliver became part of White Tractor in 1960.

 

The crate on the Central Vermont flatcar is lettered “Caterpillar Power” from the Caterpillar factory in Peoria ILL.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge

 

 

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 08:52 AM 3/14/2017, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] wrote:
>I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...
>
>http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg
>
>Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.
>
>I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken,
>but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.
>
>Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.
>
>So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge
>plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at
>this location on the railroad?
>
>Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the
>right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier?
>Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?

Charles Peck
 

Really Dennis?  You would run a piece of equipment down "track" where one rail
is on ties and the other is on some other support?  Where there is nothing holding
the rails in gauge except ballast and habit? I wouldn't even want to watch.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 12:33 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?
================

That's what it looks like to me. The rail furthest to the right, being held to the pier with all the screw spikes, may be a dedicated rail for a traveling tower crane that isn't in the picture. These needed rails gauged to match the bottom of the tower, but those rails were sometimes incorporated into other track also.

Dennis Storzek


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Guys, I’ve sent this inquiry to the erielack list where there is somebody who will KNOW what it going on here. So perhaps we could cool the speculation, which only leads to misinformation, you know, as in “I read on the STMFC that the rail . . .”



I >>THINK<< that the rail on the right is the outboard rail not for a gantry crane, but an overhead crane arrangement that’s involved with loading car floats in New York harbor. The box off to the right, similar to the box being lifted, is probably on a lighter which will take the boxes to a freight ship out in the harbor. The other rail is on the other side of the flat cars, perhaps even a track or two further off to the left.



Why use the crane if there’s a gantry? Because the gantry used to make the apron match up with the tide-variable level of the car floats doesn’t have the capability to lift that box AND place it on the lighter to the right.



As to the extra rail between the standard gauge rails, I’m clueless, but I am sure that one of the erielack guys will know.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 12:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge









---In STMFC@..., <rbrennan@...> wrote :

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?
================

That's what it looks like to me. The rail furthest to the right, being held to the pier with all the screw spikes, may be a dedicated rail for a traveling tower crane that isn't in the picture. These needed rails gauged to match the bottom of the tower, but those rails were sometimes incorporated into other track also.

Dennis Storzek

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Doug,

The middle crate is marked "Case". So we have three major manufacturers of power equipment represented here. Interesting.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 3/14/17 12:42 PM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

It appears to be a standard gauge and narrow gauge (3’?). The Erie was originally built to a broad gauge, but by the time of this photo had been standard gauged. The 4th rail, closest to the water, appears to be set on a concrete based, whereas the other three rails are on wood ties. So I don’t think it is a gauntlet track. It could be for an overhead traveling crane that is out of the picture, which begs the question if any overhead crane is available why use the railroad crane? That rail could also be an outside 3rd rail for electrical power, but I don’t recall 3rd rail electrics operating in the Hoboken area.

 

As to the crates, the one being lifted contains a gasoline tractor, or part of a tractor, from the Hart-Parr Tractor works of Charles City IA. The Hart-Parr Co built a factory in Charles City in 1901, and merged into the Oliver Farm Equipment Co in 1929. Oliver became part of White Tractor in 1960.

 

The crate on the Central Vermont flatcar is lettered “Caterpillar Power” from the Caterpillar factory in Peoria ILL.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge

 

 

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 08:52 AM 3/14/2017, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] wrote:
>I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...
>
>http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg
>
>Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.
>
>I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken,
>but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.
>
>Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.
>
>So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge
>plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at
>this location on the railroad?
>
>Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the
>right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier?
>Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?


spsalso
 

Notice that the bollards go off into the distance in a straight line.  This section of dock would thus appear to be straight.

Notice that, beyond the crane, the rail on concrete curves abruptly to the left.  That curve looks unusually abrupt for a dockside crane.  And to no obvious point.

Notice also that the distance between rails 1 and 3 is very similar to the distance between rails 2 and 4.

Notice also what appear to be tie plates under rail 2 only.  Narrow gage cars would be unlikely to be more needful of tie plates than the standard gage cars.  Especially under one rail only.

For now, I will go with a track being added to lessen the distance between rail cars and ships so that crane loading is to better advantage.



Ed

Edward Sutorik

 

Douglas Harding
 

Garth I saw that, but I took to be a reference to the number of “cases” or crates in the delivery. Note the same notation is on the Hart-Parr crate, on the lower right side. Hart-Parr tractors were very large with steel lugged wheels. I suspect the shipment of a single tractor took several crates.

https://www.asme.org/about-asme/who-we-are/engineering-history/landmarks/190-hart-parr-tractor

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 2:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge

 

 

Doug,

The middle crate is marked "Case". So we have three major manufacturers of power equipment represented here. Interesting.

Yours Aye,

 

Garth Groff

 

On 3/14/17 12:42 PM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

It appears to be a standard gauge and narrow gauge (3’?). The Erie was originally built to a broad gauge, but by the time of this photo had been standard gauged. The 4th rail, closest to the water, appears to be set on a concrete based, whereas the other three rails are on wood ties. So I don’t think it is a gauntlet track. It could be for an overhead traveling crane that is out of the picture, which begs the question if any overhead crane is available why use the railroad crane? That rail could also be an outside 3rd rail for electrical power, but I don’t recall 3rd rail electrics operating in the Hoboken area.

 

As to the crates, the one being lifted contains a gasoline tractor, or part of a tractor, from the Hart-Parr Tractor works of Charles City IA. The Hart-Parr Co built a factory in Charles City in 1901, and merged into the Oliver Farm Equipment Co in 1929. Oliver became part of White Tractor in 1960.

 

The crate on the Central Vermont flatcar is lettered “Caterpillar Power” from the Caterpillar factory in Peoria ILL.

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge

 

 

Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 08:52 AM 3/14/2017, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] wrote:
>I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...
>
>http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg
>
>Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.
>
>I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken,
>but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.
>
>Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.
>
>So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge
>plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at
>this location on the railroad?
>
>Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the
>right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier?
>Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?

 

Scott H. Haycock
 

It also appears that rails 2 and 4 (the ones with tie plates) are heavier rail than the other two.

The rail closest to the water may be on a concrete pad on top of a sea wall. If you look at the boardwalk on the right, it appears to be wider in the distance, where that rail curves off to the left. 

Scott Haycock


 

Notice that the bollards go off into the distance in a straight line.  This section of dock would thus appear to be straight.


Notice that, beyond the crane, the rail on concrete curves abruptly to the left.  That curve looks unusually abrupt for a dockside crane.  And to no obvious point.

Notice also that the distance between rails 1 and 3 is very similar to the distance between rails 2 and 4.

Notice also what appear to be tie plates under rail 2 only.  Narrow gage cars would be unlikely to be more needful of tie plates than the standard gage cars.  Especially under one rail only.

For now, I will go with a track being added to lessen the distance between rail cars and ships so that crane loading is to better advantage.



Ed

Edward Sutorik

 



Schuyler Larrabee
 

No erielack confirmation yet, but I am beginning to think the gauntlet track hypothesis is correct.



And BTW, that 1915 Hart-Parr tractor, which probably was in production in 1912 when the photo was taken was a serious beast!



Schuyler



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:38 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge





Garth I saw that, but I took to be a reference to the number of “cases” or crates in the delivery. Note the same notation is on the Hart-Parr crate, on the lower right side. Hart-Parr tractors were very large with steel lugged wheels. I suspect the shipment of a single tractor took several crates.

<https://www.asme.org/about-asme/who-we-are/engineering-history/landmarks/190-hart-parr-tractor> https://www.asme.org/about-asme/who-we-are/engineering-history/landmarks/190-hart-parr-tractor



Doug Harding

<http://www.iowacentralrr.org> www.iowacentralrr.org



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 2:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge





Doug,

The middle crate is marked "Case". So we have three major manufacturers of power equipment represented here. Interesting.

Yours Aye,



Garth Groff



On 3/14/17 12:42 PM, 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] wrote:



It appears to be a standard gauge and narrow gauge (3’?). The Erie was originally built to a broad gauge, but by the time of this photo had been standard gauged. The 4th rail, closest to the water, appears to be set on a concrete based, whereas the other three rails are on wood ties. So I don’t think it is a gauntlet track. It could be for an overhead traveling crane that is out of the picture, which begs the question if any overhead crane is available why use the railroad crane? That rail could also be an outside 3rd rail for electrical power, but I don’t recall 3rd rail electrics operating in the Hoboken area.



As to the crates, the one being lifted contains a gasoline tractor, or part of a tractor, from the Hart-Parr Tractor works of Charles City IA. The Hart-Parr Co built a factory in Charles City in 1901, and merged into the Oliver Farm Equipment Co in 1929. Oliver became part of White Tractor in 1960.



The crate on the Central Vermont flatcar is lettered “Caterpillar Power” from the Caterpillar factory in Peoria ILL.



Doug Harding

<http://www.iowacentralrr.org> www.iowacentralrr.org



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge





Gauntlet track?
It is hard to tell... but are the right rail and the 2nd from left
also standard gauge?

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 08:52 AM 3/14/2017, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] wrote:
I ask the august members of this list to persuse this image...

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-02-16/X0280.jpg

Note you can also click on "Next image" for a slightly different view.

I think this location might be the barge/lighter loading area at Hoboken,
but I don't know the DL&W all that well, so I could be wrong.

Notice that the track the crane is on appears to be dual-gauge.

So is this standard-gauge plus narrow-gauge track, or is this standard-gauge
plus broad-gauge track? Why would there be any need for dual-gauge track at
this location on the railroad?

Also, there appears to be something that might be yet another rail to the
right of the crane - or is this just a construction feature of the pier?
Perhaps for a traveling overhead crane that is out of sight?






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Patrick Wade
 

Could this be gauntlet track?

Pat Wade
Santa Barbara, CA

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Edwardsutorik@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Notice that the bollards go off into the distance in a straight line.  This section of dock would thus appear to be straight.


Notice that, beyond the crane, the rail on concrete curves abruptly to the left.  That curve looks unusually abrupt for a dockside crane.  And to no obvious point.

Notice also that the distance between rails 1 and 3 is very similar to the distance between rails 2 and 4.

Notice also what appear to be tie plates under rail 2 only.  Narrow gage cars would be unlikely to be more needful of tie plates than the standard gage cars.  Especially under one rail only.

For now, I will go with a track being added to lessen the distance between rail cars and ships so that crane loading is to better advantage.



Ed

Edward Sutorik

 


spsalso
 

Or even gantlet track?


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Scott H. Haycock
 

If you go to the previous image, it is of a couple of Hart-Parr tractors.

Scott Haycock


 

No erielack confirmation yet, but I am beginning to think the gauntlet track hypothesis is correct.

And BTW, that 1915 Hart-Parr tractor, which probably was in production in 1912 when the photo was taken was a serious beast!

Schuyler



Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <lnnrr152@...> wrote :

Really Dennis?  You would run a piece of equipment down "track" where one rail
is on ties and the other is on some other support?  Where there is nothing holding
the rails in gauge except ballast and habit? I wouldn't even want to watch.
Chuck Peck in FL
==========================
Yeah, really. Secondary trackwork was done a bit differently back in the days of 30 and 40 ton cars. Those are long ties in that track, plenty long to keep it in place relative to the one separate rail mounted to the pier wall. We don't really know why they chose to do this, but I'm sure it worked well enough, at the time.

Dennis Storzek


rwitt_2000
 

The first crate on the left also has stenciled:

OELRICHS and CO.
5 Greenwich ST.
New York

A quick Google finds them to be a freight forwarding company.

There is book published by them "Aids to Shippers", which is available as an eBook.

Bob Witt