Gilbert-Nelson


Tony Thompson
 

Armand Premo wrote:

Tony , Many members of this list are not aware of the study It may be a good time to revisit the study . I for one would like to have another look at it .Too bad the study did not include the two large Canadian roads . 

    For a Gilbert-Nelson summary, about which I have written repeatedly in my blog, I might suggest you read a post from a few years ago. Here is a link:


I also looked at some conductor's records for the SP Coast Division, which I model, and found pretty good compliance with the Gilbert-Nelson model. You can readily find such posts in my blog by using the search box at the upper right of each post.
    The reason for omitting the Canadian rods is simple. Yes, they had huge fleets, but all data I have seen indicates that no more than 10 percent of those fleets would be in the U.S. at any one time. They thus fall to rather small proportions of the national fleet in the U.S. Of course a road with border connections might be different, but for the NATIONAL picture, Canadian cars were minor players.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Steve SANDIFER
 

Here are the contents of a conductor record book from 1930-31 on the ATSF. When you remove the tank cars, the ATSF cars are way in the majority. Of course this is just one glimpse.

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/Frt/index.htm

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 5:30 PM
To: Armand Premo
Cc: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gilbert-Nelson

 

 

Armand Premo wrote:



Tony , Many members of this list are not aware of the study It may be a good time to revisit the study . I for one would like to have another look at it .Too bad the study did not include the two large Canadian roads . 

 

    For a Gilbert-Nelson summary, about which I have written repeatedly in my blog, I might suggest you read a post from a few years ago. Here is a link:

 

 

I also looked at some conductor's records for the SP Coast Division, which I model, and found pretty good compliance with the Gilbert-Nelson model. You can readily find such posts in my blog by using the search box at the upper right of each post.

    The reason for omitting the Canadian rods is simple. Yes, they had huge fleets, but all data I have seen indicates that no more than 10 percent of those fleets would be in the U.S. at any one time. They thus fall to rather small proportions of the national fleet in the U.S. Of course a road with border connections might be different, but for the NATIONAL picture, Canadian cars were minor players.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 

 


Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Steve & Group,

Looking at the conductor lists for the grain trains, it appears that I am in need of a great number of ATSF box cars to meet the requirements of the annual grain rush on the Gridley Branch. 

Cheers & Happy Modeling,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Jun 18, 2017, at 8:25 PM, 'Steve Sandifer' steve.sandifer@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Here are the contents of a conductor record book from 1930-31 on the ATSF. When you remove the tank cars, the ATSF cars are way in the majority. Of course this is just one glimpse.

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/Frt/index.htm

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] 
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 5:30 PM
To: Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...>
Cc: Era Freight Car List Steam <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gilbert-Nelson

 

  

Armand Premo wrote:



Tony , Many members of this list are not aware of the study It may be a good time to revisit the study . I for one would like to have another look at it .Too bad the study did not include the two large Canadian roads . 

< /div>

 

    For a Gilbert-Nelson summary, about which I have written repeatedly in my blog, I might suggest you read a post from a few years ago. Here is a link:

 

 

I also looked at some conductor's records for the SP Coast Division, which I model, and found pretty good compliance with the Gilbert-Nelson model. You can readily find such posts in my blog by using the search box at the upper right of each post.

    The reason for omitting the Canadian rods is simple. Yes, they had huge fleets, but all data I ha ve seen indicates that no more than 10 percent of those fleets would be in the U.S. at any one time. They thus fall to rather small proportions of the national fleet in the U.S. Of course a road with border connections might be different, but for the NATIONAL picture, Canadian cars were minor players.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com 

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 

 

 




Dave Nelson
 

That is because my theory is about foreign road boxcars -- not all boxcars
-- as seen on mainline truck routes - not branchlines -- post Jan 1942 to,
oh, sometime in the mid 50's - not 1930-31.



I never had access to data 1930-31 so I will not speculate about it.



WRT Tony's comments, 10% is about correct for Canada to US loads, per
Dominion of Canada Transportation Statistics, in the years following WWII.
I expect there were some years when the numbers went up due to poor grain
harvests in the US (IIRC 1943 was one such year). Absent specific knowledge
use 10% of the Canadian Boxcar fleet (which was very large) as a very
reasonable average for how many of their cars went south in any given year.
10% would put both CP and CN under 1% of non-home-read sightings, on
average, which for most model railroads means none. And again, specific
knowledge (or desires) do matter.



Dave Nelson





From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 8:25 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Gilbert-Nelson








Here are the contents of a conductor record book from 1930-31 on the ATSF.
When you remove the tank cars, the ATSF cars are way in the majority. Of
course this is just one glimpse.

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/Frt/index.htm





From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 5:30 PM
To: Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...>
Cc: Era Freight Car List Steam <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gilbert-Nelson





Armand Premo wrote:



Tony , Many members of this list are not aware of the study It may be a good
time to revisit the study . I for one would like to have another look at it
.Too bad the study did not include the two large Canadian roads .



&n! bsp; For a Gilbert-Nelson summary, about which I have written
repeatedly in my blog, I might suggest you read a post from a few years ago.
Here is a link:



http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2010/12/choosing-model-car-fleet-2.html



I also looked at some conductor's records for the SP Coast Division, which I
model, and found pretty good compliance with the Gilbert-Nelson model. You
can readily find such posts in my blog by using the search box at the upper
right of each post.

The reason for omitting the Canadian rods is simple. Yes, they had huge
fleets, but all data I have seen indicates that no more than 10 percent of
those fleets would be in the U.S. at any one time. They thus fall to rather
small proportions of the national fleet in the U.S. Of course a road with
border connections might be different, but for the NATIONAL picture,
Canadian cars were minor players.



Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, ! tony@...
<mailto:tony@...>

Publishers of books on railroad history


np328
 

Bill, 
       your post entirely supports an observation I made in a presentation at Naperville and Cocoa prior.

       this observation and conclusion I showed in my "Closer to the Railhead" presentation perhaps almost a decade back by now. This was a presentation that grew out of a seed planted by Brian Carlson years earlier.

     I found a group of AAR Special Car Orders, and noted that these SCO's and the ripening of grain across the US (in a southwest to northeast direction through the continent) worked in a one-two, one-two, heart beat rhythm.

      These comments about ratio of home roads cars that I have read of late do not take into account what season or time of year. And yes this matters. These SCO's were ALL ABOUT timely responses to timely events.

       The AAR SCOs came out a month to two weeks earlier than the harvest area and directed home road cars to be sent home in anticipation of the harvest. So yes, you would see a lot of home road cars, at harvest time. Other times of the year, no.
      
       It ties directly back to what Richard Hendrickson used to state about the more accurate you can fix the time you model, the more accurate you can model the fleet. 

    Remember what Richard H said about people who stated they were modeling "the 50's", how if you stated that, then "all you were doing was modeling 1959 badly."  Date range of a decade or year, big mistake or lessor mistake, however still a mistake as to accuracy. 

       To go further on this, imagine you stated to someone that you wanted to get together with them and they said "Great, let's do it sometime next year", how would you respond? Would you be insulted, would you ask to clarify it further?  Apply that same response to your modeling date.
                                                                                                                     Jim Dick - St. Paul

     Tim O', to your comment "why do we keep rehashing this?", my pastor used to say, people who listen often don't need to be told, people who don't listen, probably never will.  


Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

 
    I found a group of AAR Special Car Orders, and noted that these SCO's and the ripening of grain across the US (in a southwest to northeast direction through the continent) worked in a one-two, one-two, heart beat rhythm.

       This is quite true, but many of the SCOs prior to the introduction of SCO 90 in 1953 were about coal cars, with railroads or groups of railroads needing empties back.

    Remember what Richard H said about people who stated they were modeling "the 50's", how if you stated that, then "all you were doing was modeling 1959 badly."  Date range of a decade or year, big mistake or lessor mistake, however still a mistake as to accuracy. 

   Richard did indeed like this quote, as do I, but the origin, as far as Richard or I knew. is Tony Koester. He should get the credit.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

An interesting quote, Tony. If I may be so bold as to give an example, at the beginning of the 50's, American railroads were powered almost exclusively by steam power, cars and locomotives rode on plain journal bearings, the typical boxcar was a 40' car with 6' doors, and usually painted a red or brown and was lettered with white lettering. Many roads used train orders and timetable scheduling, and passengers still rode on trains.
By 1960, almost all trains were powered by diesels, with second-generation locomotives on the horizon. The typical boxcar was now a 50' car with 8 or 9' doors, painted in a rainbow of colors, and more often than not, rode on roller bearings. Many roads had converted to CTC, eliminating many lonely train order stations and jobs. Passengers still rode on trains, but more and more were flying or driving. This is just a small sample of the many changes that occurred in that decade.
 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA


On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:37 PM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Jim Dick wrote:

 
    I found a group of AAR Special Car Orders, and noted that these SCO's and the ripening of grain across the US (in a southwest to northeast direction through the continent) worked in a one-two, one-two, heart beat rhythm.

       This is quite true, but many of the SCOs prior to the introduction of SCO 90 in 1953 were about coal cars, with railroads or groups of railroads needing empties back.

    Remember what Richard H said about people who stated they were modeling "the 50's", how if you stated that, then "all you were doing was modeling 1959 badly."  Date range of a decade or year, big mistake or lessor mistake, however still a mistake as to accuracy. 

   Richard did indeed like this quote, as do I, but the origin, as far as Richard or I knew. is Tony Koester. He should get the credit.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








Tim O'Connor
 

Bill Daniels wrote

 By 1960 ... The typical boxcar was now a 50' car with 8 or 9' doors ... and more
 often than not, rode on roller bearings.


Bill, I have to disagree. In 1960 the great majority of box cars were still 40 foot
cars, and most freight cars still rode on plain bearings. I'm sure someone with handy
Railway Age or other references could give us the actual percentages.

Just looking at the T&NO in 1959 (since I have the ORER handy) it shows almost 9,000
40 foot box cars and less than 1,000 50 foot box cars.

Without a doubt the most impactful change to box car traffic from 1930 to 1960 was
the loss of LCL traffic. LCL traffic had once dominated merchandise traffic but trucks
and changes in distribution patterns had radically reduced the traffic, and even the
SP's famous Overnight trains had become nearly all piggyback trailers before 1960. The
loss of LCL and the emergence of -specialized- cars (RBL's XAP's XL's) also contributed
to the reduced percentage of loaded box car miles down towards the present day's barely
better than 50 percent loaded miles.

Tim O'Connor




np328
 

Tony,
    thank you for stating the crediting the other Tony,  Tony K, and also informing me.  I recall Richard using this phrase so often that after a while, I just accepted Richard as the author.    Jim Dick - St. Paul


devansprr
 

Beyond the timeframe of this list, but to address one of the statements:

A 1979 book by ASME's Rail Transportation Division includes a figure from an AAR "Quarterly Overheated Journal Report" from 1978 that plots bearing types, and overheated journals for 1972-1978. It reports the 50-50 crossover from "plain journal cars" to "roller bearing cars" occurred in about July 1972. By the summer of 1978, the ratio was still only around 33-67 (2/3rds roller bearing equipped.) By 1978, even though only 1/3 of the fleet, plain bearing cars accounted for 89% of bearing overheats. Failure rates per car mile are not provided.

The book states:

- Roller bearings were made standard by AAR for new cars of 100 tons or more capacity in 1966

- Roller bearings were made standard by AAR for all new cars in 1968

- Roller bearings were made standard by AAR for all rebuilt cars in 1970

"No field lubrication" roller bearings were made standard in 1976

Dave Evans


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Thanks, Tim and Dave. 


On Jun 21, 2017, at 6:57 PM, devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Beyond the timeframe of this list, but to address one of the statements:

A 1979 book by ASME's Rail Transportation Division includes a figure from an AAR "Quarterly Overheated Journal Report" from 1978 that plots bearing types, and overheated journals for 1972-1978. It reports the 50-50 crossover from "plain journal cars" to "roller bearing cars" occurred in about July 1972. By the summer of 1978, the ratio was still only around 33-67 (2/3rds roller bearing equipped.) By 1978, even though only 1/3 of the fleet, plain bearing cars accounted for 89% of bearing overheats. Failure rates per car mile are not provided.

The book states:

- Roller bearings were made standard by AAR for new cars of 100 tons or more capacity in 1966

- Roller bearings were made standard by AAR for all new cars in 1968

- Roller bearings were made standard by AAR for all rebuilt cars in 1970

"No field lubrication" roller bearings were made standard in 1976

Dave Evans