Presence of Canadian Cars


Armand Premo
 

I would like to open a discussion as to the presence of Canadian cars in the States , but specifically along the northern tier .Armand  Premo


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Armand, one of the common loads for Canadian cars was newsprint, usually shipped in boxcars.


Bruce Smith
 

Armand,

Yes, they were present and not just on northern tier lines.  This subject has been covered numerous times in on this list.  What is your specific question?

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 19, 2017, at 8:40 AM, Armand Premo arm.p.prem@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



I would like to open a discussion as to the presence of Canadian cars in the States , but specifically along the northern tier .Armand  Premo




 

I know that Farmrail had a few (in Oklahoma).





Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni



From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, June 19, 2017 at 8:40 AM
To: STMFC List <stmfc@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Presence of Canadian Cars





I would like to open a discussion as to the presence of Canadian cars in the States , but specifically along the northern tier .Armand Premo





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Eric Hansmann
 

In what era?


Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX


On June 19, 2017 at 7:40 AM "Armand Premo arm.p.prem@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:



I would like to open a discussion as to the presence of Canadian cars in the States , but specifically along the northern tier .Armand  Premo



Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


np328
 

Armand and others,

     I realize Tony Thompson and I may differ on the amount of Canadian cars in the US however he is in California, some states south of the border while Minnesota (always serving to keep Canada safe from Iowa), is on the border and well could see more Canadian cars.

     All joking aside, I have some documents which I have presented on and allow you to draw your own conclusions.

     The file on this site posted by me titled Canadian Cars on US Rails, the one which the sub-descriptor titled “17000 cars on US rails in 1950”, in which a letter from the CN relates that there are 17000 XM’s on US rails in September 1950. That letter relates they are needed for newsprint, lumber, and pulpwood. (And this is just CN cars, not CN and CP, so the total number of Canadian cars must be greater.)   

     The 1950 SCO No. 59 (June 1950, several months earlier) above in the same file relates to a need of Canadian XM’s to be returned.  

Later in my own time frame, I came across AAR bi-monthly reports of 1956 and 1957, where the additional data concerning Canadian cars on US rails was found.

From the Nov. 21, 1956 AAR report came this: Because of traffic patterns, there is always a large number of Canadian boxcars located on US roads. The movement of Canadian grain and paper together with miscellaneous commodities has resulted in a tight box car situation on Canadian roads. Handle under SCO 90.”

Then about six months later in history, Jan. 20, 1957 came this: The boxcar balance between the United States and Canada has favored United States roads during the past months, resulting in short supply in Canada. The loading of Canadian ownership box strictly in accordance with Car Service Rules and the expeditious return of these cars to home rails cannot be urged too strongly.

…………

      I will be the first to state that this is still a works in progress however circling back to the earlier file noted and the other internals NP letters in the above STMF file, I feel that I need many CN cars and my past buying habits have reflected this. TLT has some nice ones though pricey.   

      More-so, I would like to check additional Railway Ages in the 1951-1955 time frame and other sources for SCO notices however can state that I am convinced by what I have found so far, that I believe Canadian cars are given too little credit for their numbers on US rails, most notably in the northern tier states.   

           You can read the above, check the file and letters noted, and are free to draw your own conclusions.

                                                                                                     Jim Dick – St. Paul


Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

 
    The file on this site posted by me titled Canadian Cars on US Rails, the one which the sub-descriptor titled “17000 cars on US rails in 1950”, in which a letter from the CN relates that there are 17000 XM’s on US rails in September 1950. That letter relates they are needed for newsprint, lumber, and pulpwood. (And this is just CN cars, not CN and CP, so the total number of Canadian cars must be greater.)   

     The 1950 SCO No. 59 (June 1950, several months earlier) above in the same file relates to a need of Canadian XM’s to be returned.  


      In 1950, the combined car fleets of CN and CP numbered more than 160,000 cars. I would say that 17,000 cars in the U.S. is very much in the ballpark of the 10 percent I mentioned. But of course that is an average. And I don't know if September would be a peak month for cars in the U.S. or not.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Jim Betz
 

Jim,

  I don't doubt your numbers or references ... but I think that what I 
picked up on during Tony's clinic at BAPM on Saturday is that
"20,000 cars" was not a huge percentage of the freight car fleet.
  I sure that the CN/CP considered it to be critical.  And the
resulting memos are appropriate actions (in order to correct it) -
but it still doesn't justify large numbers of Canadian cars on our
layouts if we are trying to represent.  If you are modeling the
twin cities area then you would want more than someone who
has a layout based in New Orleans ... but I think the number
would still be fairly small.

  Tony - do you agree?
                                                                                  - Jim B. 


Ray Breyer
 

Remember that the N-G model is ONLY for "free roamer" boxcars. Once you factor in specific time frames, areas, railroads, divisions, industries, specific scheduled freights, online interchanges, specific cities, and home road cars, the actual numbers needed based on the model can be diminishingly small.

The N-G model may say that for my "free roamer" fleet I may only need one Canadian car, but if I have an online paper mill and six lumberyards, and model somewhere north of Indianapolis, I'll need FAR more Canadian cars than that. Those additional cars won't be covered by the model at all, which illustrates a useful point: don't focus on these numbers; focus on what you're modeling and the specific car requirements based on that, rather than a statistical model that's only going to address a quarter of your car fleet needs at BEST.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "jimbetz@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:38 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Presence of Canadian Cars



Jim,

  I don't doubt your numbers or references ... but I think that what I 
picked up on during Tony's clinic at BAPM on Saturday is that
"20,000 cars" was not a huge percentage of the freight car fleet.
  I sure that the CN/CP considered it to be critical.  And the
resulting memos are appropriate actions (in order to correct it) -
but it still doesn't justify large numbers of Canadian cars on our
layouts if we are trying to represent.  If you are modeling the
twin cities area then you would want more than someone who
has a layout based in New Orleans ... but I think the number
would still be fairly small.

  Tony - do you agree?
                                                                                  - Jim B. 





Armand Premo
 

One of the major commodities carried by Canadian cars was Newsprint The newspapers in major cities of  the Northeast had an insatiable need  for  this product. .Armand   Premo


 

If you have a large layout that is based on a real or imaginary location close to the Canadian border you should have a lot of Canadian freight cars.  I live in a suburb of Buffalo and have lived here for seventy years.  CP, CN and TH&B cars are and were always very common in the consists of trains on all of the railroads that serviced Buffalo.  Here connections to Canada were made via the International Railway Bridge between Black Rock and Fort Erie and between the USA and Canada at Niagara Falls via the Michigan Central bridge and via the Suspension Bridge.  Today only the International bridge sees freight trains but Canadian cars are very common.  Double sheathed and single sheathed Canadian cars were very common well into the sixties too, well after they disappeared in the States.  Not sure why but CN hoppers were very common in the fifties.   Hugh T Guillaume


np328
 

Jim B,

Originally as posted by Armand is this:

I would like to open a discussion as to the presence of Canadian cars in the States, but specifically along the northern tier. Armand Premo

I responded to the “northern tier” aspect. Others in the past more familiar with New England areas have responded with Canadian traffic in that neck of the words.

Of Canadian cars in New Orleans, I have never researched specifically the New Orleans area or even that region of the south in detail, so I choose not to speculate. As you have brought up Canadian car traffic in New Orleans, I would be happy to hear of any research and factual data that you may have found.

Of Tony Thompson’s presentation, I *hope* that he reprises the presentation at St. Louis this weekend. I am planning to make it and if I do, I will be happy to see him there and talk with him.

                                                                                                   Jim Dick - Roseville, MN
Ray Breyer - well stated.


devansprr
 

All,

Mr. Gilbert's fall of 1946 Southern wheel reports passing through Alexandria, Va show 26 CN and 7 CP XM's out of 1168 XM's recorded. Pretty much an even NB/SB split (17/16) - only 3 of 17 NB's were MTY. Only six US roads outnumbered the combined CN/CP presence - PRR (131), SOU (114), NYC (102), B&O (61), ATSF (52), and MILW (47).

Only one non-XM Canadian car was spotted - a NB CN hopper loaded with coal. Wonder what it carried southbound...

So the CN/CP XM presence may not have been per the G-N weighting, but they outnumbered many roads, at that location, over that period. Your era/location may vary...

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <mguill1224@...> wrote :

If you have a large layout that is based on a real or imaginary location close to the Canadian border you should have a lot of Canadian freight cars.  I live in a suburb of Buffalo and have lived here for seventy years.  CP, CN and TH&B cars are and were always very common in the consists of trains on all of the railroads that serviced Buffalo.  Here connections to Canada were made via the International Railway Bridge between Black Rock and Fort Erie and between the USA and Canada at Niagara Falls via the Michigan Central bridge and via the Suspension Bridge.  Today only the International bridge sees freight trains but Canadian cars are very common.  Double sheathed and single sheathed Canadian cars were very common well into the sixties too, well after they disappeared in the States.  Not sure why but CN hoppers were very common in the fifties.   Hugh T Guillaume


Chuck Soule
 

The percentage of Canadian cars would depend not only on what state you are modeling, but what railroad and which line.   For example, growing up in Tacoma, WA in the 50s, I clearly remember seeing Canadian boxcars on trains to Portland, OR.  They were undoubtedly bound mostly for California, and probably were mostly lumber or wheat. 

If they were in NP trains, they were probably routed to Portland, then to the SP to California.  If they were on GN trains, they were probably routed to the SP&S and WP via Keddie Wye. 

It would have been much less likely to see them on UP trains through Tacoma because the UP stopped at Seattle, while the GN and NP both continued to British Columbia.  UP would have picked up Canadian cars via the Spokane International, routed to Pendleton, OR, then likely to Salt Lake before going to California via southern Nevada. 

There was  probably a much lower percentage of Canadian cars on eastbound NP or GN trains because CP or CN would have hauled them as far east for lumber (or west for grain) as possible before sending them across the border.

I'm going to inquire from another list to confirm my understanding, but I am pretty sure there was a train that originated in BC and went to California essentially as a unit train or as a block within a regular southbound freight.

Chuck Soule



Tim O'Connor
 


At 3% it's not that far off from the binomial random distribution, based on Tony's
mention of an average of 16,000 Canadian box cars south of the border. :-)

As you move north from Alexandria, Canadian newsprint cars would definitely swell the
percentages - newspapers in DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Jersey and New York used
a LOT of newsprint every day! Even in the 1990's Conrail moved solid trainloads of
Canadian paper every day south from Montreal.

Tim O'Connor




Mr. Gilbert's fall of 1946 Southern wheel reports passing through Alexandria, Va show 26 CN and 7 CP XM's out of 1168 XM's recorded. Pretty much an even NB/SB split (17/16) - only 3 of 17 NB's were MTY. Only six US roads outnumbered the combined CN/CP presence - PRR (131), SOU (114), NYC (102), B&O (61), ATSF (52), and MILW (47).

Only one non-XM Canadian car was spotted - a NB CN hopper loaded with coal. Wonder what it carried southbound...

So the CN/CP XM presence may not have been per the G-N weighting, but they outnumbered many roads, at that location, over that period. Your era/location may vary...

Dave Evans


Tim O'Connor
 


Chuck, although that seems very logical, one must be VERY aware that a TARIFF
on freight from BC to California allowed multiple railroads to solicit loads for
that route, and it was the SHIPPER who chose which solicitations to employ.

So, for example, a load via the SI might be routed to Portland, and from there
the SP to California. Or the GN might turn a car over to the UP in Portland, and
from there it could go to Salt Lake and then via the LA&SL to southern California.
And so on. Traffic did NOT always travel via the shortest route. The SP for example
routed vast amounts of Oregon lumber via Texas (Sunset Route) and St Louis (Cotton
Belt) to the midwest and east coast - a very lengthy route but SP got to keep the
lion's share of the revenue. And no doubt lots of shippers' agents got treated to
excellent 3-star restaurant dinners on the SP's dime in order to win that traffic.

Tim O'Connor




It would have been much less likely to see them on UP trains through Tacoma because the UP stopped at Seattle, while the GN and NP both continued to British Columbia.  UP would have picked up Canadian cars via the Spokane International, routed to Pendleton, OR, then likely to Salt Lake before going to California via southern Nevada. 

Chuck Soule


Rob M.
 

Since newspaper was the Internet of the steam era it is worth study. Lots of daily papers to be printed and most if not all of the newsprint shipped by rail.

Is it possible to determine what the percentage of domestic newsprint versus Canadian/imported?

It is a heavy commodity - what factor would shipping distance play?

Rob Mondichak


Tim O'Connor
 


I found this very interesting graphic that shows that in the 1950's a huge
percentage of Canadian newsprint was EXPORTED - and I'm guessing that most of
it went to the United States.

https://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb03/1957/img/acyb03_19570518-eng.jpg

Six million tons at 50 tons per carload - that's 120,000 car loads or 328 loads
per day exported - if that all went to the USA, it would be the DOMINANT source
of newsprint used in the USA! Shipping distance would appear to be irrelevant
in this case. :-)

Newspaper (as we know it) was invented in Quebec, Canada. Most paper made in
New England that I know about was/is not newsprint. And I think most paper made
in Washington and Oregon and Wisconsin is not newsprint either. Newsprint was only
a small percentage (20%-25% ?) of total paper production in the 1950's.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------

Since newspaper was the Internet of the steam era it is worth study.  Lots of daily papers to be printed and most if not all of the newsprint shipped by rail.

Is it possible to determine what the percentage of domestic newsprint versus Canadian/imported?

It is a heavy commodity - what factor would shipping distance play?

Rob Mondichak


Paul Koehler
 

Tim:

 

There might be a few exceptions, The Los Angeles Times owned Publishers Paper in the Portland area.  They produced all of the news paper for their needs.  Half was shipped by rail and half was shipped by barge.

 

Paul

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 8:58 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

 

 


I found this very interesting graphic that shows that in the 1950's a huge
percentage of Canadian newsprint was EXPORTED - and I'm guessing that most of
it went to the United States.

https://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb03/1957/img/acyb03_19570518-eng.jpg

Six million tons at 50 tons per carload - that's 120,000 car loads or 328 loads
per day exported - if that all went to the USA, it would be the DOMINANT source
of newsprint used in the USA! Shipping distance would appear to be irrelevant
in this case. :-)

Newspaper (as we know it) was invented in Quebec, Canada. Most paper made in
New England that I know about was/is not newsprint. And I think most paper made
in Washington and Oregon and Wisconsin is not newsprint either. Newsprint was only
a small percentage (20%-25% ?) of total paper production in the 1950's.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------

Since newspaper was the Internet of the steam era it is worth study.  Lots of daily papers to be printed and most if not all of the newsprint shipped by rail.

Is it possible to determine what the percentage of domestic newsprint versus Canadian/imported?

It is a heavy commodity - what factor would shipping distance play?

Rob Mondichak


Dave Nelson
 

Come on guys… it’s not so hard to figure this out: Canadian boxcars were not free rolling cars._They were limited to a couple points of entry to the US Rail net so they had to show up there on the inbound and most likely returned via that same location in higher  numbers.  Once they got to the first yard in the US they would begin to disperse.  After reaching their destination in the US and being unloaded they were not allowed to pick up any loads for other points in the US.  They could carry a load back to Canada.  Per Canada’s own collection of statistics on average (post war years) only 10% (give or take a bit) of all boxcar loadings in Canada were destined for the US._

Given the above it stands to reason they are simply not the same as US boxcars for the purpose of spotting foreign road boxcars.  No amount of but the northern tier, newsprint, mouse in beer bottle theories will change that.

 

OTOH if you want to think of them somewhat like gons or perhaps tankcars, you’re going to be closer to the mark as those cars were not really free rolling cars.  Which is to say when it comes to Canadian boxcars, if your interest is far from one of those few points of entry I suggest you follow the 10% lading guideline: you’ll get a tad less than 1% probability for either CP or CN.  If that is not right for you and you choose to use the notion they’re more like gons or tankcars because you’re modeling the CV, you can do whatever you damn well want and AFAIK nobody will have any basis to criticize your decision because nobody (AFAIK) has got a large enough sample size to propose a reasonable alternative theory for you to follow.


Dave Nelson

The Nelson half of the Nelson-Gilbert theory.